Pairs FS Worldwide: The Divine Discipline

[flanker]

I think this can be published here:

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I completely agree that reducing the number of JGPF spots for pairs is a bad, unfair decision. However, I don't think this is a very good argument for why. There were 23 pairs competing this season, and four spots - so a bit over 17%. There were 65 ice dance couples by my count, and 6-7 finals spots - so around 9-10.7%. And I don't feel like counting, but I know there were a lot more singles skaters, especially in the women. So it's not a joke to only have 4 spots when there are 23 pairs. That part is perfectly reasonable when compared to the other disciplines - pairs actually still has the most generous arrangement, in this respect.

The part that's a joke is reducing the JGPF spots from what it normally is, especially when they were willing to expand the singles and dance fields by 1 (even though it's not happening), plus adding Japanese wild cards. I'm guessing that the reason is because with the two Japanese wild cards, the Jr men and Jr women will require two groups instead of the usual 1 group, which affects the schedule. So reducing pairs to only one warm up helps make up for the time. And also means four fewer athletes + potentially their coaches, to balance things out. Which is absolutely unfair to pairs.


The justification is that the IOC puts limits on the number of athletes that figure skating can have at the Olympics. Ice dance also had one spot removed for these Olympics, from 24 to 23.

The ISU decides how to allocate the spots the have, so you can argue that they should give more of those spots to pairs. 30 singles, 23 dance teams and 19 pairs equals 144 athletes. You could take two more spots from dance, and give them to pairs, for 21 each and leave singles at 30. Or you could do 24 for each discipline, make it totally even. There's definitely an argument that that would be more fair.

But there's also an argument that it would be less fair. Ice dance consistently has more entries that pairs does. 42 more teams on the JGP this year (and that's not just about there being dance at more events, because a ton of feds didn't use all their pairs spots). 32 dance teams in the draw at worlds last year, vs 24 pairs. 27 dance teams vs 19 pairs teams at Worlds 2019. 25 dance teams vs 11 pairs at Euros 2019. 12 dance vs 8 pairs at 4CCs 2019. So if they had equal spots, it's harder for dance teams to make the Olympics than pairs teams, since dance is deeper right now. And singles gets more entries than dance does.

You could say that totally equal spots in each discipline would be more fair. You could also say that taking into account the general depth of the field is the more fair option.

Ideally, there would be more spots available for the Olympics. Because I'd love to see more pairs, but right now that would mean taking spots from one fo the other disciplines. You have to acknowledge that when you discuss this. Maybe you're okay with that (I might be, I haven't decided for sure), depending on how many places. But the reality is that it's not up to the ISU to just add extra spots.

Eh! There's really no justification for the ISU's total lack of leadership and vision. They operate like the sport is still in the 19th-century and early 20th-century frankly. They are clueless. Of course, it's all very complicated by this point and there are numerous financial considerations and other logistics involved in putting together events. I realize all of the complicated issues. But the overwhelming fact remains that the people running the sport of figure skating have bled it dry to fund speed skating, instead of working on making speed skating self-sufficient financially, and allowing figure skating to be adequately promoted and funded as per the fruits of its labor!

The sport is too antiquated in its competitive structure and in its limited opportunities for competitive development and growth. The problems are too numerous and ongoing, while the people in charge continue to bury their heads in the sand. There needs to be a complete and total reconsideration and revamping of how the competitive structure operates. As well, so many other ongoing analyses and conversations within the community need to be conducted, with inclusivity, to try and figure out what the sport is, where it is headed, and where skaters, fans, and other participants in the community want to see it head. As I said, it's all very overwhelming, but they need to start rethinking everything, studying every aspect, and convening widespread brainstorming sessions. The sport is firmly stuck in a mess of inadequacies, which has been tolerated by everyone for far too long.

The kicker, of course, is that nothing much is going to change. Or else change will be suddenly forced due to other occurrences, such as another public scandal, or skaters pushing the envelope and forcing constant, often ineffective rules changes ad nauseam. Meanwhile, the Mom-Pop/ cronyism approach of most feds continues unabated, along with the politics and the favoritism. Skaters give so much and go through so much, with many receiving very little in return.

 

[skylark]

A few thoughts about today's short pairs programs at Finlandia:

Vanessa and Eric. I felt that I comprehended today what they desire and hope to do in their partnership. Firstly, their SP music. I like that version of 'Shiny Happy People' because it's not all bubbly and extroverted and excitement. It's like the singers and the skaters are saying, gently and with no judgment, just a smile, "hey, you can also be shiny, happy, gleaming and glad without a lot of external acting it out." There's another kind of happiness that's a glow rather than jumping up and down. I really felt that Vanessa and Eric are demonstrating that with their skating. To some people, it lacks excitement. To me, it shows that there are myriad ways of Being ... and of skating. I always felt that there was a lyrical skater inside Eric, and here he is. Vanessa's smile as they skate just shows that she's part and parcel of that interpretation. An equal partner. I really like it. It helped their interpretation that they seem to have calmed down about competing since last time out. Lovely skate!

Ashley and Timothy. I loved their skate today. They're getting there. They showed the drama, the power and the vibrancy of that gorgeous music; they expressed it beautifully. Someone wondered a few weeks back why they put their step sequence nearly at the end. I think they did it to showcase their lines, their unison, their glorious extension throughout. So that harmonious individuality of the two partners hits you at the end with an exquisite tone, sort of like a tuning fork ringing true. I was so happy to see how happy Ashley was at skating clean. Now they've accomplished this clean skate; they know they can do it, and they can develop their elements and their artistry as they go forward. It was so good to see Ashley land the throws and jumps the way she does in practice. It's a really great step forward. Their twist and lift are usually better than they were today; now that everything seems to be in place they can refine it all. I like skaters that pay attention to the interpretation from the start.

Jessica and Brian. It was very odd, my reaction. It may have been that I was rushed through it the first time I watched the SP today; I didn't like it and thought it didn't show their strengths very well; I wanted more of what I've seen them deliver before.. Second time I watched, a new reaction. I liked the edginess and felt their movements matched the music; I even liked the music in spite of the fact it wasn't the Beatles; I experienced it as an entirely different approach to 'Come Together.' J & B changed their opening 'sudden smiles;' instead they showed a bit of irony in their smiles or moderation; I liked it. Their lift was fabulous end to end; in fact I'd say it's the one I watched today that's most memorable to me. Their twist is second to none. Jumps are coming.

Kirsten and Michael. I've always been scared when they do their twist; and it was really scary today. Even more odd to see Kirsten fall on a throw; that's one of her strongest elements and usually so beautiful with a calm, confident skate-out. Now that I think of it, I didn't notice them wobbling on the lift, which I so often do. Or maybe I just didn't notice. One thing I have noticed is that if they underperform on the SP, Kirsten will not allow herself to mess up the FS. So I expect they'll bring it all together tomorrow.

I loved Minerva and Nolan's skate, love her smile; I find them charming. The music is a good vehicle for them.

Oh! and Anastasia and Aleksandr. Along with Ashley and Timothy, they're my darlings. Their FS was my favorite and I never found Esmerelda completely enchanting as some do. But what I do find enchanting is their skating. It's powerful and playful, beauteous and at other times angular. I haven't seen them in person, but I suspect they'd be like Hubbell/Donohue -- they make a strong, unique impression as soon as they skate out onto the ice. In an interview last week, they said last year they skated it as a piece of irony, but this year it's ... I can't remember the word they used, softer or more subtle. So I think it will be more communicative to audiences as it develops over the season. I even saw a glimpse of that in the middle of the skate, with Sasha's arms being more expressive than I'd noticed before. One of the things I love so much about this pair is that Sasha is such a diva, and Nastia is completely comfortable with that. She's the beautiful steadiness. Her throw landings are a thing of beauty. Too bad the SP requirement made them switch out the lift, which was my favorite part of their SP last year. But I think they'll be re-creating the whole thing in a way I'm looking forward to seeing. Last year they made big changes and small refinements throughout the season, so I imagine we'll see that again. (It was amusing to see Nastia be mad. Yes, she was mad at herself for falling on the jump. Tamara and Sasha both tried to smooth it over, but she wasn't having it. But she stayed completely classy.)

Evgenia and Vladimir. It's a pleasure to see them skate clean (with a two-foot landing on the throw). It's always great to see skaters actually show what they're able to do. I feel they've lost something, with the gain of the Eteri method (faster, or more frenetic, or something). But it's clear that it's working for them. It's great to have the resources of the team, and there's no doubt that Eteri is a great manager. I also feel that the in-betweens of the elements are simply dead. I think it's mostly because they don't project a clear connection between them. Not one that I can feel. There are only a few seconds, Charlie White says, between elements in pairs to show what the program is about. But we need that something.

This is very incomplete because I only was able to see about half the programs. Looking forward to the free skates!

 

[Seven Sisters]

I’ve been catching up via this—check it out before it disappears:

Full pairs SP: https://vk.com/fstop2020?z=video-200696600_456239060/c0149730a932a93b94/pl_wall_-185544959

Really enjoyed the Spanish pair, who are new to me (and new to each other, too, it would appear.) Lovely lines and expression.

 

[GoneWithTheWind]

A Divine Sport published their Pairs Season Preview: https://adivinesport.com/2021/10/22/pairs-season-preview-2021/

It's a great break-down of all the top contenders for this season, assessing their strengths and what they need to improve, and discussing their programs and tech content. It also gives a nice overview of the state of pairs skating in each country, and some really positive comments about the current pairs field.

Enjoy!

 

[skylark]

^^ This article by Claire Coultier is a great read, and it's a beautifully thought-through analysis with emphasis not just on the horse-race aspect of pairs skating ... who's ahead in the prediction hierarchy (which so often proves to be not the case, and thank goodness for that!). But also Claire discusses the qualities of the top pairs which create such diversity and a wonderful 'Pairs-Watcher' experience.

Claire also covers the technical strengths and vulnerabilities of individual pairs.

 

[ladyjane]

A Divine Sport published their Pairs Season Preview: https://adivinesport.com/2021/10/22/pairs-season-preview-2021/

It's a great break-down of all the top contenders for this season, assessing their strengths and what they need to improve, and discussing their programs and tech content. It also gives a nice overview of the state of pairs skating in each country, and some really positive comments about the current pairs field.

Enjoy!

A wonderful article, providing just the kind of information a pairs lover (as I am) is looking for. I totally agree with @skylark 's comments above.

 

[auser]

^^ This article by Claire Coultier is a great read, and it's a beautifully thought-through analysis with emphasis not just on the horse-race aspect of pairs skating ... who's ahead in the prediction hierarchy (which so often proves to be not the case, and thank goodness for that!). But also Claire discusses the qualities of the top pairs which create such diversity and a wonderful 'Pairs-Watcher' experience.

Claire also covers the technical strengths and vulnerabilities of individual pairs.

I liked Claire's take on Knierim/Frazier.

 

[Weathergal]

An excellent article and very well written! Always enjoy Claire's articles. Thank you for posting!

 

[skylark]

I was replying to this in one of the threads about Skate Canada, when I realized it would be more appropriate to bring my answers here. Since I was the one who brought M/G in, off-topic, it's even more appropriate.

I would have to disagree, but I know you love M/G absolutely. Their music is what it is, but I do not think it truly does much of anything for them. They could be skating to any music, because they aren't truly expressing anything about the music. It's just playing in the background as they exhibit their astounding technical prowess (enhanced by Moskvina helping to elevate their confidence to the nth degree, while camouflaging their youthful weaknesses).

Agree to disagree. But it isn't just about my loving Mishina/Galliamov madly, which I do. It's about me (and others) seeing something new and different. I think there's a tendency to judge them with a set of values that's formed by comparing them with other pairs skating now, or by what we've valued in the past. Which is valid, because that's how competition works.

Still, I see them doing some things fresh in pairs skating that go beyond their astonishing technical prowess and the breathtakingly beautiful quality of their elements. For one thing, the complexity of their skating itself, which is different from the complexity that we're used to celebrating (rightly so!) that Sui and Han demonstrate. It's partly M/G's intricate programs, and in large part, how M/G are so well able to perform those intricacies (which, imo, is why their choreographers include those moves). Mishina and Galliamov make it all look so easy that it's easy to overlook. In Meagan Duhamel's commentary from Worlds, she said she enjoys M/G's transitions not just because they have them, but because they perform them with purpose. I think it's one of their talents that they incorporate and transform what they've been given.

Just yesterday I saw a comment, while re-watching M/G's FS on youtube, that Alexandr Galliamov is the best male Russian pairs skater since Sergei Grinkov, because of his strength, stability, quality of skating and elements ... but also because he's expressive. And this is one of the qualities that's persuading me about their Snowstorm music. Sasha's expression, as well as Nastya's. I don't know if they're expressing the music per se (as you seem certain they don't do), but they could be expressing a story they've developed, or perhaps emotions that are inspired by the story they've created, or their emotions as inspired simply by the music. All of these variations of expression are valid, tried and true. Nastya is so low-key, cheerful, down-to-earth, that in my opinion it's easy to miss everything that she contributes to the whole ambience and their expression as a duo.

If things continue in the direction they are heading in pairs, I can see M/G prematurely winning Olympic gold,

That's what some experts, powers-that-be, etc. complained about Gordeeva and Grinkov when they won 1986 and 1987 Worlds. Not those exact words, but a very similar sentiment. Even during the 1988 Olympics, some critics pointed out their lack of maturity and artistry as compared to their Soviet teammates and direct competitors, Valova/Vasiliev, who were the reigning Olympic gold medalists, as I'm sure you know.

But I recently watched one of G/G's early competitions, Europeans or Worlds in 1986, I think. Toller Cranston was doing commentary, and at the end of rhapsodizing over them in general, he said something like, 'it's been a very long time, if ever, that I've seen talent like that from a fourteen-year-old.' So some saw the reality of what G/G already brought to skating, even though I don't know how many, if any, already imagined G/G would win 1988 Olympics.

In any case, IMO, M/G need more seasoning, more tough competition, and more opportunities to grow through experience.

That's exactly what they've said they want. It doesn't mean they're not ready to win now. But 'more tough competition'? I call competing at Worlds against Sui/Han, Tarasova/Morozov, and Boikova/Kozlovskii as they were skating last year, plenty of tough competition. Not to mention that they've already beaten T/M twice this year, in spite of what we've all seen -- that the judges are trying hard to reward T/M for their unique qualities as a pair. M/G are helped by what I see as T/M possibly being intimidated competing against them -- and that's how the sport works.

Nastya and Sasha have unique gifts and strengths in pairs skating: I didn't watch junior pairs when M/G were juniors, but I saw them first in fall 2019, when they won IdF. And contrary to your insistence that it's Moskvina who's made them great, I already saw in them lots of expression and quality apart from their great technical prowess and consistency. Now that I've watched their junior programs, I don't disagree with my opinion. Funnily enough, a week or so ago, I read a Google translate of an article in the Russian press where their former coach says that everything that M/G do so well, she taught them herself, except for that one lift. Personally, I don't agree with her assessment of their talents either, but she's looking at their technical prowess, apparently.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

That's what some experts, powers-that-be, etc. complained about Gordeeva and Grinkov when they won 1986 and 1987 Worlds.

M/G are NOT Gordeeva/Grinkov though. Different skaters, different strengths, different era, altogether. G/G possessed extraordinary magic from the very beginning. No comparison to M/G, in my opinion. M/G do have potential and an opportunity ahead of them to create their own unique legacy, but they ain't there yet.

Alexandr Galliamov is the best male Russian pairs skater since Sergei Grinkov, because of his strength, stability, quality of skating and elements ... but also because he's expressive.

Ummm, perhaps Galliamov is similar to Grinkov physically, in terms of having a very well-proportioned body build and great strength. He's also got good pairs skills, but he's young and still learning, for sure. At this point, aesthetically both Galliamov and Mishina are still growing and learning. They are not fully there yet. Moskvina is helping them. But it will take time. At the moment, I think both Galliamov and MIshina are more studied and exaggerated in their expressiveness. They need more time together and more maturity. In the meanwhile, their extraordinary technical strengths and physical beauty are what the judges enthusiastically reward, which gives M/G loads of confidence competitively.

I see them doing some things fresh in pairs skating that go beyond their astonishing technical prowess and the breathtakingly beautiful quality of their elements. For one thing, the complexity of their skating itself, which is different from the complexity that we're used to celebrating (rightly so!) that Sui and Han demonstrate.

Give them time to further develop. There's nothing fresh I see at the moment, aside from their youth and their individual personalities, which come more alive off-the-ice. I know you have loved them at first sight, but they struggled a bit when first paired, which is normal for two skaters getting used to each other. Their physical beauty and tech prowess was always apparent, however they made a lot of mistakes early on. They were not consistent, nor confident. I could see them thinking, which is normal for a new young team. It can't be said enough that Moskvina helped M/G figure things out, and created programs which helped bring out their personalities last season. This season, their sp is not new, therefore not fresh. And their fp is not exciting. Hopefully, their team will bring on another choreographer to help assist next season, especially due to the death of Serge Onik.

 

[skylark]

M/G are NOT Gordeeva/Grinkov though. Different skaters, different strengths, different era, altogether. G/G possessed extraordinary magic from the very beginning. No comparison to M/G, in my opinion. M/G do have potential and an opportunity ahead of them to create their own unique legacy, but they ain't there yet.

LOL, I know Mishina/Galliomov are not Gordeeva/Grinkov. I was simply making a comparison about the commentators and experts who felt that their competitors Valova/Vasiliev were more artistic, more seasoned, more of several things. I saw G/G's magic from the moment I first saw them at 1988 Olympics on tv, and they're the reason I started watching figure skating at all. Not everyone sees the same thing in skaters, and I feel a lot of people underestimate what Mishina/Galliamov have and contribute. Just my opinion.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I feel a lot of people underestimate what Mishina/Galliamov have and contribute. Just my opinion.

Like I said, M/G have great potential, but they are still learning and developing. It's just that the pairs field is going through a transition, and there isn't the kind of competition at the top as there was circa Savchenko/Massot; Duhamel/Radford; Stolbova/Klimov; Sui/Han; Tarasova/Morosov; James/Cipres and further back re Savchenko/Szolkowy; Volosozhar/Trankov; and in the era of Sui/Han's mentors: Shen/Zhao, who competed with Pang/Tong; Sale/Pelletier; and Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze.

If there were more great veteran teams at the top currently, M/G would be competitive, but it'd be harder for them to beat a bevy of top veterans. There are no bevy of top veterans in pairs at the moment. Some of the excitement of the last few years disappeared with the retirements of Savchenko/Massot; Duhamel/Radford; Stolbova/Klimov; and James/Cipres. As well as with the injuries and later the split of Yu/Zhang.

At the moment, Sui/Han and Tarasova/Morosov are veteran holdouts trying for that Olympic glory. Both teams are likely to retire after next year's Olympics. Both teams are vulnerable to being beat (S/H due to injuries and lack of fresh ideas; T/M due to hit or miss performances and whatever insecurities they harbor), which is one of the reasons why M/G managed to win Worlds last season. And also one of the reasons why Boikova/Koslovskii leapfrogged to the top after their debut senior season, with the help of Moskvina.

Meanwhile, for me, Peng/Jin finally look like they may bring a bit of excitement to the fore this season. So far, their programs are two of the better ones I've seen in pairs this season. It has been taking P/J awhile to live up to their talent and charisma. Hopefully, they will begin to do so more fully this season.

I call competing at Worlds against Sui/Han, Tarasova/Morozov, and Boikova/Kozlovskii as they were skating last year, plenty of tough competition.

As I mentioned above, current pairs competition is not close to what we've seen in the past, for reasons I discussed. Plus, all three top teams you named made mistakes at 2021 Worlds, which allowed M/G to capitalize with their confidence in the new programs they had made for them under their new coach, Moskvina. As we know, M/G were fortunate to be sent to Worlds (they had experienced illness and lost training time, which had them not placing well at some comps in the lead-up to Worlds). Anyway, sending M/G to Worlds was the right decision by Rusfed.

 

[Colonel Green]

As I mentioned above, current pairs competition is not close to what we've seen in the past, for reasons I discussed. Plus, all three top teams you named made mistakes at 2021 Worlds, which allowed M/G to capitalize with their confidence in the new programs they had made for them under their new coach, Moskvina.

It's pairs -- there are virtually always mistakes, even by those on the podium (and not-infrequently even by the champions).

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

It's pairs -- there are virtually always mistakes, even by those on the podium (and not-infrequently even by the champions).

Was I talking about mistakes mainly? Nope. The mistakes that were made by all three top teams (two of them veterans) at 2021 Worlds were unusual and costly, not something we've "virtually always" seen at the very top.

Obviously, I am mostly talking about a transitional phase in pairs (which tends to happen in post Olympics years) that has seen quite a number of former top teams retiring. I for one, do not feel much excitement in pairs currently. Had James/Cipres still been on the scene, there would be more excitement. Had James/Radford had better results and more impactful programs, there would be more excitement. Had Moore-Towers/Marinaro been able to overcome their angst and ratchet their competitive chops up a notch, there might be more excitement; Had Walsh/Michaud been able to show any improvement this season, at the least things might be more exciting for Canada. Had the talented U.S. teams hit their marks better and performed with more consistency and confidence, there would be more excitement. The most excitement in pairs so far this season has been the compelling programs of Peng/Jin, and the rise of Miura/Kihara (but even then, M/K's programs are not new).

My main point: There certainly is not the depth of competition we've seen in recent prior years. There are a lot of young and new teams developing. But for the time being, I don't sense or feel much of the energy and excitement we saw with Savchenko/Massot; Duhamel/Radford; James/Cipres; Stolbova/Klimov; Tarasova/Morosov; and Sui/Han at their best. Mishina/Galliamov were exciting to see make a huge impact last season, but they aren't bringing anything truly interesting this season, IMO.

If Tarasova/Morosov can get their act together consistently for the second half of the season, and if Sui/Han can tap into their past greatness and overcome the so-so quality of their new programs, then maybe we will see a bit of excitement when the Olympics rolls around. Especially so if Miura/Kihara continue to perform well, and if Peng/Jin fulfill the potential of their new programs. Mishina/Galliamov will be given great scores if they continue to skate clean, but their programs are NOT exciting this season. Who knows whether or not Boikova/Koslovskii will manage to overcome their shortcomings and their noses being out-of-joint to try and give their training mates (M/G) a run for those high scores usually reserved for Russian teams.

ETA:
I'm also not happy that Stellato/Deschamps have not been given more opportunities to compete this season. But that's part of the problem with the current competitive structure.

Oh, and I have to say it has been pleasant to see the sharp improvements by Cain-G/LeDuc, and how they toughed it out against the lowball perceptions of judges to end up winning three international bronze medals so far this season.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Nah, to me, personally, their programs are just not to my taste. The music is usually weak, slow, no accents, no power. Often an emo song to go with their deer-in-headlights expressions. I feel that way about a lot of pairs music, unfortunately. I like KMT/MM as a pair, I would love to like their programs as well.

Not all Kirsten/Michael's programs have been this type of music and choreo though. They've mixed it up over the time they've been together. I don't know why some fans are always dissing emo ballads. Some of them work well. I don't have a problem with that music genre. I enjoy a variety of music genres. Kirsten/Michael, like every pair team, try to select music that motivates and challenges, in addition to simply experimenting to find out what type of music can define their partnership.

For Kirsten/Michael, they developed a special relationship with Julie Marcotte I think, especially when she choreographed Un Ange Passe for them in 2016-17 season (they used that successful fp for 2 seasons). A number of key moves in that original program have been revisited in a few other programs since then (e.g., the quick running steps, etc.) So this is likely why they stayed with the emotional, reflective ballad genre over succeeding years of their career trajectory. Un Ange Passe was a breakthrough program for them in terms of building confidence and developing a palpable connection with each other on the ice. As I recall, K-MT/MM have spoken about being impacted by COVID and the lockdown, leading to more reflective programs (that some fans may find angsty). For sure, K-MT/MM have had their competitive momentum slowed since last season when they competed in only one virtual domestic comp. In addition, they are no longer working with Julie Marcotte, who created their fp. So any fine-tuning needed this season isn't coming from the original choreographer, if it is coming at all.


Moving the conversation here, since this discussion is about pairs generally (re liking or not liking a team; disliking their music genre, etc.) It's preference in terms of not liking a team or not liking their music @pearly and @LadyB and others. There are plenty of teams to choose from, especially Russian teams. And the American teams are very deep, competitive and talented, which is great to witness.

I for one enjoy variety and competitiveness (rather than domination at the top by only Russian teams). More variety and excitement was happening in pairs during the era of Sav/Mas; Duhamel/Radford; Stolbova/Klimov; James/Cipres; and Sui/Han & Tarasova/Morosov (who are still skating in perhaps their final seasons), et al. Plus, prior generation including, Sav/Szol; Tat/Max, Pang/Tong; Shen/Zhao; et al.

Edited to correct spelling of Hongbo Zhao's name

 

[coldblueeyes]

I for one enjoy variety and competitiveness (rather than domination at the top by only Russian teams). More variety and excitement was happening in pairs during the era of Sav/Mas; Duhamel/Radford; Stolbova/Klimov; James/Cipres; and Sui/Han & Tarasova/Morosov (who are still skating in perhaps their final seasons), et al. Plus, prior generation including, Sav/Szol; Tat/Max, Pang/Tong; Shen/Zhou; et al.

This is a very fair statement. But probably the most obvious reason as to why pairs isn't more competitive nowadays, in some way, is that so many pairs are still too inconsistent. It's almost impossible to make up any deficit with PCS if you have constant problems in jumps. I'm a big fan of M/G, but really, the reason why they are rewarded is that they are one of the most consistent pairs of the current era--and with very difficult content. I'm sure they'd be surpassed by some three or four teams, at least, if there were others that could deliver.

Sui/Han seem to have been more centered these past competitions, barring their common mistakes, and T/M are hard to predict. Other than them, we never really know what to expect from teams in the top 10. Americans and Canadians currently are constantly plagued by inconsistent jumping, and that opened the door for a team like M/K to move up the standings, which is another pair that would have a harder time to advance had the other teams managed to compete more consistently.

ISU seemed bent on "stabilizing" pairs this quad, with fewer rewards for harder content. But it also stagnated competition a bit, so I'm not sure it paid off. And the pairs are not more consistent because of this change in the rules.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

^^ I would have to differ with you to some degree @coldblueeyes . You are citing a lot of things mostly related to inconsistencies. There are always inconsistencies and problems with jumps across the pairs field, not just in the U.S. It's a myth that only U.S. teams have jump inconsistencies. It's a myth which refuses to die. Have U.S. teams been less competitive post 2002 Worlds? Yes, for sure. But at the same time, we had teams in the lean years who set world records, and were great with lift innovation (Evora/Ladwig re lifts; plus Inoue/Baldwin and Vise/Trent set records for first throw 3-axel and first throw quad salchow in competition, respectively). These are among other notable contributions by U.S. pairs teams, despite the way U.S. pairs continue to be looked down on. Around the time of Scimeca/Knierim pairing, and in the aftermath of Denney/Frazier winning junior Worlds, a new day was dawning for U.S. pairs.

The problem for U.S. pairs is that the trajectory was disrupted and waylaid for the promise unfolding for those teams, due to Alexa's illness and Haven's knee injury. Those two teams had huge promise, but were only able to achieve a modicum of what they might have, because they had to start over and rebuild after illness and injury. So, it's great seeing Alexa/Brandon form a successful new pair from those former teams. It will be so fitting if K/F are able to accomplish more and set a new, higher bar for U.S. pairs, along with Calalang/Johnson, Cain-G/LeDuc, and Lu/Mitrofanov, et al. Crossing my fingers for Liu/O'Shea to be able to return safely post their concussions. For sure, Kayne/O'Shea were a big part of paving the way for the current deep competitiveness (along with the Knierims, Denney/Frazier, and Castelli/Shnapir as well-- Castelli/Tran could have been great too, but they had too much to overcome).

Today, a lot of teams look to U.S. pairs and watch U.S. nationals, not just for singles and ice dance either. Everyone knows that U.S. pairs are much more competitive today, but even the judges don't seem to wish to fully acknowledge their quality and strengths. Meanwhile, too many fans continue targeting only U.S. teams with being inconsistent on sbs jumps. But that's not true.

What I was discussing about pairs overall simply has to do with bringing excitement and difference to the ice. We have been seeing a lot of variety and excitement in pairs over the past 20 years or so, with a few cycles of teams. What's going on now, apparently, is a kind of renaissance for Russian teams. While they've always been around post the last Russian Olympic gold medal pairs teams, there wasn't a slew of Russian pairs teams dominating at the top, as much as it appears to be returning to over the last few years, with the re-emergence of Moskvina. In my opinion, the advent of Savchenko/Szolkowy circa 2005, changed the pairs landscape. A number of teams with untraditional looks and aesthetics were inspired by S/S to explore expressing their strengths, without succumbing to the same-old, same-old notion of classical, traditional Russian pairs aesthetic. Even Russian teams like Stolbova/Klimov and Tat/Max were inspired by Sav/Szol. Duhamel/ Radford were inspired by S/S as well, in addition to setting a new technical bar for pairs.

We are going through the usual cycle transition these days (post Olympic-season retirements, and in the midst of the ongoing pandemic impacts challenging everyone). Plus, Russian pairs teams are seeming to grow on trees and sprouting all over the place, with magical Moskvina leading the way, as Nina Mozer has segued to chiefly offering training camps and consulting/assisting global teams, including U.S. teams.

I know some people may disagree, but the loss of Duhamel/Radford, Sav/Mas, and James/Cipres (along with the injury woes and light competition of Sui/Han as they try to hold on just for Olympic gold glory), has sucked much of the excitement out of the pairs field. Positives though are the burgeoning U.S. teams, and the continued innovation in pairs moves, spearheaded by ice dance choreographers and epitomized by the presence and programs of James/Cipres over their final three seasons -- and by Sav/Mas' final programs. Complications besetting pairs and all the disciplines have been some of the ISU's bonehead rules changes and indecisiveness, as opposed to leadership and vision.

 

[ladyjane]

I am a great lover of pairs. Most of you know that (at least anyone posting here, or else in some of the specific pairs threads of certain countries). I must confess to being slightly less excited than before the last Olympics. But then, I was (and am) a great fan of Savchenko/Massot who had that wonderful FS in their final year. But they also had a great FS programme the year before. I was (and am) also a fan of Sui/Han, Duhamel/Radford and Trasova/Morosov. Yes, and James/Cipres as well as Della Monica/Guarise and Marchei/Hotarek also. I had a great feeling for all of them, but for SavchenkoMassot in particular. I remember their programmes with great fondness (except for T/M's FS in that season which wasn't up to par).

Having said that, I still have a lot of teams to be excited about, if perhaps less with a kind of 'want them to win' feeling for either of them compared to four years ago. I still love Sui/Han who are so expressive, I still love Tarasova/Morosov (the one team whom I really would wish to skate well at the OG, because they had such a bummer at the last one), I genuinely like Mishina/Galliamov and since this weekend I am really a fan of Kavliachenko/Khodykin because they bring something new to the table. I'm excited about James/Radford, a really big fan of Cain-Gribble/Leduc, and I also like and admire Boikova/Kovlovskii, Knierim/Frazier and Calalang/Johnson. I'm really excited about Japan coming up with a great Pairs team as well as Spain and Hungary (I'm still in love with Ioulia's smile). Also, there are quite a few interesting teams on the rise for the next cycle like Lu/Mitrofanov and Liu/O'Shea (I so hope they're okay). Maybe one or more of these teams will give me back the excitement I felt in 2017-2018.

I've also found joy if not exactly excitement in watching pairs from smaller Federations (yes, I come from one of those) or second tier couples from the bigger ones. It was rather exciting to see a Finnish couple for the first time (for me at least) for example. Or seeing couples improving, if not yet at the GP level, but still going forward. It's why I tend to watch Challengers with Pairs, or Senior B's with pairs so eagerly.

So, yes, less excitement than four years ago, but still a lot to enjoy!

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

^^ Adding to my earlier post, I would have to say for Canada, the loss first of Kirsten/Dylan who were fourth at *2014 Worlds behind Duhamel/Radford in third, was huge. Although, D/R took off and later won 2 World championships without having to face their former close rivalry with K&D. Of course, Julianne/Charlie came along for Canada, and they were magical. But a concussion signaled their ultimate split, and while Luba/Charlie could have been a boon for Canada, Charlie apparently wasn't really into competing again emotionally. Also, Luba/Dylan were very good, but he suffered a hand injury which scuttled their chances of competing at the 2018 Olympics.

KM-T/MM took up the slack for Canada, but their partnership from the beginning was never smooth sailing. They worked extremely hard, and they also benefited from some of the challenges and splits by other teams. Julie Marcotte also helped them a great deal. That's why I say it could be a bit emotionally disconcerting, especially for Kirsten apparently, having to overcome the fact that Julie now coaches and choreographs for James/Radford (even if it is only for one season). K-MT/MM have also said this will be their final season. As has been mentioned before, Kirsten and Trennt might make a super team, but the age difference and commitments to their current partners has not made that possible. It's only been a Canadian fan who even came up with the idea. Once I heard it, I haven't been able to get it out of my head, as I think they might have melded exceptionally well. Still, that's pie-in-the-sky. What the current landscape is, is what we all have to accept. And of course debate, and hope for better things to come.


*If you take a look art 2014 Worlds, you will notice how only one Russian team is in the top five, after the retirement of Tat/Max post Olympics. So this was a transitional Worlds, but a lot of top teams still competed (this was Sav/Szol's final world championship win). And notice how two Canadian teams are ahead of two top Chinese teams and also way in front of the two lesser talented Russian teams who tended to take up mid-tier placements, but were never very exciting or exceptionally skilled overall.