Janet Lynn: A Measured Fall from Freedom | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Janet Lynn: A Measured Fall from Freedom

When this article was written, IJS was still new. The first years of COP and IJS gave us a lot of ugly skating with too many programs filled with moves which had nothing to do with the music at that moment, but were just there for the sake of points. Those first years also gave us many programs with skaters doing moves because now they had to if they wanted the points, while those moves didn't really "fit" that skater, when a skater would do that move it wasn't pleasing to watc, but at least the points were in even though my eyes were hurting from watching that. I stopped watching most of the skating in those years. Sometimes I'd just watch a recap of Worlds or Euros. Of course there were a few nice programs, there always are, but the majority of competitive skating was not esthetically pleasing to watch anymore.

But in recent years, I am enjoying watching skating again. The system has improved. I love watching jumps, well executed jumps, but they mean nothing to me if they aren't part of a program which takes me along until the end and sometimes a program is so special it might even make me forget that I'm watching skating. Those are the programs I remember the best. I like the progress of the sport, I'm excited by the new jumps, but I also fear that since it's new that so many skaters are attempting them, it might take a decade or 2 before we know the complete damage and we find out what is the best way to teach and perform them, without damaging the skaters anymore. I love to see artistry (real artistry, not the paint by numbers artistrty) combined with great jumps., but not with the cost of skaters losing their health.
 
1. We don't know why the every four year fan watches and without controlled surveys we never will.
This question and also why people are not watching. I wonder what the results would look like and if there would be national, as well as other variable, trends? I can't help thinking that the way my circle of friends responds, and who among them is watching at all, is, in large part, influenced by how the sport has been presented where we live and the forms of media via which we consume it. The balance of value placed on artistry versus athleticism within demographics would, I suspect, also be reflected.

I believe presentation also plays a role in shifting, increasing or stagnating the demographics of who is watching. If commentators bemoan the lack of beauty and a complex scoring system that will have one effect whereas utilizing screen graphics to compare jump trajectories and explaining, preferably graphically so as not to interrupt the performances, where skaters lose points on their elements as they happen will have a different one. This also raises the whole issue of onscreen information overload during skates, which turns away one segment of viewers while simultaneously appealing to a different one.
 
I hate to double post - and with such a MASSIVE second post at that - but, reading some of the response in this thread, I see two big issues that continue being raised in most discussions of this kind and I want to address those separately.

Messy but ambitious, fall-riddled skates beating clean, simpler ones

I'd be fine with still larger penalties, even complete loss of value, for all failed elements (not just jumps) at this point. The scoring was set up to encourage growth on the technical side and I think we've achieved that now. You don't get much for failed skills in other sports and there's no reason skating should be different.

Coupled with that, I'd prefer higher relative base values assigned to the most difficult moves and, again, I'm not just talking about jumps. There should be a natural progression from entry level to elite element with increasing gaps as the rarity of execution grows. If the points for effort are removed, there needs to remain good incentive to continue challenging what's considered at any time to be the top achievable level. A quad axel, as a singles jump or as a throw jump, if anyone can pull one off, should be a game changer today. Edge mastery and spins or lifts unlike anything the competition arrives with should also provide substantial rewards. This would open things up for creative approaches without penalizing those who focus on a specific skillset where they have exceptional aptitude. What I don't want to see, and what would cause me, and other fans like me, to disappear is a devaluation of technical elements to bring them in line points-wise with artistic interpretation. This is a sport, and to be taken seriously as such the athletic skill has to matter. How little relative value is given to high risk throws in pairs, for example, has soured me quite a bit on that discipline when it had always previously been my favourite.

Of course, the above restructuring doesn't work without commentary and graphics that clearly demonstrate how each skater or team gains and loses points. Otherwise, you get complaints about Skater X, who blazes around the rink with what seems like effortless speed and control without missing a single complicated step, beating much slower Skater Y, with the three quads but wonky spins and poor ice coverage free skate, and vice versa. It would be like the Patrick Chan years, only intensified and across all disciplines.

The danger element

Any endeavour where participants push their bodies to achieve greater heights comes with physical pain. It might surprise folks to know that I, one of the louder voices saying artistry doesn't matter to me as much as jumps do, studied ballet at a pretty decent level for years. Ballet isn't an Olympic sport, nor should it be, and no one will say it isn't artistic, but it wrecks your body. My feet are horrid, I have arthritis in one and there are shoes I'll never be able to wear, but I'm fine with that because I love to dance.

As for sports, well, I had my first major surgery in my teens and I think you'll find that's a common theme for athletes. I understand why fans want to protect figure skaters; many of them are still kids when they arrive on the world stage. Think about this though - is the average gymnast injury-free? What about skiers or basketball players? Life changing injuries can and do happen in sports and that's magnified at the elite level. Figure skaters are going to overtrain, they're going to take up crazy diets and spend hours crashing down on their hip bones repeating a jump until they land it. Even limiting what jumps (or lifts or throws or steps) are permitted won't stop the injuries, they'll just overtrain other elements and push their flexibility and endurance limits, sometimes until they hurt themselves, because they want to win. For some, the physical (and time and mental) sacrifices are worth it, for others they aren't. Maybe that in part defines the line between elite and casual athlete.

Now about training methods. I've seen nothing to indicate Eteri, for instance, is causing her students more harm than they'd be exposed to at other schools. How are her students at higher risk than Alysa Liu or Vincent Zhou are at their respective training bases? The Japanese women seem to be getting on with things and not hand-wringing too much.
 
At first, I didn't like the idea of on-screen scoring details. But now, I've gotten so used to seeing it as a guide for the elements and to track the scoring, that when it's not there at some comps, or there's a glitch during a major comp and the detailed scoring is missing, I find it somewhat irritating. OTOH, sometimes the scoring box distracts from enjoyment of a good performance because my attention gets divided. Or, my jaw drops at overdone or less than fair GOE.

The reality is though that all the scores being shown can change in the final outcome. And that can be distracting too, when a high tech score is drastically whittled down. Sometimes such whittling seems like scoring management for placement juggling, albeit that the drop generally has to due with errors noted by tech panel. One overriding issue is that tech panels don't always have good camera angles, and too often make mistakes, or give less weight to poor technique into jumps. The focus is heavily weighted on URs upon landing, rather than on wrong edges into jumps, and pre-rotations.

There are myriad problems the sport isn't bothering to identify, much less are they considering measured, long term plans for remedying things responsibly and effectively. There's too much conflict-of-interest thinking, and band-aid fix approaches. The motivations and reasons for rules changes don't effectively address root problems. Rules are enacted to benefit judges' manipulation rather than to benefit skaters or contribute to responsible development and growth of the sport.

ISU and federation execs have made so many ill-advised decisions without inclusive research and long term study, to the point where there now exists an unwieldy mountain of problems unable to be adequately resolved in the short term. Skaters and fans continue going along to get along, trying to enjoy the brighter moments and good things that are compelling about the sport.

We have gotten used to making do in the run down palace of a sport filled with amazing, yet forgotten historical treasures. It is a palace blessed by vibrant yet ill-served athletes, and supported by a handful of diehard fans who place their faith in the wellspring of youthful promise and uncanny magical moments. There's always the hope that our figure skating palace's fading glory can be rediscovered, restored, and renewed. I feel though that renewal won't happen until antiquated thinking and old-fashioned, stuck-in-mud lack of vision is eradicated. And that hasn't begun to happen yet within power-hungry, conflict-of-interest ISU management.
 
The scoring was set up to encourage growth on the technical side and I think we've achieved that now. You don't get much for failed skills in other sports and there's no reason skating should be different.
Yes, but it's generally tech growth rewarded and sometimes over-rewarded via rep scoring and fs country politics. This, at the expense of good, basic training across-the-board. Too many skaters are focused on jumping and accomplishing the acrobatic tricks without possessing adequate blade skills, coupled with no understanding of the sport's history. Too many young skaters and young generation fans are over-focused on the last ten years, while ignoring, dismissing or having little interest in the importance of historic legacy.

That's why it was so nice recently to see young skaters at the new facility in Boston, joining a zoom session with old-timers reminiscing about the vital, living history of The Skating Club of Boston. More interaction of this nature needs to happen in the sport, especially while a link to the past still exists via the old-timers who are active among us. A strong link to the past is essential for viable and resilient growth in the present.

I also think the work that Rafael A is doing in California, along with other excellent teachers and technicians nationally and internationally, is crucial. The emergence of collaborative training centers and advances in sports therapy and injury prevention, have been vital to the positive growth that has been occurring in the sport. Still, the lack of vision and responsible forward-thinking at the top, needs to change asap.
 
Last edited:
One of the things I remembered most from an interview with Natalia Mishkutionok (who skated in the 90s under the 6.0 system) is that she said that one of the advantages of the IJS is that skaters get to know what they have to work on. The 6.0 system gave no information on that what so ever; the IJS does. Whatever its disadvantages (and Janet does have a point on some issues), and the need for more creativity within the possible points gathered, the IJS has brought a lot. Not that I understand everything (especially the PCS marks which seem to rise with the increase of the BV, and that is unfair) but I do think in the end it is a better system. But it will continue to need tweaking!
 
More importantly, some posters commenting don't appear to truly understand exactly what Janet Lynn was pointing out that remains true and still needs to be responsibly addressed: Foundational skills are lacking across-the-board; and an historic understanding of how the sport developed is still grievously lacking. The sport needs to make effective changes to benefit skaters, rather than enacting hit-or-miss band-aid measures to satisfy the political power interests of ISU higher-ups or to cloak drawbacks and inconsistences of the woefully overwhelmed and in some instances, careless and irresponsible judges.

There are some posters who have been focusing on Lynn's character flaws and on her socially conservative leanings, rather than paying attention to the truths she articulately outlined ten years ago!
 
Last edited:
One of the things I remembered most from an interview with Natalia Mishkutionok (who skated in the 90s under the 6.0 system) is that she said that one of the advantages of the IJS is that skaters get to know what they have to work on. The 6.0 system gave no information on that what so ever; the IJS does. Whatever its disadvantages (and Janet does have a point on some issues), and the need for more creativity within the possible points gathered, the IJS has brought a lot. Not that I understand everything (especially the PCS marks which seem to rise with the increase of the BV, and that is unfair) but I do think in the end it is a better system. But it will continue to need tweaking!
That's a fair observation, which clearly shows that those within the sport try to hold onto to the positives of IJS because there's no other way to cope but to face forward and try to see the rainbow and a possible path toward the light it gives. Let's look at the core of the ongoing scoring conundrum. It is of course true that the judging system in figure skating needed to be thoughtfully revised. In the 1980s and 1990s, there were calls from responsible, concerned people within the sport for the ISU to analyze, address and enact scoring changes. In a fly-swatting move, ISU top brass agreed to the formation of a small group to work on improving the scoring system. So, that very group was in the process of working on this complex, far-reaching systemic issue at the time of the 2002 Olympics judging scandal. Unfortunately, the ISU, out of fear of IOC fury post-scandal, quickly rushed an incomplete new scoring system into place, one that at first erroneously gave judges anonymity, let's not forget. Thus, ever since, the ISU has been in the process of often inadequately making constant tweaks to IJS.

Of course, some tweaks have been helpful, and there are a number of positives, but overall, it is a backwards way of going about change. The inept approach has led to a multitude of unresolved concerns endlessly being debated and batted back-and-forth, not the least being the ingrained practice of manipulating PCS scoring to the point where the categories and how they are judged make no sense. Overall confusion and inertia ensues. There needs to be a way to consider all of the drawbacks of training athletes, judging performances, and organizing competitions, in conjunction with a focus on what's best for the athletes' steady development and safety. In addition, reach back and examine the historic legacy to gain crucial guidance for best practices. Also, find ways to educate, appreciate and include fans in a learning process and a growth process that will benefit the entire sport.

Of course, positive things are taking place, but that is in spite of poor management and haphazard Mom-Pop, conflict-of-interest approaches to decision-making by the ISU. As I said earlier, it is the wonderful skaters, coaches and choreographers who are pushing the sport forward. It is a leaderless, visionless sport detached from its rich history. It is a sport that doesn't deserve any of those participants past or present who are responsible for its continuing vigor and vibrancy.
 
To give some examples, as Lynn noted, a wonderful delayed axel can be breathtaking, and utilized with the music for expressive storytelling. Pair elements can be exciting and gorgeous to look at when well-performed by a couple in sync and well-matched. But removing 30 seconds from the pairs fps forces a pair team to move from element-to-element without any opportunity for storytelling. Kudos to the work of great pairs choreographers, but the system still needs to aid the work they are doing because there often is something missing and repetitive in programs that always must cram in technical tricks for point-gathering. I'd rather see the amazing pairs innovation that's taking place be aligned with skaters able to also take a breath and have more time and freedom to tell a story. They should be able to focus on simple moves combined with more difficult maneuvers, instead of the often disconcerting rush from trick-to -trick, to the point where viewers have a hard time digesting all the moves in a satisfying way. Free programs need to be freed!

Everyone who loves the sport of figure skating need to understand how important blade skills are and why acquiring good SS is so important to the best performances we witness. That connection is missing. Even for me, as someone who has followed the sport for too many years to count, I'm still learning about what proper blade technique consists of. I am completely gob-smacked by what I am learning. The makeup of the boot and the blades, and how the edges are utilized to gain speed, ice coverage and proper positioning going into a jump have always been a mystery, or something not clearly visible to the naked eye. But foundational blade skills are essential to creative innovation, as well as to technical evolution. For example, what the namesakes/ inventors of jumps [Ulrich Salchow; Alois Lutz; Werner Rittberger (loop jump); Bruce Mapes (toe loop & flip jumps); Axel Paulsen] were able to do in creating unique acrobatic elements was because they were proficient in what? Bingo: Skating Skills; Blade Skills; Precision edgework based on figure-eight tracings practice, eh! At least, they surely knew how to use their blades, or they brainstormed through trial and effort, and via fun skating outings to find new ways of moving over the ice, and launching into aerial moves and single rotations. But they had acquired good skating skills first! Nowadays, skaters and fans don't even know who the inventors of all of these jumps are, aside perhaps from Ulrich and Paulsen, for obvious reasons. Frankly, I had to look up Lutz's first name, and I didn't remember who invented the loop, toe loop, and flip jumps until looking it up. That's pretty egregious for a long time skating fan. And I don't think I'm the only one who doesn't have all of these names on the tip of my tongue. We should though.

The main point is that skaters today are trying to throw their bodies into the air incorrectly without good blade technique first. So the sport stagnates in important ways. Skaters aren't executing jumps correctly. The blade/boot equipment limit for creating new jumps was reached a long time ago, so perhaps that's why extra rotations on jumps continue to be added. But there's a physical limit involved there, i.e., quint rotations are under current circumstances physically impossible. So in my view, it's important to get back to the basics of what can't be easily seen or understood: good skating skills (blade proficiency) which allows for the development of speed, ice coverage, and proper jump technique.

In the 1970s, there was a lot of vigorous athleticism and new moves were created. But in the 1980s and 1990s, there needed to be more of a focus on tying the past to that era and to the future, in terms of making the connection between blade work and creative possibilities, which didn't begin to happen until the 2000s when IJS changes led to a focus on footwork sequences and choreographic innovation. However, the problem is that because figures practice was thrown into the dustbin in 1990, there were very few skaters who were or are today proficient enough in blade skills to ably tackle complex footwork, much less be in a position to be the inventors that Salchow, Axel and Lutz were in their time. There needs to be a return to a focus on blade possibilities and on the pleasing simplicity of moves like delayed axels and open axel sit-spins, formerly performed by pioneering skaters like John Misha Petkevich, combined with the amazing technical advances of today. Enhance forward progress by freeing the free programs and allowing for more creative expression and storytelling along with acrobatic tricks and the inspired simplicity of well-executed moves of the past.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwUfx-fLg1s (with thanks to floskate)

During Janet Lynn's and John Misha Petkevich's era as competitive skaters, many things were probably taken for granted, as the sport was still in an earlier stage of growth. Back then, they needed to begin breaking down and codifying technique, and understanding the history that had brought them to that moment. In fact, the advances in triple jumps were just sort of allowed to meander along, as more athletes began attempting triples. This was the prevailing reaction to the point that when quads began to be attempted, those running the sport continued along the same path of, 'Oh wow, look at that amazing feat.' And that was it, with no consideration of how to guide development of the quad phenomenon which would change the face of men's figure skating and ultimately complicate scoring. It wasn't until Nathan Chen performed 5 clean quads in his 2017 U.S. Nationals free program that the ISU finally acknowledged they had overvalued quads post 2010-Olympics (i.e., they went from bust to boom, by first giving quads barely any credit to subsequently overvaluing them, and then reversing their mistake only when a great skater's abilities threatened to take scoring control away from the judges). SMH

Quads currently impact how we view ladies (now women's) singles. BTW, what is a female skater these days? How do we value what young females can do vs the ongoing growth of their bodies, which is in conflict with their creative development and longevity within the sport? These are questions that are frankly being ignored and pushed aside in favor of looking googly-eyed at amazing feats by teenyboppers which are damaging bones and joints, not to mention ultimately dashing dreams when their technique is not safe nor solidified, and the competitive structure of the sport continues to be so limited and limiting.
 
Last edited:
I am enjoying reading all the excellent comments so far.

As I considered these comments, it occurred to me that for years, other than the Torville and Dean 6.0 program (still one of my favorite moments in competitive figure skating history!)--most fans of figure skating didn't really like ice dancing as much as they liked the other disciplines. I remember my late husband labeling it "pairs skating light", which is ironic because as an older adult, he started ice dancing and LOVED LOVED LOVED IT, and competed around the country with two different partners.

But now, ice dancing is much more popular with viewers, and I think more people would recognize the names of current and recent American ice dancers than the names of current and recent singles and pairs competitors.

Is it possible?---perhaps the reason for this rise of popularity of ice dancing has occurred because ice dancers currently do "tell a story", as Janet Lynn describes, and utilize the music well, while in Pairs and Singles skating, the music seems unnecessary, as most of the programs, with the exception of Jason Brown, all look alike, and are different only in the number of multi-rotation jumps that are landed and get called.

I hate to say it, but for several years, synchronized skating programs at the high levels were also all pretty much the same, featuring the same elements for almost every team, which of course the medal-winning "good" (well-coached and well-funded) teams" perform with much more strength, speed, and deep edges than the "middle of the pack teams" and the "just here for experience teams." THANKFULLY, we are starting to see some variation in programs again, as a "creative element" has been added to the list of required elements in synchro programs.

I think that as much as some people would like to see figure skating only as a "sport"--it isn't. Like it or not, it's a show, too, and IMO, that's part of this "sport." Someone who can land multiple quads should not win if they don't tell a story, even if that story is simply, "I deserve to win and watch to see why!" That being said, I think the current men's champions DO tell that story. It's the ladies that I think have given up story-telling in favor of those jumps, and without the "glamour" of ladies figure skating, the sport loses it audience. I still find it strange that the ladies event (now called "women's event), which used to be the BIG FINALE in a television broadcast of figure skating competitions, has been replaced with the men's event--that just blows my mind! But they deserve the top spot in the broadcast--perhaps because Jason Brown is a threat to the "jumping beans" unless they do more than just jump!

Just some thoughts, and I accept that others will disagree with me. That's what discussion is for--presenting our case, hearing others present their case, and then arriving at a conclusion that takes into account ALL the "cases." :)
 
One more thing--I do agree with those who say that the 6.0 system was awful! So many ways for the judges to end up selecting the winners before the competition was even skated. The Salt Lake City Olympics was dreadful for figure skating, and I think was the cause of many Americans giving up on the sport because they felt that it was a politically-motivated, popularity contest rather than a sport.

I think we're naive if we believe that IJS eliminates "cheating" and "stacking results," and all the other detestable behaviors. There are plenty of ways to manipulate the scores--but!--I think it's a lot harder and trickier for judges to pre-determine who will win when they use the IJS system.

My daughter coaches (synchro), and she love the IJS because the coaches and teams know what they have to do to even have a chance of achieving a certain score and hopefully earning a medal. Sure, it's a points game--but we have to remember that in order to perform the elements that earn the most points, skaters have to master the skills needed to perform those elements, and that means high-level, preferably Gold Level MIF, Dance, and Freestyle tests.

And IMO, the skating tests still require the "pure" skating elements that Janet Lynn is calling for--the rockers and choctaws and all the other "edge" moves that make figure skating "FIGURE" skating. When it comes to the jumps, a skater will fail the test if they do not take off from and land on the correct edge.

However, Janet Lynn has talked about the old figures test helping skaters develop many small movements that enable them to land "big" jumps without injury. It's a shame that school figures make the sport even more expensive, but perhaps if coaches taught them as a way of developing the strength and agility to maintain the edges, and there were no "figures" tests--maybe that would help skaters to achieve better and safer results in their elements? Just a thought, and again, I'm interested in what everyone thinks of this idea.
 
I think that as much as some people would like to see figure skating only as a "sport"--it isn't. Like it or not, it's a show, too, and IMO, that's part of this "sport."
Exactly.

However, Janet Lynn has talked about the old figures test helping skaters develop many small movements that enable them to land "big" jumps without injury. It's a shame that school figures make the sport even more expensive, but perhaps if coaches taught them as a way of developing the strength and agility to maintain the edges, and there were no "figures" tests--maybe that would help skaters to achieve better and safer results in their elements? Just a thought, and again, I'm interested in what everyone thinks of this idea.
Seems like a sound idea to me. They need to do something. Synchronized skating is surely different in aspects from how singles are taught. I believe there are different techniques being taught and some who are teaching youngsters may not be proficient in passing on correct skating technique. That's a problem that needs to be addressed in rinks across the country, along with the missing edge expertise that practicing figures provides. One name: Patrick Chan -- his coaches made him practice figures, and that's what made him extraordinary with superb SS that few other skaters of his generation possessed, which shouldn't really have been the case. In other words, SS expertise of Patrick Chan's caliber should not be as rare as it is. I totally agree with you that ice dancing attracts us because the ice dancers tell a story and they must be proficient with edgework and blade mastery to do what they do.
I think the current men's champions DO tell that story. It's the ladies that I think have given up story-telling in favor of those jumps, and without the "glamour" of ladies figure skating, the sport loses it audience. I still find it strange that the ladies event (now called "women's event), which used to be the BIG FINALE in a television broadcast of figure skating competitions, has been replaced with the men's event--that just blows my mind! But they deserve the top spot in the broadcast
I completely agree with you, but I'm not surprised about the change to men closing the show. It began to switch around the era of Johnny Weir, Timothy Goebel, Michael Weiss, Jeremy Abbott, Ryan Bradley, Matt Savoie, Adam Rippon, and Evan Lysacek, at least for tv broadcasts in the U.S. This turnabout situation slowly evolved, but men have been consistently stealing the show, in part because a number of great male skaters came along and inspired others, i.e., Petkevich, Cranston & Curry led to Hamilton, Cousins, Boitano & Orser, led to Wylie, Petrenko, Browning, Galindo, Eldredge & Stojko, led to Plushenko, Weir, Buttle, Takahashi, Lambiel, Abbott, overlapping with Chan, Hanyu, Fernandez, DTen, Rippon, et al. And now we are in the era of Nathan, Jason, Shoma, Kolyada, Kagiyama, Messing, Aymoz, Vasiljevs, Sadovsky, et al, with Hanyu still in the mix. Sorry in advance for missing some other fan favorites among the men over the years. :)

The sport boxed-in the ladies as 'porcelain princesses,' when they are anything and everything but. Plus, now the over-focus is on the feats of prepubescent teenagers as the stars of the newly renamed women's discipline. Contradictions abound.
 
Interesting comment about "porcelain princesses". Perhaps, to our shame in the U.S., people just felt more comfortable seeing women in "leotards with short skirts" (the sparkles and gems didn't really start up until the late 1960s--if you watch the broadcasts of women's skating before 1968, they were wearing plain dresses with some some sparkles, but nothing like today!).

But men--well, in the era of Dick Button, men wore competition outfits that looked like well-fitting dress suits! The "leotards" didn't appear until later, and I think a lot of people felt uncomfortable seeing men dressed like this.

And sadly, I think a lot of people felt that it looked...well, I'm not sure how to say it without sounding terribly offensive, because nowadays, the LGBTQ populartion has become widely accepted and cherished by most of us. But back then...a person's life and career was often ruined if they were "outed." There's a Benny Hill skit where the family is watching ballet, and the father (played by Benny) made a comment about watching that "great Nancy", which I assume is a derogatory term for "gay". Nowdays, that would never be acceptable to say or think!

However now many (but not all, certainly) people are quite comfortable seeing males in "leotards" or "tight outfits" and don't associate it with any kind of sexual orientation (think of the current swimwear for men!). Yes, I know there is still a lot of hatred of different sexual orientations, but I think it's getting a lot better, and I don't think this is a barrier anymore for people to enjoy or at least appreciate Men's Figure Skating.

I hope I have stated all this in a way that is non-offensive. This is sensitive stuff, and for those who are younger, they have no memory of a time when having a sexuality other than "straight" was socially unacceptable or worse. So they may not be able to believe what I'm saying here--that people used to feel uncomfortable with men's figure skating (and sadly, many still do feel uncomfortable with it). Ladies Figure Skating was just fine, but men in tights...well, it didn't always go over well.
 
Hah - Blissful. Your comment "contradictions abound" made me laugh out loud.

What I totally agree on are the comments around skating not just being a sport but also a show! Amen. People have different opinions on what figure skating should be and I think some of that is their relative age, how long they've been fans, who their favorite skaters are, and a host of other factors. But if you agree that is IS a show, then skaters have to keep presenting that show with interesting programs, beautiful music, and not just jumps. I don't know where women's figure skating is going to end up. I do think that the very young stars of today are going to either burn out or injury-out. We've seen that happen already. The beauty and grace of figure skating has been usurped by the need to keep adding revolutions to jumps. If the sport/show is to ever regain its popularity in the US, it has to appeal to the masses....not just the in-the-know fans.

As for the judging - as I and many have said before - if there are humans involved with disparate loyalties and prejudices, there will be corruption. It's just how it is.
 
Interesting comment about "porcelain princesses". Perhaps, to our shame in the U.S., people just felt more comfortable seeing women in "leotards with short skirts" (the sparkles and gems didn't really start up until the late 1960s--if you watch the broadcasts of women's skating before 1968, they were wearing plain dresses with some some sparkles, but nothing like today!).

But men--well, in the era of Dick Button, men wore competition outfits that looked like well-fitting dress suits! The "leotards" didn't appear until later, and I think a lot of people felt uncomfortable seeing men dressed like this.

And sadly, I think a lot of people felt that it looked...well, I'm not sure how to say it without sounding terribly offensive, because nowadays, the LGBTQ populartion has become widely accepted and cherished by most of us. But back then...a person's life and career was often ruined if they were "outed." There's a Benny Hill skit where the family is watching ballet, and the father (played by Benny) made a comment about watching that "great Nancy", which I assume is a derogatory term for "gay". Nowdays, that would never be acceptable to say or think!

However now many (but not all, certainly) people are quite comfortable seeing males in "leotards" or "tight outfits" and don't associate it with any kind of sexual orientation (think of the current swimwear for men!). Yes, I know there is still a lot of hatred of different sexual orientations, but I think it's getting a lot better, and I don't think this is a barrier anymore for people to enjoy or at least appreciate Men's Figure Skating.

I hope I have stated all this in a way that is non-offensive. This is sensitive stuff, and for those who are younger, they have no memory of a time when having a sexuality other than "straight" was socially unacceptable or worse. So they may not be able to believe what I'm saying here--that people used to feel uncomfortable with men's figure skating (and sadly, many still do feel uncomfortable with it). Ladies Figure Skating was just fine, but men in tights...well, it didn't always go over well.

I remember it well.

My beloved Toller was one of the driving impetus behind men changing from fake tuxes to jumpsuits (and yes the jumpsuits look very 70s, but they were an enormous change). And people tripping over themselves trying to come up with criticisms that really meant they thought he was "too gay".

And I am sorry, at least in the US of A, men (and women) could dress in t-shirts and jeans and reel off quad after quintuple after sextuple jump. It will not make figure skating look any more of a "real sport" to those who have such an attitude. Who still think in such a benighted way. My fellow Eagles fans (not all, some have dual fandoms like me, but we are few:biggrin:,) with whom I try to argue, against my natural bent, look at all those cool jumps. They don't care. People are on skates and music is playing in the background. It will never be a "sport" to them and why try?

If skating goes for that, and loses, then it has lost everything: the artistry, the bladework, and the "tricks", that make figuring skating special.
 
It still surprises me when "old-timers" (I remember Hamill's win in 76, so I'm part of that group too) say that wasting ALL THAT TIME AND MONEY on figures should be brought back. To what? Enhance a skater's skating skills? Trixi didn't have such great skating skills IMO. Neither did Kira Ivanova, etc, etc. You can learn edges, moves, even more easily by taking edging/stroking classes without the boringness of practicing figures.

It's not surprising that Janet Lynn still wants the days of yore when she was considered the "best". Frankly, I thought Gaby Seyfert was by far a better skater than Janet Lynn. Though it might have to do with her compulsory figures scores.... NOT.

The trend in sport is bigger, stronger, faster. Quads are the new extension of that. I prefer quads AND a program. The rest can skate in a Vegas show.
 
It still surprises me when "old-timers" (I remember Hamill's win in 76, so I'm part of that group too) say that wasting ALL THAT TIME AND MONEY on figures should be brought back. To what? Enhance a skater's skating skills? Trixi didn't have such great skating skills IMO. Neither did Kira Ivanova, etc, etc. You can learn edges, moves, even more easily by taking edging/stroking classes without the boringness of practicing figures.

It's not surprising that Janet Lynn still wants the days of yore when she was considered the "best". Frankly, I thought Gaby Seyfert was by far a better skater than Janet Lynn. Though it might have to do with her compulsory figures scores.... NOT.

The trend in sport is bigger, stronger, faster. Quads are the new extension of that. I prefer quads AND a program. The rest can skate in a Vegas show.

Really?🤔

I certainly agree that "technical" skills should go along with programs. Bladework, edge work, spins (just as difficult to learn and just as athletic as jumps), real footwork, real transitions. (I agree with those who say that the footwork and transitions in 6.0 era could be lacking)

Every bit as "athletic", "faster and stronger" as a quad. And for me, far more interesting to watch.

Anyone who thinks that jumping quads is the only measure of faster stronger and bigger in figure skating can head out to a frozen lake and others can bundle up to watch them.;)

(and I realize you said with a program, I am jumping off ...hahahhahaha ... here)
 
A quad axel, as a singles jump or as a throw jump, if anyone can pull one off, should be a game changer today.
Why a game changer today? I doubt this is going to happen anytime soon, especially not in pairs skating where 3-axels have yet to be fully mastered as throws. This is the case, even though it was a U.S. pair (Inoue/Baldwin) who were the first to perform throw 3-axels in competition in 2006. Meanwhile, many fans enjoy looking down on U.S. pairs, forgetting or never even knowing that two different U.S. pairs teams hold the record for first throw 3-axel (Inoue/Baldwin) and first throw quad salchow (Vise/Trent) in international competition.

There is a physical limit to what the human body can do in terms of revolutions in the air. Why not allow skaters to focus on improving and understanding the importance of blade skills and on perfecting the hugely difficult lifts, triple throws and triple twists in pairs skating? I'm mentioning pairs since you said:
What I don't want to see, and what would cause me, and other fans like me, to disappear is a devaluation of technical elements to bring them in line points-wise with artistic interpretation. This is a sport, and to be taken seriously as such the athletic skill has to matter. How little relative value is given to high risk throws in pairs, for example, has soured me quite a bit on that discipline when it had always previously been my favourite.
Thanks for sharing your background as a dancer in your earlier post. I don't see any devaluation of technical elements in pairs. The ISU never extended extra value to quad throws and quad twists in pairs skating in the same way they did for quad jumps in men's skating. That's partly why many pairs skaters and their coaches have pulled back from attempting quad elements in competition. The other reason for the pull-back reportedly is the rise in concussions and other injuries with skaters training difficult quad elements. Reportedly, it was decided that pairs elements are already very difficult, and that quad elements in pairs are at this time seen as overly dangerous, with risk vs reward benefits lacking in terms of points. Teams made the decision to focus on adding difficulty to lifts, lift positions, and lift dismounts. In addition, there has been an exciting recent trend in adapting ice dance moves into pairs choreography, which has enhanced the discipline. Of course, there has in general been a history of cross-fertilization between pairs and ice dance for awhile.

I haven't seen any arguments by decisionmakers intended to devalue tech elements in order to 'bring them in line points wise with artistic interpretation.' Perhaps some fans have referenced this line of thinking, but I doubt that is the ISU's intention. The idea of having a technical program, and an artistic program is not a call to try and equal out 'artistic' scores with 'technical' scores.

Honestly, it is impossible to separate sport from art in figure skating. Trying to place one aspect in importance over the other in figure skating is a fruitless enterprise. Figure skating is both sport and art. That is how fs developed and how it will always be. The whole debate, in my view, and per Dick Button's wise words, is rather moot and unproductive, albeit Button indicates there has always existed a debate. That's because of how the sport/art evolved. Fans need to pay more attention to delving into the rich history of figure skating. There's a lot to learn.

I've been subjected to dismissive comments by the 'bigger, faster, stronger' sport-centric fans. I've been told that if I want art, 'Go to a museum!' Anyone who thinks like that, really doesn't understand what art means in reference to figure skating. It's about more than the music, the costumes, the choreography. It's about a mood, about the rhythm and pacing, and about telling an engaging story via all these different aspects that come together. It's about expressiveness and musicality; and in pairs it's also about synchronicity, unison, and two athletes skating as one, and making it look effortless. Trying to separate art from the sport would make figure skating completely different. So those who prefer to view figure skating like other sports, should advocate to take away the costumes, the music, the emoting, the choreography, and place exclusive focus on executing technical elements. But call that exclusive sport by another name: Ice Acrobatics, or Ice Tricks perhaps. It would not be figure skating. The term 'figure' is in figure skating for a reason.

Thanks to @Sharon Whitlock for bringing back Janet's article from 2011. It brings up lots of food for thought and discussion.
 
Last edited:
BTW @LiamForeman, Janet Lynn did not write the article because she "still wants the days of yore when she was considered the 'best.'" That is a completely inaccurate and dismissive interpretation altogether. Janet Lynn has always been modest about her talents as a skater. She has spoken about her skating prowess as a gift from God, so she has never had a big head about her career, much less about whether or not others viewed her or continue to see her as 'the best.' When Lynn's career was over, I don't recall her exhibiting any noticeable angst about moving on with her life as a wife and mother. Of course, she continued to participate for awhile in shows, and as a judge. She may have been one of the skaters involved in the formation of the Figure and Fancy Skating Association.

Fine for you preferring Seyfert over Lynn. [As @FelineFairy notes in a later post, perhaps you meant to reference Trixie Schuba, so I am making modifications to this paragraph -- see FelineFairy's post on the following page. While Gaby Seyfert competed against Lynn, Seyfert was mainly a contemporary rival of Peggy Fleming. Seyfert retired in 1970, prior to 1972 Worlds and Olympics, when Schuba won gold over Janet Lynn and Karen Magnussen, on the basis of superb figures prowess, while Lynn placed first in the free skate, but third overall]. Seyfert was a worthy skater with an interesting background -- see details in a later post in this thread. It was Trixie Schuba who was an absolute genius at figures, and her free skating was competent but not very remarkable. Without Schuba's extraordinary blade prowess and the overbalanced way figures were scored in the early 1970s, Schuba would have been in the mix for medals, but she would not have enjoyed the huge advantage she always gained due to the points she could rack up in the figures portion of competitions.

It is Janet Lynn's passion for the sport of figure skating that compelled her to write this article. And kudos to her for doing so.

Here's a fun blog post by Ryan Stevens of Skateguard:


The trend in sport is bigger, stronger, faster. Quads are the new extension of that. I prefer quads AND a program. The rest can skate in a Vegas show.
Then, you must love Nathan Chen, eh! Boy though, you are relegating so many skaters to hoofer status in Vegas. How dismissive of you. :laugh:

Ironically, Vegas is the place to be for Skate America these days. :ROFLMAO:


Another thing I want to point out is that people are too wrapped up in the aerial rotations. We need to understand more about the blades on ice, and the intricacies involved. Get those minds and googly eyes out of the air for a moment and come down to the nitty gritty of it all. If more attention were placed on understanding and perfecting blade skills, perhaps skaters could improve their speed, ice coverage and jumping abilities (i.e., going into jumps faster and gaining more lift with the speed and with proper blade technique).

Figure skating is not track, it's not wrestling, it's not skiing, it's not speed skating, it's not high jump, it's not swimming, it's not diving, and it's not gymnastics, or any other sport, but itself. It's a combination of art and sport, and that's what makes it so unique. Ask the skaters, and many will tell you that the combination of art and sport is what they love and part of what drew them to the ice. What figure skaters do is difficult in every aspect and in every measure. Look at the video I linked earlier of John Misha Petkevich. Does anyone believe any of what he did in the 1970s was easy then or easy now? A delayed axel and an open axel sit spin are NOT easy to do. All of what Petkevich did back then is still hard to do. An Ina Bauer is hard to perform; spread eagles are hard to perform; spins are extremely difficult to perform well. Every element is a minefield, and the best skaters make it all look like a piece of cake. BUT IT'S NOT!!!

Please stop dissing everything about skating while putting quad jumps on a pedestal. A quad is just an extra revolution in the air, after all, added to one of the basic jumps in figure skating. Trying to add that extra revolution takes a lot, because it's like defying physics. However, if skaters were more proficient technically with blade skills, and could perfect great form in the air, and possessed a strong mental focus (like Nathan Chen), maybe there would be more skaters who could cleanly land multiple quads in performances. BUT THERE AREN'T ANY WHO CAN DO ALL THAT NATHAN DOES, are there? He's pretty much the only one who can land consistently clean quads on all the basic jumps except axel, and perform 5 clean quads in performances with rare consistency. That may be why Hanyu is focused on trying to master a quad axel, in order to set that competitive record.

Someone is doing research on forgotten moves of the past in figure skating:
 
Last edited:
So I had a short discussion with my mom about why she doesn't watch figure skating much anymore. She found it difficult to elaborate, but she doesn't think it's the programs that are the problem and didn't mention anything regarding blade work or foundational skills. The first reason she gave me is that it's just not how she wants to spend her time, which I don't blame her for. She likes watching movies and her favorite TV shows. The second reason was that there's no real stars anymore. She still remembers Scott Hamilton and Kristi Yamaguchi, but she can't really name current US or international figure skaters. This indicates to me that figure skating has less cross cultural impact now. People watched because their friends and family also watched.

As for me, I watch figure skating because I love it as a sport, but I think I would feel differently if there wasn't an artistic component because I'm also a huge gymnastics fan, but I'm not a regular fan of extreme sports like skateboarding and snowboarding. If the artistic side of figure skating has decreased in recent years, it's not significant enough for me to not still be interested. I do think step sequences are a bit busy these days, but that's because they're now considered part of the difficulty. I get really excited when I see a true classic layback spin. On the other hand, I think it's really awesome to see the quad revolution in women's figure skating because sports evolve. The athleticism is truly spectacular, and I think people are missing out. The sport is still enjoyable. I don't enjoy it any less than I did when I was a five-year-old in 1993.

Anyways, that's just my two cents. I think it's a very nuanced issue.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top