Rhythmic Gymnastics Tokyo 2020 Individual AA Final: Were Averina sisters robbed or nah?

[[email protected]]

Umm this might be the weird answer but the Russian team, they are getting a lot of hate and there have been several US athletes speak out against them implying they aren't clean and that they don't belong there. My perspective is that they are probably far more clean than anyone else at the Games because they are being scrutinized.

Well, those people may celebrate today. Judges in rhythmic gymnastics did it.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Well, those people may celebrate today. Judges in rhythmic gymnastics did it.

I'm devestated I was cheering for Dina and Arina so hard...

I've never seen such awful judging. I've been in tears all evening, which is embarrassing, but the pain and distress on Dina's face really got to me.

How can people be so cruel? Way to pretty much ruin the Olympics, Rhythmic Gymnastics Judges, you did your sport a real service.

 

[CrazyKittenLady]

The ribbon is cursed!

 

[JustSomeGuy]

I'm devestated I was cheering for Dina and Arina so hard...

I've never seen such awful judging. I've been in tears all evening, which is embarrassing, but the pain and distress on Dina's face really got to me.

How can people be so cruel? Way to pretty much ruin the Olympics, Rhythmic Gymnastics Judges, you did your sport a real service.

Okay, tell me exactly which element Ashram should have gotten a penalty on but didn't, which element she was awarded the difficulty on but should have been, which penalty Averina received but shouldn't have and which element she should have been awarded the difficulty on but wasn't?

Seriously, that's enough from the 4-year fans. This isn't figure skating's 6.0 era where the scores were whatever the judges wanted them to be, there is a code of points, if you're not familiar with it then maybe acclimatise yourself to it before you comment? Keep in mind that Ashram has placed above each Averina twin previously, this is just the first time (to me recolection) that she has placed above both of them simultaneously.

Ironically, the change in the COP that put Ashram above Averina was largely Viner's doing... hoist by her own petard and all that... Under the 20 point system, a drop was far more costly, as you were unlikely to have such a difficulty buffer over your opponents that you could afford to loose half a point. However, with the difficulty now open-ended, gymnasts with a large advantage in difficulty can afford what would previously have been a fatal mistake. This change was blatantly meant to benefit the Averinas, since they're both very strong on the apparatus difficulty, and completely screwed over Halkina (one of my absolute favourite gymnasts) who had a lower difficulty but far better execution, but it ended up benefiting Ashram significantly more than the Averina's since she's a clear example of high-difficulty-low-execution, which is benefited under this code.

 

[[email protected]]

Okay, tell me exactly which element Ashram should have gotten a penalty on but didn't, which element she was awarded the difficulty on but should have been, which penalty Averina received but shouldn't have and which element she should have been awarded the difficulty on but wasn't?

We might have very different eyes. As for the details, one might take a look at multiple protests of Russian delegation, sorry of ROC delegation against the scores all of which but one were declined. One might listen to Dina who was devastated by her scores because she did not understand why she was penalized like she was never before. It's like judges' sudden decision that at the same competition Alina was a flutzer and Mariah Bell was not or Sasha's StSq was just level 2. The outrage that I had then was quite similar to what was today.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Okay, tell me exactly which element Ashram should have gotten a penalty on but didn't

She should have got the same penalty Arina did for her ribbon drop. That was a huge drop, a huge break in the program and required her to run back to get it. It's utterly ludicrous she got the second highest score in the apparatus.

Oh and because Dina and Arina have a terrible person for a coach they deserve to lose? Or is it because they're dirty cheating Russians? I lose track of the reasons sometimes.

Keep in mind that Ashram has placed above each Averina twin previously

Arina was underscored throughout the entire competition, she had to make TWO appeals to get the correct scores in two different apparatuses.

The judges were balantly biased it took them over 5 minutes to score Dina in the ribbon. Like they were trying to find the tiniest mistake to take her points away while they ignored the huge elephant in the room of Linoy's dropped ribbon.

Beyond that it's the principle of it, if it was the other way around if Dina had dropped the ribbon and won she would have been cheating scum. But because a Russian lost it was a glorious day for sports and we should all rejoice because that's what those dirty commies deserve.

 

[[email protected]]

Exactly my thoughts. As for the argument that Ashram happenned to win before. Yes she did...in Kiev with no Russians. How she who never beat Dina at worlds before managed now to win with a gross mistake against clean Dina? It's a rhetorical question. I cannot be happy for her - not like that. I would not say a word if she did not drop that ribbon. Kudryavtseva dropped one in Rio and we know the result. And it was Kudryavtseva - a multimple worlds champion.

 

[JustSomeGuy]

one might take a look at multiple protests of Russian delegation ... Dina who was devastated by her scores ... The outrage that I had then was quite similar to what was today.

Completely irrelevant. Just because somebody protests, doesn't mean their protest is necessarily correct. The Deriuginas protest their athletes scores at damn near every competition, doesn't mean they should be medaling over the Russians.

An athlete being upset by their scores doesn't mean their scores are incorrect.

Nah mate, it's just Adelina Sotnikova 2.0. The faviourite lost (fairly) and fans are throwing their toys out of the pram. It's just that this time it's happening in the opposite direction.

@anonymoose_au The penalty for a drop varies depending in the number of steps taken to retrieve the apparatus and which element the drop occurs on, so no, it should not be the same penalty.

And where the absolute Frack did I say anything about Viner as a person? I said she made a bad call on her pushing changes to the CoP, which she did. YOU are the only person here calling her a terrible person, and I might suggest keeping those views out of this, since your opinions of Viner as a person aren't relevant to the scores (and politely, DO NOT put words in my mouth). And considering that I'm one of the people who will defend Sotnikova's win, it's clearly nothing to so with Russia.

Regarding appeals, see my previous comments about the Deriuginas. Seriously, they protest/appeal half of their athletes scores... it doesn't mean much. You can only appeal difficulty, not execution, so those drops would have nothing to do with the appeals. Most common appeals are for things like whether your free leg was far enough into a split position to count or if your pivot had enough rotation to count, and an appeal can lead to a drop in your difficulty score as much as it can an increase. It's pretty much standard in RG to have at least one appeal per apparatus per final, especially if you're in a position where your placement could go up but not really down. The fact that judges gave her the appeal actually suggests less bias against her than more.

Taking longer to score one athlete doesn't mean a whole bunch of anything. Averina had a much higher execution score than Ashram, she lost on difficulty, so judges weren't looking for places to make deductions (that would come off of the E score), it's more likely that they were looking for places to give points than take them.

Both Averina's have won competitions with drops before, and no, nobody called them "cheating scum". So, there is a double standard here, and it's not the one you think it is.

 

[JustSomeGuy]

Exactly my thoughts. As for the argument that Ashram happenned to win before. Yes she did...in Kiev with no Russians. How she who never beat Dina at worlds before managed now to win with a gross mistake against clean Dina? It's a rhetorical question. I cannot be happy for her - not like that. I would not say a word if she did not drop that ribbon. Kudryavtseva dropped one in Rio and we know the result. And it was Kudryavtseva - a multimple worlds champion.

Sorry to double post but seriously, refer back to my original post about this - the 20 point system and the current system are hugely different in this regards. Under the 20 point system, a drop was fatal to your score because realistically, at that level, you were never going to be more than half a point above your opponant on the difficulty score, since nearly every finalist would have a D score between 9.0 and 10.0. With difficulty being open-ended now, the D scores are often upwards of 15 points, and you might have 2-3 points over your opponents on difficulty, so that half a point off of the execution score simply doesn't matter as much as it used to.

This is exactly why I wasn't happy about the move to the open-ended points system, but whether or not I was personally happy about this change to the CoP (I wasn't), it happened, and the scores are correct. If they had stayed with the 20 point system Ashram is unlikely to have been on a Euros AA podium, much less the Olympic one, but hey, hindsight is lovely, isn't it?

 

[anonymoose_au]

And where the absolute Frack did I say anything about Viner as a person?

You said she was hoisted by her own petard as if HER bad decisions make it all OK.

Taking longer to score one athlete doesn't mean a whole bunch of anything.

I've never seen them take so long to score anyone, and our commentators - who have been doing commentary for more that 20 years - haven't either. Dina was forced to stand there like the world's biggest loser while Linoy was already celebrating. If it was so clear that Linoy deserved to win, why humiliate Dina like that? It was cruel and unnecessary. It's like they WANTED to break her. Dina did not deserve that, NO-ONE deserved that, it was heartless.

The fact that judges gave her the appeal actually suggests less bias against her than more.

To me it suggests they either forgot how to score or were hoping they could get away with low balling her. I bet a lot of people thought Arina was a big cry baby for appealing so many times. These judges are supposed to be professionals, but there must have been about six appeals. That's appalling. Maybe they need to take a refresher course?

I just can't believe I spent four hours of my life watching that debacle.

 

[[email protected]]

Nah mate, it's just Adelina Sotnikova 2.0. The faviourite lost (fairly) and fans are throwing their toys out of the pram. It's just that this time it's happening in the opposite direction.

Sure, sure - fantastic logic - I "love it". When Adelina won it was like a firestorm including death threats from the most avid fans. "Russian cheaters and scumbags!" And now (I would not be surprise if the audience is the same) we have the second side of the coin: "Russians are always whining!" One cannot get wrong with such logic.

 

[JustSomeGuy]

You said she was hoisted by her own petard as if HER bad decisions make it all OK.


I've never seen them take so long to score anyone, and our commentators - who have been doing commentary for more that 20 years - haven't either. Dina was forced to stand there like the world's biggest loser while Linoy was already celebrating. If it was so clear that Linoy deserved to win, why humiliate Dina like that? It was cruel and unnecessary. It's like they WANTED to break her. Dina did not deserve that, NO-ONE deserved that, it was heartless.

To me it suggests they either forgot how to score or were hoping they could get away with low balling her. I bet a lot of people thought Arina was a big cry baby for appealing so many times. These judges are supposed to be professionals, but there must have been about six appeals. That's appalling. Maybe they need to take a refresher course?

I just can't believe I spent four hours of my life watching that debacle.

'Hoist by her own petard' = her own actions caused this. =/= 'she is a bad person'. Seriously, don't put words in my mouth.

Sometimes judges take longer, and no, that does not mean they were trying to score Averina lower - again, they might well have been trying to score her higher. And Ashram was guaranteed at least a silver, she'd have still been celebrating even if Averina had beat her by a 10 point margin, she just won her country's first Olympic medal in her sport. I can assure you, the judges didn't take that long to 'break' anybody, don't attribute malice where there is none.

I have seen literally nobody call Arina a crybaby for appealing, because appeals are standard fare in RG. The number of appeals doesn't necessarily tell you anything about the judging, because the things that get appealed are things that can go either way and, again, a large number of appeals isn't unusual in RG. I'm willing to bet the judges know a lot more about this sport than you do - you still haven't said where Ashram should have lost points but didn't and just keep going back to the drop WHICH WAS PENALISED.

@[email protected] (I really need to figure out how to quote you both separately) The reaction to Sotnikova's win in Sochi was despicable and unjustified, I think this is one thing we can all agree on, and YES, Sotnikova should have won. The Reaction to Ashram's win is despicable and unjustified, and yes she should have won (I may not like it, but the code of points is the code of points and it was correct within the context of the CoP). I am applying exactly the same 'logic' to both events and both outcomes, YOU are the one who is not.

Now, if you don't mind, I have other things to do today besides argue with internet 'experts' on this. Have a lovely day, I'm off to go horribly maim myself on some circus equipment.

 

[breadstal]

I'm a *very* casual watcher of rhythmic gymnastics, and I don't know much about the scoring system. Arina is already going off that she was robbed and deserved gold medal over Linoy Ashram from Israel. Ashram dropped her apparatus in her final routine, while Dina was clean. The ribbon scoring was 24.000 vs 23.000 in favor of Dina, but in the rest of the routines it was Ashram who was better. Is there anyone here that understands the scoring system of RG and can give their thoughts of this competition?

Here are the scores; https://olympics.com/tokyo-2020/oly...esults-individual-all-around-fnl-a0000104.htm

 

[yume]

Kudryavtseva dropped one in Rio and we know the result. And it was Kudryavtseva - a multimple worlds champion.

She must be laughing now, seeing someone win with the mistake that costed her the olympic title.

 

[NaVi]

I can't really answer the question as I too am a casual... there are people who say that Linoy raised her difficulty but I have to take their and the judges word for it as it seems like there are no detailed protocols in RG. Just a score sheet with very basic calculations.

It would be interesting to get a rank of the artistic/subjective sports by how much their communities trust their judging system. It seems that artistic gymnastics > figure skating > rhythmic gymnastics. I read a bunch of rhythmic gymnastics interviews over the years and it seems pretty common for rhythmic gymnasts to attack the judging in a direct manner that you just don't see as often in figure skating. Don't know about other sports like synchronized swimming, etc.

WIth all these sports though, I kind of feel there's a margin where things can be "framed" if there is political pull to frame them. I can't help but think that the political pull has been moving away from Russia in RG.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Apparently not.

Like all Russians Arina and Dina are just sore losers who probably dope and deserve to be humiliated on the world stage.

And make sure not to complain about the judges, because they're always right, except when they score Russians well, then they're just been paid off or are Russians themselves.

And remember too if Russians dominate a sport there must be something wrong with it or they're cheating. It's fine for any other country to dominate a sport, but if Russians are it's a very bad thing and they must be stopped.

 

[breadstal]

Also Evgenia commented Сердце с Диной и Ариной (translation: heart with Dina and Arina) on Olympic IG. Yikes.

 

[gliese]

I personally don't think so but at the same time RG scoring is just like figure skating: inherently subjective.

 

[AlexBreeze]

I don't know a lot about RG, but why do people blame athletes every time? The comments on Linoy's Instragram are disgusting. Some people spam under her old perfomances "FAKE WINNER", "CHEATER" and the like. The same thing happened to Daiki Hashimoto at this Olympics after he had won AA in MAG.

 

[Amei]

Also Evgenia commented Сердце с Диной и Ариной (translation: heart with Dina and Arina) on Olympic IG. Yikes.

I don't follow rhythmic gymnastics at all - so the 'scoring controversary' I have no knowledge to speak whether I agree there is 1 or not - but seen a lot of stuff on my Instagram from figure skating fans blasting the results. Apparently Russia has submitted some type of inquiry into the scoring though