Study in a Skating Popularity-Disparity Across Different Regions | Page 4 | Golden Skate

Study in a Skating Popularity-Disparity Across Different Regions

Mathematician

Pilgrim on a long journey
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Any content creator will tell you that engagement is dropping year after year, and everyone is working for niches. Figure skaters are not one of the rare exception to this rule, and that's all there is for it. Low viewership nowadays is something that would have been amazing 50 years ago. And people's interest to attend anything in public from shopping to competitions to concerts is downright plummeted. Usually, people show up for someone who was famous back in the 80s or 90s or some very, very select few cult figures. If some skater becomes such a figure, good for them. But that's a glam exception one shouldn't even aim for because it's completely unworkable and soul-crushing goal.
Great and sophisticated point but the gap between nations is still relevant, what are they doing to combat this issue that we arent? How is their society different when it comes to content consumption and the state of their market?

You are very correct in your analysis of the western market, I think you might be pushing towards the idea that theres little to be done to save these kinds of things in our society and although I dont disagree I think its better not to dwell on end times and still do what we can or at least learn what we can if we really love this sport (which I do).
 

Mathematician

Pilgrim on a long journey
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It is, however, impossible to predict, anticipate, or account for what the public will decide that they want. Why does Taylor Swift have such an huge and enthusiastic following? She is not a very good singer and only OK as a songwriter. Yet astonishly her current tour has brought in more than US$ ONE BILLION.

Kim Kardashian's net worth is 1.7 billion dollars. What is she famous for? (Wait, don't answer that. This is a PG rated board).

Well, good on 'em for serving as lightning rods for public frenzy.
Mainstream celebrities are the furthest thing from accidents that there are. These people's fame is planned massively by people so far up nobody knows their name. It isnt that they have to predict what the public wants, they tell the public what they want and it force it to them.

Do not ever analyze worldwide mainstream phenomena like this in an attempt to expand your own strategies and plans for your solo interests. We are playing a very different game.
 

Mathematician

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The other side of what we are talking about here is that Yuzuru sold more than 110K full price tickets to his 12 solo shows within last 15 months. Would have sold more if the venues allowed more spectators as all of those tickets needed to be won in lotteries, some of them with winning chances close to that of getting to Harvard. This number is not counting thousands of people watching in movie theatres and unknown numbers on paid streams (not to mention unauthorized streams, let's call it this way). Yesterday in Yokohama they had people from more than 20 countries in the venue, coming to Japan specifically for this show.
I am tired of people explaining his phenomenon as fans being crazy. That's far too many people for this nonsense.
He clearly knows how to make figure skating attractive to huge crowds and make them wish to pay and go to many efforts to watch. Even those who do not care to watch any other figure skating content
High time for the sport to learn from him and make conclusions, His vision of what figure skating is about is clearly much more appealing to global, not just regional, audiences than that of ISU rewarding just more jumps and less beauty.
Indeed the point of ice shows was very briefly brought up in my OP. It is no coincidence that the more the society loves skating the more quality ice shows there are. And no, I dont believe its just "funding" or something. Again, its artistic disposition; I believe that point is supported quite massively at this stage.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Mainstream celebrities are the furthest thing from accidents that there are. These people's fame is planned massively by people so far up nobody knows their name.It isnt that they have to predict what the public wants, they tell the public what they want and it force it to them.
Quite true. That is the job of marketers. To tell people what they want and then to force it down their throats until the people start beieving, "Hey, this is what I really wanted all the time. How silly I was not to know what I wanted until someone told me."

It is how dictators come to power, convincing ordinbary people that what they really want is tio commit mass murder and genocide. To me, this is a sad commentary on the human race. :(

Oh,well, I think I will come out of retirement and become an Internet Influencer. My message: "send me all your money. That's what you really want." Maybe I will be elected President.
 

TallyT

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Mainstream celebrities are the furthest thing from accidents that there are. These people's fame is planned massively by people so far up nobody knows their name. It isnt that they have to predict what the public wants, they tell the public what they want and it force it to them.
Or they try to. While advertising/pr is a powerful and pervasive part of society (and has been for centuries, after all) oh so many companies/individuals big and small stuff it up with impressive regularity, sometimes in ways that afterwards make us think "how the hell did they think that would work???"

There's a TV show been running for years over here that is all about advertising/pr/spin etc and it can be scary, but it can also at times be reassuring.
 

icewhite

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Okay, let's get to the real points here. You despise "western" societies, you have made that abundantly clear elsewhere. For some reason you live in a western country, but you are deeply disappointed and much prefer Russia - no idea why you do not just leave and go there.

I have studied art history and am, technically, an artist. What is art is highly subjective, but ice shows are usually not it. Semenenko and Trusova in the little Mermaid -nope, definitely not art. Kamila or Medvedeva or Petrysyan or Shcherbakova in a pretty dress skating around the rink - not art.
The Russian ice shows are massively funded by the state and it's a means of getting state money for people like Navka, Averbukh and Rudkovskaya. I could call it worse.
The Japanese ice shows, such as One Piece on Ice, or a show like Disney on ice, Holiday on ice - not art. It's entertainment. And really not the most sophisticated, independent, intellectual, thought provoking or creative kind. It's supposed to look pretty and give the viewers light pleasure - there is nothing bad about it. I myself love to listen and dance around to cheesy songs. I enjoy a pretty picture of some pretty flowers. I like to read some cheap love stories, they can be very enjoyable and enrich my life because they make me feel good and lighter. But that is not art.
Maybe this doesn't matter for the discussion. Maybe the important thing is whether it is perceived as art by societies.

But I've had enough now about the terrible state of the "western" societies that need to change towards more sincere, deeply understanding, art loving ways. Because although we all know that PR and marketing and some factors of capitalism can be an absolute pain in the *** and we would all like to live a world free of this stuff, the idea that non-western countries have a more artistic disposition or that the interest in shows like the little mermaid or one piece is not a result of massive PR and advertising itself, just annoys me so much.

I will now leave this thread, I guess I have said what I wanted to say.
 

Mathematician

Pilgrim on a long journey
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Okay, let's get to the real points here. You despise "western" societies, you have made that abundantly clear elsewhere. For some reason you live in a western country, but you are deeply disappointed and much prefer Russia - no idea why you do not just leave and go there.

I have studied art history and am, technically, an artist. What is art is highly subjective, but ice shows are usually not it. Semenenko and Trusova in the little Mermaid -nope, definitely not art. Kamila or Medvedeva or Petrysyan or Shcherbakova in a pretty dress skating around the rink - not art.
The Russian ice shows are massively funded by the state and it's a means of getting state money for people like Navka, Averbukh and Rudkovskaya. I could call it worse.
The Japanese ice shows, such as One Piece on Ice, or a show like Disney on ice, Holiday on ice - not art. It's entertainment. And really not the most sophisticated, independent, intellectual, thought provoking or creative kind. It's supposed to look pretty and give the viewers light pleasure - there is nothing bad about it. I myself love to listen and dance around to cheesy songs. I enjoy a pretty picture of some pretty flowers. I like to read some cheap love stories, they can be very enjoyable and enrich my life because they make me feel good and lighter. But that is not art.
Maybe this doesn't matter for the discussion. Maybe the important thing is whether it is perceived as art by societies.

But I've had enough now about the terrible state of the "western" societies that need to change towards more sincere, deeply understanding, art loving ways. Because although we all know that PR and marketing and some factors of capitalism can be an absolute pain in the *** and we would all like to live a world free of this stuff, the idea that non-western countries have a more artistic disposition or that the interest in shows like the little mermaid or one piece is not a result of massive PR and advertising itself, just annoys me so much.

I will now leave this thread, I guess I have said what I wanted to say.
I didnt say any disposition makes makes anyone superior, smarter, more artistic, or anything you imply that I am implying for some superiority complex.. I could not care less if it is "really" art or not , if it really is sophisticated or not etc... and I made that really, really, really clear in my OP. I see a correlation in disposition and thats it. In a disparity there must be a cause, I provided my supposition, others provided theirs. I think the discussion hasnt been patronizing on my part or dishonest, I think we made a little progress. I can see some of us are pushing at least slightly to a middle ground.

I also apparently hate western societies but you also admit I decide to live here when I could live in Russia. So on one hand this could be an unexplainable paradox as you present it or maybe your base assertion is not accurate. If I hated my country why would I care to study how to revive the sport if I could just rest easy and ride the wave of Russian popularity like everyone else does?
 
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Mathematician

Pilgrim on a long journey
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Quite true. That is the job of marketers. To tell people what they want and then to force it down their throats until the people start beieving,
Haha, I wouldnt say its the job of your typical marketing expert, but its definitely on the agenda of some other people.

Or they try to... sometimes in ways that afterwards make us think "how the hell did they think that would work???"
True, sometimes those people arrogantly overestimate their influence and underestimate humanity.

Also, oftentimes the marketing isnt to make an individual believe they they need something, but the advertisement is to make them believe everyone else already thinks they need it (even though that isnt an established truth yet) and so the individual viewer then also thinks they need it. That might be the most powerful and depraved strategy of business, or other more serious things another user alluded to.
 

Andrina

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Mar 26, 2023
I also apparently hate western societies but you also admit I decide to live here when I could live in Russia. So on one hand this could be an unexplainable paradox as you present it or maybe your base assertion is not accurate. If I hated my country why would I care to study how to revive the sport if I could just rest easy and ride the wave of Russian popularity like everyone else does?
It is illusory to think that a thread on a forum can help study anything or lead to a life-changing results.

But what's real is that such a thread seeds unnecessary doubts about the state of the Western figure skating. It creates a negative image that gets ankered as the thread grows. The next step will be to create a thread with a similar topic, but by another user (Skating91 could be perfect for that role), et voilà, the negative image is cemented.

When we care about something, we first take time to celebrate it. Caring about figure-skating by implying that it is dead (whereas recent competitions prove it to be otherwise) is like saying to an athlete "I care about you, so I tell you straight - you're fat and won't be able to jump unless you weigh 35 kg". It is toxic. It is counter-productive. And it makes think that the true reason behind this thread is far from caring.
 
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el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
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whole thread


Not only that, but to jump off...

1. Tired old generalizations disguised behind the tropes of "culture" or "geographical differences" are meaningless. Kind of like "We win so much because our people in our culture work hard and accept sacrifice and aren't lazy and not like you".

Uh, max to the no :laugh:

2. Conspiracy theories explain nothing. The Illuminati do not control the world

KInd of like Taylor and Travis are a psyop and fake. Yeah, right, theories like that only makes someone look sillier and certainly not in the know.:sneaky: Then the evasive response is "So you believe what 'They" are telling you" or "So no one ever tries to sell you something". Back to the Illuminati and unprovable generalizations again....

So, back to this thread

1. Could attendance/iinterest/ in watching figure skating be improved in certain countries? Of course.
2. Does that mean it is dying? Heck no.
3. Can lessons be imported from country to country? Maybe, but only if all variables that have nothing to do with stereotypes (state funding, charismatic stars, etc) are equal.
4. Cold hard cash is the only real metric for me. YouTube views? Now *there* is a metric that can be fudged. Streaming? It is the future, but I have no idea how to track it.

GS has had many threads like this over the years and will continue to have them. But the ones that don't repeat generalizations and stereotypes tend to be more interesting to me.
 

Mathematician

Pilgrim on a long journey
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It is illusory to think that a thread on a forum can help study anything or lead to a life-changing results.

But what's real is that such a thread seeds unnecessary doubts about the state of the Western figure skating. It creates a negative image that gets ankered as the thread grows. The next step will be to create a thread with a similar topic, but by another user (Skating91 could be perfect for that role), et voilà, the negative image is cemented.

When we care about something, we first take time to celebrate it. Caring about figure-skating by implying that it is dead (whereas recent competitions prove it to be otherwise) is like saying to an athlete "I care about you, so I tell you straight - you're fat and won't be able to jump unless you weigh 35 kg". It is toxic. It is counter-productive. And it makes think that the true reason behind this thread is far from caring.
1. So why discuss anything at all then?

2. I already said I didnt even start this discussion, other people did, who are all westerners.

And what recent competition are you talking about that prove otherwise? I saw empty seats for finals man. Kaori's replays combined dont even have 50k views.

Anyways if you guys are all convinced that skating is where it should be, then theres nothing to worry about I guess. Thats a fair perspective and we can leave things be and surely everything will be fine. But then again I dont know why I always see people discussing this topic outside of this thread like all the time.
 

Andrina

Rinkside
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Mar 26, 2023
1. So why discuss anything at all then?

2. I already said I didnt even start this discussion, other people did, who are all westerners.

And what recent competition are you talking about that prove otherwise? I saw empty seats for finals man. Kaori's replays combined dont even have 50k views.

Anyways if you guys are all convinced that skating is where it should be, then theres nothing to worry about I guess. Thats a fair perspective and we can leave things be and surely everything will be fine. But then again I dont know why I always see people discussing this topic outside of this thread like all the time.
1. You're interpolating. My comment concerned only the use of the word "study" and this particular thread. It is not generalizable to every discussion on this forum.

2. I haven't seen this excuse since kindergarten^^ But what I see is that YOU started this thread. I have no idea about what other "westerners" wrote in other threads. My opinion is based only on what I see in this one.

3. Kaori is not a Western figure skater. But digs aside, I saw full a full arena in Kaunas. And other users saw other things in others places. We won't go far with this kind of "proofs".

4. To terminate this discussion, as others have already said, problems may exist and discussions may arise. That's normal. What is not normal is the format in which those discussions are served. A format, where one part of the world is claimed to be dying and engendre "blood bath clawing" and another one is proposed to be an island of pure artistry and unique uncomparable talents.
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
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Kaori's free skate at the Olympics has more than 600k views. Not all that bad.
Could be better, but could also be much worse.

Also, I hate the term westerners.

I have no idea what "West" or "Westerner" means. It's not that I hate it, it's that it is another unhelpful generalization. Useless for any kind of analysis.

Everyone in whatever the "West" no more shares the same culture or the same attitudes or the same approach to life and art and work and skating than everyone named Henry loves Jason Brown.

Would that they did. (Henry's loving Jason, that is):laugh:
 
Joined
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I have no idea what "West" or "Westerner" means. It's not that I hate it, it's that it is another unhelpful generalization.
The trouble with words like this is that they are always used in a pejorative fashion: Those blankety-blank Weaterners, I can't stand them.

Way back in the day it used to be OK to speak of "Orientals" -- just meaning, people from the East. But in 2016 President Obama signed off on official legislation that forbade the use of this bad word in any government document. It had become a racial putdown.
 
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Joined
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Anyway, here is a highly relevant sports analogy. ;)

A hundred years ago, the most popular sport for American boys was marbles, with pretty close to 100% participation at the grass roots level. The first National Marbles Championship was held in 1932 (the same year that the first World Marbles Championship was organized in England), with a girls’ division added in 1948. Manufacture of marbles was an economic staple for glass foundries centered in the state of Ohio. Winners of major tournaments could earn scholarships for school. Some 700 new words came into American English referencing a wide variety of terms invented by the mibsters. (Knuckle down!)

All of this disappeared by the 1950s (although the national tournament is still held annually: 2023 champions are Jessica Thompson of Middletown Valley, Maryland, and Isaiah Garcia, Philadelphia. PA). Sports historians have produced a number of scholarly articles studying the cultural, economic and historical reasons for this lamentable decline. I don’t know whether there are any lessons to be drawn for figure skating or not.

As for Russia, marbles historians generally agree that the sport disappeared with the Revolution of 1917. In India, on the other hand, Kanche (called Golli Gundu in the south) is still a popular game for boys.

(I don’t know why I posted this :slink:. )
 

Flying Feijoa

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Just popping in to thank @Andrina and others for having the energy to call out the underlying motives of OP and another poster (there are more, of course). I drifted off when it became apparent this was another one of 'those' threads but came back just to confirm ;)
The trouble with words like this is that they are always used in pejorative fashion: Those blankity-blank Weaterners, I can't stand them
The irony is that the other maths man is more proficient in English than Russian (and incidentally, probably less qualified in maths than you) :) It may be relevant here to note that disaffected young members of a diaspora can have an overly romanticised idea of the 'motherland' (some swing the other way of course, assimilating to the point of erasing their diaspora identity).
 

elbkup

Power without conscience is a savage weapon
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Anyway, here is a highly relevant sports analogy. ;)

A hundred years ago, the most popular sport for American boys was marbles, with pretty close to 100% participation at the grass roots level. The first National Marbles Championship was held in 1932 (the same year that the first World Marbles Championship was organized in England), with a girls’ division added in 1948. Manufacture of marbles was an economic staple for glass foundries centered in the state of Ohio. Winners of major tournaments could earn scholarships for school. Some 700 new words came into American English referencing a wide variety of terms invented by the mibsters. (Knuckle down!)

All of this disappeared by the 1950s (although the national tournament is still held annually: 2023 champions are Jessica Thompson of Middletown Valley, Maryland, and Isaiah Garcia, Philadelphia. PA). Sports historians have produced a number of scholarly articles studying the cultural, economic and historical reasons for this lamentable decline. I don’t know whether there are any lessons to be drawn for figure skating or not.

As for Russia, marbles historians generally agree that the sport disappeared with the Revolution of 1917. In India, on the other hand, Kanche (called Golli Gundu in the south) is still a popular game for boys.

(I don’t know why I posted this :slink:. )
OT: Back in the ‘50’s when I was a kid I had an enviable collection of marbles, the giant ones most prized. Neighborhood contests were held, boys and girls both were skilled players so it survived for a while at the grass roots level abandoned when we grew up and transitioned to computers.. wonder whatever happened to my collection.. can’t recall. Hope it found a good home😔
 
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