2021 Worlds: Ladies FS "Thoughts and Observations"

[Amei]

No other place to really post this, but they did a good job decorating and staging the arena.

It was nice, I wish they had taken a queue from US Nationals kiss and Cry or the third stage of the cup event in Russia where they had the digital displays of fans with signs of support for their favorite skaters. It would have been a nice way to involve fans in the event.

 

[Blades of Passion]

My point was to talk about Karen's performance and to explain why Karen's components scores are maybe not so high as you (and some others) think they should be, and that independetly of any other skaters performance. To explain why Liza components scores, on their own, are higher than people expected to be is another subject but i can try to explain that too. I'm trying to compare skaters to some written scale as judges do, rather than to compare any individual skater with any other individual skater to see if scores are fine. And in practice, that would be impossible, because you will always find a lack of logic in those comparations.

Liza was horribly overscored on PCS. There is no explanation except politics and it's funny how you keep trying to wiggle around this. You haven't explained anything and yet claim you can. You also tried to say Karen deserves high scores for Interpretation and has good speed, and yet the PCS did not reflect any big differences in the categories that you claim there should be. So therefore even according to you, the judging was wrong.

I don't know why you continue to talk about skating as if it's merely a few words on piece of paper. That's now how it works, nor how judges are supposed to operate. The superficial PCS scale listing of "outstanding, excellent, very good" doesn't even mean anything, it gives no real indication of how something should be scored. The only way to properly score something is to have a point of reference about exactly what kind of qualities deserve a certain score. Skaters inherently MUST be compared or else there is no way to even have a scoring system. How does any judge know what is supposed to be 9.0 on PCS or 10.0 or whatever it may be, without knowing what that is supposed to look like - aka, having seen a performance with those qualities and comparing that skating to the performance they are judging.

The way you try to hold up the judges and say they are infallible also doesn't even make sense logically, because there are significant differences of opinion seen within the panels. It's impossible to say "all the judges are correct and the final score was right", because inherently some of the judges need to be wrong, or else your opinion can no longer be supported. You can't have it both ways.

 

[chuckm]

There is one point I'd like to bring up. Look at the judging panel for the ladies:

Here's the lineup for the SP: SVK BEL USA FRA ITA CZE SWE RUS NED

No JPN or KOR

For the FS: CHN CZE SWE RUS SLO SVK DEN GEO USA NED

CHN, SLO and DEN were added to replace: BEL ITA FRA
Year after year, including this one, RUS is on the panel for every discipline, and RUS is rarely replaced, but judges both SP and FS.

This year, USA got all four disciplines, but that is highly unusual. Most years, USA is lucky to get three, and rarely gets Ladies.
In Ladies, Pairs and Dance the US judge was on both panels; in Men, only the FS,

CAN got only Pairs and Dance this time around, but only the SP for Pairs.

JPN got 1 judge----in Ice Dance, and only for the RD.
KOR got 1 judge---in Men, and only for the FS

There is something very wrong that JPN and KOR aren't picked for the disciplines where their strength is.

 

[readernick]

I was rooting for Trusova and Tuktemysheva. I'm happy they got medals. The PCS scores some judges gave them are objectively indefensible. If you don't know this, it's because you haven't looked at them.

This. Trusova has shown a lot of improvement this year but none of that improvement was evident in her LP. She took out all the art so she could land quads. Tuk is amazing and it I love her, but she got rid of her original SP which did show some real artistic growth in favor of a far less interesting program that allowed her to be clean. Anna is a nice skater but her SS marks were objectively indefensible and that LP is boring and quite empty in the beginning.

 

[readernick]

There is something very wrong that JPN and KOR aren't picked for the disciplines where their strength is

I actually think it would be better if countries only judged disciplines which were there weaknesses. It would lead to less biased judging, I think.

 

[chuckm]

I agree with that, but then why is Russia judging both programs in every discipline? By the same logic, they should be judging only MEN.

 

[Jontor]

I will preface this by saying that I have no intention of discussing whether the podium order was correct or not.

However, today the judging showed once again a large scale problem in figure skating that, imo, contributes to its constantly falling popularity basically everywhere but Russia and Japan:

PCS. Theoretically, they should reward performance, interpretation etc, “artistry“ if you want it. Let‘s look at the PCS of the top 8:

Shcherbakova: 73
Tuk: 69
Trusova: 66
Chen: 67
Hendrickx: 66
Sakamoto: 67
Kihira: 69
Mikutina: 61

Would ANY casual viewer at the Olympics understand these kinds of scores watching the programs one after another? How is it possible that a non existent program by Trusova with two falls scores the exact same as Hendrickx with a clean performance and 5 points higher than a relatively clean Mikutina? Why does Kihira get two points more in PCS than Chen who had arguably the best skate artistically of the night? Why is Shcherbakova so far ahead of anybody else even though she, too, messed up her performance?

I know the answer and it‘s reputation + politicking. But from a casual standpoint it makes NO SENSE and will anybody really be encouraged to learn more about this sport if it‘s so thoroughly illogical in its very essence?

I don‘t think so. That‘s sadly and honestly my biggest takeaway here. The three medalists fought and I‘m happy for them. But the rest was a pure mess.

I agree with you here...a bit. This is why my casual FS viewing friends never understand the scoring. In their minds, if you fall, you lose. The problem is that they think the most beautiful performance wins. That's their take on this sport. They have no knowledge of Lutzes vs Toeloops, jumps vs spins, or even a double vs quads.
And maybe that's the problem with this sport. It will never get mainstream recognition if people don't know what a Lutz is.
The problem with PCS is that it is not entirely an artistic score. SS and TR can count as tech really.
The big problem though imo is that the judges give scores just as they did in the 6.0 era. They don't bother about SS or IN, they just rank the ladies the way they think they should end up. That's why Trusova gets high TR points although she lacks them.
What to do? The PCS system needs to be scrutinized. I don't have any solution though...

 

[KwanfordWife]

I haven't posted here in years, despite lurking quite a bit but I had a thought watching Worlds...no one on that podium will factor into the Olympics. It's sad. You watch these young women tear their bodies apart for jumps but not one has a decent spin, edge, or artistic element. And they are losing the ability to do clean jumps.

I simply don't understand the point of the sacrificial lamb obsession the Russian federation has adopted.

 

[anonymoose_au]

I was rooting for Trusova and Tuktemysheva. I'm happy they got medals.

I'm confused by this...you're happy they got medals, but think they were way overscored... Without which they wouldn't have got the medals in the first place.

How can you be happy for them then? They didn't deserve them.

 

[chuckm]

I just don't enjoy watching Trusova. You know she's going to splat, only the number of splats is undetermined at the start of the program. There is no feel for or connection with the music evident in her performance; it is only the execution of jumps that seems to engage her attention. Trusova's free skates are jump exhibitions, not programs.

Scherbakova is slightly better, but she is obviously in a growth spurt and it remains to be seen if she survives it with her jumps intact. But we know she will continue to attempt them to the bitter end. At least she does connect with her music.

Liza Tuk is better yet, but I have to say she lands the 3as but they aren't awe-inspiring as they aren't big and often flawed. Some of her programs are a bit boring. But at least they are programs.

 

[Amei]

I just don't enjoy watching Trusova. You know she's going to splat, only the number of splats is undetermined at the start of the program. There is no feel for or connection with the music evident in her performance; it is only the execution of jumps that seems to engage her attention. Trusova's free skates are jump exhibitions, not programs.

I think Trusova prior to Worlds had shown some improvement in performing and trying to connect the choreography music; similar to the GPF her 5 quad FS it basically means she focuses solely on setup and execution of the jumps. Unfortunately based on her interview post-Worlds she is dead set on going for the 5 quads. Hopefully they keep a layout with minimal changes for next season and let her go through the season attempting 5 quads perhaps by the end of the season she will get better execution of them because at Worlds she only had 2 called with positive GOE the first lutz combination and the flip. And hopefully she gets better at performing choreography more with the 5 quads vs. what was done at Worlds or the GPF if she does the 5 quad season throughout the year.

 

[readernick]

I'm confused by this...you're happy they got medals, but think they were way overscored... Without which they wouldn't have got the medals in the first place.

How can you be happy for them then? They didn't deserve them.

You praise and love a skater and still see they were objectively overscored. It didn't mean they still wouldn't have won. They might still have won.

 

[anonymoose_au]

You praise and love a skater and still see they were objectively overscored. It didn't mean they still wouldn't have won. They might still have won.

Yeah but the arguments I see here are so and so got OUTRAGEOUSLY overscored. I wouldn't use that description unless I thought someone was overscored by like 15 or 20 points, in which case there goes Sasha and Liza's claims to medals.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Haven’t watched much lately but found time to watch the TV Broadcast of the ladies FS tonight.

I noticed Sasha took some nasty full send splats that would have sent most of us to the front desk for some ice and yet she got up and skated right back to full speed without any hint of hesitation. Almost instantaneously. I noticed some other skaters landing simpler programs with way less attack and power. Like I’m saying they landed a decent enough 3-3 and yet the next moments of the program still didn’t have a sense of confidence and attack. To me that is more of a negative then going all in and falling YET still dusting yourself off and keeping it together without much break in the programs intensity level. YMMV

I’m sympathetic to those who crave simpler programs where the jumps are landed more but I also think like the men once were the ladies are now. On the edge of an increasing difficulty level that isn’t yet realized but I think in time what was once impossible will be normalized and far more consistent. Kids everywhere like in other sports see their sports stars as the ones setting the bar and will find a way to rise to and master it and push it even further.

Work and just life in general has pulled me away from being as avid of a fan as I once was. Well that and the retirement of my favorite skater. Still...it’s nice to know that I can check in infrequently and see a fire still burning in the heart of my new go to. Tiny Boss and her infectious smile and uncompromising style of attack keep me checking in.

Cheers to all and to everyone who competes and gives us everything they have to enjoy and cheers to all who post their thoughts on this board. I don’t post often anymore but I still lurk on the regs

 

[ice coverage]

... Year after year, including this one, RUS is on the panel for every discipline, and RUS is rarely replaced, but judges both SP and FS. ...

Some fact-checking:

For 2019 Worlds, Russia was drawn to have judges in 2 disciplines: Pairs and Dance.​

For 2018 Worlds, Russia was drawn to have judges in 2 disciplines: Men and Pairs.​

For 2017 Worlds, Russia was drawn to have judges in 3 disciplines: Men, Pairs, and Dance.​

For 2016 Worlds, Russia was drawn to have judges in 2 disciplines: Pairs and Dance.​

​

Over the 9 disciplines over 4 years, there were only 3 instances of the Russian judge being used for both segments.​

2019 Worlds:
Elena FOMINA was judge only for Pairs FS. Not for Pairs SP.
Alla SHEKHOVTSOVA was judge only for RD. Not for FD.

2018 Worlds:
Igor OBRAZTSOV was judge only for Men SP. Not for Men FS.
Olga KOZHEMYAKINA was judge only for Pairs FS. Not for Pairs SP.

2017 Worlds:
Olga KOZHEMIAKINA was judge only for Men FS. Not for Men SP.
Elena FOMINA was judge for both Pairs SP and Pairs FS.
Maira ABASOVA was judge for both SD and FD.

2016 Worlds:
Olga KOZHEMIAKINA was judge only for Pairs FS. Not for Pairs SP.
Lolita LABUNSKAIYA was judge for both SD and FD.

... This year, USA got all four disciplines, but that is highly unusual. Most years, USA is lucky to get three, and rarely gets Ladies.
In Ladies, Pairs and Dance the US judge was on both panels; in Men, only the FS. ...

For 2019 Worlds, USA drawn to have judge in 1 discipline: Ladies.
For 2018 Worlds, USA drawn to have judges in 3 disciplines: Men, Ladies, Pairs.
For 2017 Worlds, USA drawn to have judges in 2 disciplines: Pairs and Dance.
For 2016 Worlds, USA drawn to have judges in 3 disciplines: Men, Pairs, Dance.
For this 4-year period, USA was drawn to have judges in a total of 9 disciplines -- exactly the same number as Russia.

And USA was drawn to judge Ladies for the last three editions of Worlds: 2021, 2019, 2018.
At 2019 Worlds, Deborah CURRIE was judge both for Ladies SP and Ladies FS.
At 2018 Worlds, Anne G. SHEAN was judge only for Ladies SP. Not for Ladies FS.

 

[FelineFairy]

I don't know why you continue to talk about skating as if it's merely a few words on piece of paper. That's now how it works, nor how judges are supposed to operate. The superficial PCS scale listing of "outstanding, excellent, very good" doesn't even mean anything, it gives no real indication of how something should be scored. The only way to properly score something is to have a point of reference about exactly what kind of qualities deserve a certain score. Skaters inherently MUST be compared or else there is no way to even have a scoring system. How does any judge know what is supposed to be 9.0 on PCS or 10.0 or whatever it may be, without knowing what that is supposed to look like - aka, having seen a performance with those qualities and comparing that skating to the performance they are judging.

The problem with PCS is that it is not entirely an artistic score. SS and TR can count as tech really.
The big problem though imo is that the judges give scores just as they did in the 6.0 era. They don't bother about SS or IN, they just rank the ladies the way they think they should end up.

They also know the rules but , perhaps, have too much to do to judge all components well. There should be separate panels for PCS and TES that way the judges could accurately determine GOE and PCS as separate things.

I actually think it would be better if countries only judged disciplines which were there weaknesses. It would lead to less biased judging, I think

There are obviously problems with the application (and IMHO construction) of the judging system. What BoP is writing, is absolutely correct from the point of view of how the system is constructed, how the rules are written. But the very fact that after every competition people are arguing so much makes one suspect that something is not right with the system. The first thing one notices when trying to get into PCS rules deeper (and that's what I tried to do, asking questions when I started to post here) is a certain vagueness in formulating the rules. This vagueness IMHO leads to a need for interpretation and instruction, which may be that behind-the-scenes factor that makes interested spectators who know the rules protest.
As for me, I cannot see any objectivity in PCS, and every competition convinces me more and more that currently they are a tool for placing athletes, something like remainders from the 6.0 system.

Yes, SS and TR are inherently more objective. I can't see why they cannot be assessed by the technical panel. Add a controller for those two components, why not?

I definitely agree with those who would like to see a separate panel for PCS judging. But only after PCS rules are objectified. Otherwise we get the famous "That's how I see it". Just to give a small example of subjectivity vs. possible objectivity, people here argue a lot about relating to music, skating through music, hitting (or not) musical accents, etc. And everyone has their own tastes. If such phrases come into PCS evaluation, it's nothing but perfect ground for subjectivity, bias etc. But if, say, PCS judges had a list of accents previously marked in the programme, and could find that all jumps, or half of them, or even only one were connected to those accents, that would be objective.

As for panels, in diving if I am not mistaken there is a rule that NO judges from the countries which the athletes represent are allowed to judge major events. Unfortunately, there are also errors in judgement, preferences and hidden bias. Why? Because the judges from countries where that sport is less developed are less qualified and rely on the status of the athletes and the country they represent. Which means that they are prone to not noticing small errors of Chinese athletes, who are invincible in diving. Of course they see big errors, but small ones can also decide placements.
To get back to the thread topic, I was not greatly impressed by any performance here. My impression is that the podium is deserved, but not outstanding or memorable. And though some of the performances of those who didn't take the podium were nice, but again, not to the extent of being winning. That said, I had happy tears for Liza, and was happy for Anna and Sasha, but this is totally subjective, a fan's feelings, and not a ground for arguments with other fan's feelings.

 

[Skatesocs]

^ You can go the way of Ski-Jumping and select panels based off a centralised body. These panels have been found to be less-biased than a typical judge, and in fact not showing the problem of block-judging empirically, compared to skating judges who are found to be more biased than a typical judge (lmao). https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/facult...ter-sports-judging-its-lessons-organizational

 

[dearskate]

My take from this Worlds is how totally uninspiring the ladies were in comparison with the men! So many men had superbly interpretive skates with so much relationship to their music. I didn’t see any ladies who truly skated to the music. Where are the Jason Browns, Yuzuru Hanyus, Kevin Amoses, Michail Kolyadas in the ladies??? I felt completely flat after the ladies free. One of the most disappointing events for many years.

 

[dearskate]

I also would wholeheartedly support a separate judging panel to award the pcs. Musical interpretation and artistry should be marked separately and should not be related to the technical score. the two things can be poles apart in both directions and yet they are never scored like that. Skating skills and transitions could still be marked by the technical panel but performance, choreography and interpretation should be judged by someone able to watch the whole performance without having to continually look down at a screen to type in numbers, and also someone who has a knowledge and feeling for music.

 

[LiamForeman]

I haven't posted here in years, despite lurking quite a bit but I had a thought watching Worlds...no one on that podium will factor into the Olympics. It's sad. You watch these young women tear their bodies apart for jumps but not one has a decent spin, edge, or artistic element. And they are losing the ability to do clean jumps.

I simply don't understand the point of the sacrificial lamb obsession the Russian federation has adopted.

I agree. I was so disappointed in all 3 Russian performances. Anna just needs to never attempt a camel position because of her ugly, lazy unturned-out feet (really her only excellent spin is the layback). Liza was just slow, plodding, cross-over queen with no transitions, stalking jumps and no memorable program. Sasha is always a train wreck. Makes me yearn for the Olympic team being composed of Kamila, Aliona, and Daria. At least their programs and spins are nice to look at. The top 3 this past week at Worlds was depressing and well, ugly.