Junior Grand Prix Final Judging Scandal Under Investigation???

[chuckm]

Another Scandal?I'm really getting sick of this:banging: Wait, how do we know which judge is which, since the judging is anonomous?? I'll believe it when my question is answered. If it is true, however, I really though this new system would stop things like this. What scares me the most was that it seems the whole pannel was involved.

Judging is not anonymous in the JGP. The identities of the judges are known, and you can match each judge to his/her scores. There's no random selection in the JGP either. ALL the scores count.

 

[netnuts]

http://forums.isu.org/viewtopic.php?t=1016&start=30

More...

edge17:

Both the referee and the Canadians will file a protest, and when you look at the protocols its full of +3 and +2's for the russians, and the poor scarificed received -1 and -2's. The younger teams were sacraficed in order to give the older teams more points leading into the senior ranks.

This " sport " has the worst juding or refereeing in all sports. If you dont want the stand to be empty in a few years, then it better change. There are good reasons why the Asians dont participate heavily in dance, who blames them. If i had kids, i would have to be a nut to put them in ice dancing, hundreds of thousands of $$$$ , and cheating Russains making sure their teams land on top

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

If it stays 2 and 4, it could go either way. As Mathman said, as long as certain judges work both ends of the system (raise your guy, dump his rivals) instead of scoring the skating fairly and all the other judges base their scoring mostly on the skating, then justice will not be done.

Until the FD, there is no American judge. The American in the FD can push S&B scores higher but do they not need back-up and who among the western world will back the Amerians? Honesty, of course, plays a roll here.

Putting a team down, also needs back-up. Again, western judges do not work together.

It's how you play the game. Junior Worlds will be identical scoring as it is in the JGP Final.



Joe

 

[gsrossano]

Hope the following formats correctly.

For the amusement of conspiracy theorists.

POINT TOTALS AND PLACES FOR EACH JUDGE FOR JGPF DCD

J1 J2 J3 J4 J5 J6 J7 J8 J9

1 1 1 1 2 2 3 4 1 Maria MONKO & Ilia TKACHENKO
34.54 32.76 34.04 37.59 33.14 34.40 32.51 29.99 35.45

2 1 2 2 1 1 2 2 2 Kristina GORSHKOVA & Vitali BUTIKOV
32.84 32.76 31.96 35.16 34.16 35.23 32.96 30.89 33.08

3 4 3 3 3 3 1 1 4 Emily SAMUELSON & Evan BATES
30.51 30.01 31.08 31.64 32.14 32.01 34.41 33.28 30.83

4 3 6 4 4 5 4 6 6 Madison CHOCK & Greg ZUERLEIN
28.81 32.53 27.05 30.00 31.64 27.68 29.06 27.81 27.43

5 6 4 5 6 4 6 5 5 Vanessa CRONE & Paul POIRIER
27.05 27.86 30.75 27.36 26.36 28.11 26.85 28.86 27.55

8 5 8 8 7 7 7 3 3 Isabella PAJARDI & Stefano CARUSO
24.29 27.89 22.90 26.04 25.43 26.66 25.60 30.01 31.09

7 7 7 7 5 6 5 7 7 Alisa AGAFONOVA & Dmitri DUN
24.91 26.55 23.80 26.24 27.36 27.05 28.44 27.74 24.91

6 8 5 6 8 8 8 8 8 Ekaterina RIAZANOVA & John GUERREIRO
25.18 25.73 27.30 26.48 25.41 25.04 23.74 27.13 23.86


POINT TOTALS AND PLACES FOR EACH JUDGE FOR JGPF DOD

J1 J2 J3 J4 J5 J6 J7 J8 J9

1 1 3 1 1 1 2 2 1 Maria MONKO & Ilia TKACHENKO
55.95 54.55 51.45 59.05 58.10 58.95 55.30 55.70 58.60

2 2 1 3 2 3 1 3 3 Emily SAMUELSON & Evan BATES
53.25 53.55 55.50 54.30 57.70 54.30 61.30 55.60 57.25

3 3 4 2 3 2 4 1 2 Kristina GORSHKOVA & Vitali BUTIKOV
53.15 52.95 51.20 56.75 56.15 55.30 53.45 55.85 57.70

4 4 2 8 7 5 3 4 4 Vanessa CRONE & Paul POIRIER
49.60 49.25 54.80 47.30 46.75 47.55 53.70 50.05 51.65

7 6 5 4 4 4 6 5 7 Alisa AGAFONOVA & Dmitri DUN
47.25 46.75 45.45 49.30 51.05 48.45 48.20 49.45 46.35

6 5 6 5 6 6 8 7 5 Isabella PAJARDI & Stefano CARUSO
47.50 46.90 45.15 49.00 47.85 47.25 45.20 46.55 49.90

8 7 7 6 5 7 5 8 6 Madison CHOCK & Greg ZUERLEIN
46.85 46.65 44.05 47.85 48.35 47.00 51.35 45.15 47.70

5 8 8 7 8 8 7 6 8 Ekaterina RIAZANOVA & John GUERREIRO
47.65 44.55 43.10 47.35 46.10 46.90 47.15 47.10 45.15


POINT TOTALS AND PLACES FOR EACH JUDGE FOR JGPF DFD

J1 J2 J3 J4 J5 J6 J7 J8 J9

1 1 3 1 1 1 2 1 1 Maria MONKO & Ilia TKACHENKO
88.11 87.61 80.61 87.86 85.36 86.55 83.43 83.36 85.86

2 2 2 3 2 3 1 2 2 Emily SAMUELSON & Evan BATES
85.11 87.55 86.68 80.43 84.11 78.61 91.30 83.11 83.49

3 3 4 2 3 2 5 3 3 Kristina GORSHKOVA & Vitali BUTIKOV
82.56 82.13 71.44 83.06 83.06 79.81 72.81 78.13 82.38

5 4 1 4 4 5 4 4 4 Vanessa CRONE & Paul POIRIER
77.81 81.06 86.88 78.06 77.56 72.75 80.06 77.81 82.19

4 5 5 5 5 4 3 5 5 Madison CHOCK & Greg ZUERLEIN
78.86 78.68 70.86 77.05 77.43 74.93 80.68 73.61 78.74

6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 7 Alisa AGAFONOVA & Dmitri DUN
71.01 69.83 63.51 73.76 75.76 71.45 68.83 72.01 67.89

7 8 7 7 7 7 8 7 8 Ekaterina RIAZANOVA & John GUERREIRO
69.01 67.33 61.76 68.76 68.51 66.76 64.33 66.83 62.70

8 7 8 8 8 8 7 8 6 Isabella PAJARDI & Stefano CARUSO
66.31 67.88 61.63 68.56 68.13 65.38 64.75 65.13 68.94

Guess it doesn't format too well. Maybe you can make a little sense of it.

 

[bekalc]

I think a lot of us have to remember that we haven't actually seen the competition. Someone on another board, who was at the actual competition and at the practices, said the results were quite fair. That the Russian team who won, won quite fairly, that they and the team who took second had all level fours, but the Russian team had more connection/flow accross the ice.

They felt the team who took bronze, also took bronze fairly as well. If the right three teams ended up on the podium fairly, isn't that all of what's important?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think a lot of us have to remember that we haven't actually seen the competition. Someone on another board, who was at the actual competition and at the practices, said the results were quite fair. That the Russian team who won, won quite fairly, that they and the team who took second had all level fours, but the Russian team had more connection/flow accross the ice.

They felt the team who took bronze, also took bronze fairly as well. If the right three teams ended up on the podium fairly, isn't that all of what's important?

Depends on that one eye witness and his/her opinion, doesn't it? Do you not think other eye witnesses would disagree with the results?

Joe

 

[oxade21]

(there is an error here in the FD - when this message goes away it has been fixed)

Hope the following formats correctly.

For the amusement of conspiracy theorists.

POINT TOTALS AND PLACES FOR EACH JUDGE FOR JGPF DCD

J1 J2 J3 J4 J5 J6 J7 J8 J9

1 1 1 1 2 2 3 4 1 Maria MONKO & Ilia TKACHENKO
34.54 32.76 34.04 37.59 33.14 34.40 32.51 29.99 35.45

2 1 2 2 1 1 2 2 2 Kristina GORSHKOVA & Vitali BUTIKOV
32.84 32.76 31.96 35.16 34.16 35.23 32.96 30.89 33.08

3 4 3 3 3 3 1 1 4 Emily SAMUELSON & Evan BATES
30.51 30.01 31.08 31.64 32.14 32.01 34.41 33.28 30.83

4 3 6 4 4 5 4 6 6 Madison CHOCK & Greg ZUERLEIN
28.81 32.53 27.05 30.00 31.64 27.68 29.06 27.81 27.43

5 6 4 5 6 4 6 5 5 Vanessa CRONE & Paul POIRIER
27.05 27.86 30.75 27.36 26.36 28.11 26.85 28.86 27.55

8 5 8 8 7 7 7 3 3 Isabella PAJARDI & Stefano CARUSO
24.29 27.89 22.90 26.04 25.43 26.66 25.60 30.01 31.09

7 7 7 7 5 6 5 7 7 Alisa AGAFONOVA & Dmitri DUN
24.91 26.55 23.80 26.24 27.36 27.05 28.44 27.74 24.91

6 8 5 6 8 8 8 8 8 Ekaterina RIAZANOVA & John GUERREIRO
25.18 25.73 27.30 26.48 25.41 25.04 23.74 27.13 23.86



POINT TOTALS AND PLACES FOR EACH JUDGE FOR JGPF DOD

J1 J2 J3 J4 J5 J6 J7 J8 J9

1 1 3 1 1 1 2 2 1 Maria MONKO & Ilia TKACHENKO
55.95 54.55 51.45 59.05 58.10 58.95 55.30 55.70 58.60

2 2 1 3 2 3 1 3 3 Emily SAMUELSON & Evan BATES
53.25 53.55 55.50 54.30 57.70 54.30 61.30 55.60 57.25

3 3 4 2 3 2 4 1 2 Kristina GORSHKOVA & Vitali BUTIKOV
53.15 52.95 51.20 56.75 56.15 55.30 53.45 55.85 57.70

4 4 2 8 7 5 3 4 4 Vanessa CRONE & Paul POIRIER
49.60 49.25 54.80 47.30 46.75 47.55 53.70 50.05 51.65

7 6 5 4 4 4 6 5 7 Alisa AGAFONOVA & Dmitri DUN
47.25 46.75 45.45 49.30 51.05 48.45 48.20 49.45 46.35

6 5 6 5 6 6 8 7 5 Isabella PAJARDI & Stefano CARUSO
47.50 46.90 45.15 49.00 47.85 47.25 45.20 46.55 49.90

8 7 7 6 5 7 5 8 6 Madison CHOCK & Greg ZUERLEIN
46.85 46.65 44.05 47.85 48.35 47.00 51.35 45.15 47.70

5 8 8 7 8 8 7 6 8 Ekaterina RIAZANOVA & John GUERREIRO
47.65 44.55 43.10 47.35 46.10 46.90 47.15 47.10 45.15


POINT TOTALS AND PLACES FOR EACH JUDGE FOR JGPF DFD

J1 J2 J3 J4 J5 J6 J7 J8 J9

1 1 3 1 1 1 2 1 1 Maria MONKO & Ilia TKACHENKO
88.11 87.61 80.61 87.86 85.36 86.55 83.43 83.36 85.86

2 2 2 3 2 3 1 2 2 Emily SAMUELSON & Evan BATES
85.11 87.55 86.68 80.43 84.11 78.61 91.30 83.11 83.49

3 3 5 2 3 2 5 3 3 Kristina GORSHKOVA & Vitali BUTIKOV
82.06 81.63 71.44 82.56 83.06 80.31 74.31 78.63 82.38

5 4 1 4 5 5 4 4 4 Vanessa CRONE & Paul POIRIER
77.81 81.06 86.88 78.06 77.56 72.75 80.06 77.81 82.19

4 5 4 5 4 4 3 5 5 Madison CHOCK & Greg ZUERLEIN
79.86 79.68 72.36 78.05 78.43 74.93 81.68 74.11 79.74

6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 7 Alisa AGAFONOVA & Dmitri DUN
69.51 68.33 63.01 73.26 75.26 69.95 68.83 70.51 67.89

7 8 7 8 8 7 8 7 8 Ekaterina RIAZANOVA & John GUERREIRO
69.01 67.33 61.76 68.76 68.51 66.76 64.33 66.83 62.70

8 7 8 7 7 8 7 8 6 Isabella PAJARDI & Stefano CARUSO
66.81 67.38 61.63 69.06 68.63 65.88 64.75 65.63 68.44

Guess it doesn't format too well. Maybe you can make a little sense of it.

LMFAO!!!

 

[chuckm]

(there is an error here in the FD - when this message goes away it has been fixed)

Hope the following formats correctly.

For the amusement of conspiracy theorists.

POINT TOTALS AND PLACES FOR EACH JUDGE FOR JGPF DCD
POINT TOTALS AND PLACES FOR EACH JUDGE FOR JGPF DOD
POINT TOTALS AND PLACES FOR EACH JUDGE FOR JGPF DOD

Guess it doesn't format too well. Maybe you can make a little sense of it.

Are these numbers based on the PCS scores?

I did the same exercise, but my numbers were different because I multiplied each raw score by the factor(s) applied for each segment. It makes a huge difference in the FD, because SS is multiplied by 1.25 and Linking Footwork by 1.75.

The numbers would be lower in the CD because the factors there are .75 for SS and TI and .5 for PE and IN.

 

[chuckm]

Depends on that one eye witness and his/her opinion, doesn't it? Do you not think other eye witnesses would disagree with the results?

Joe

Exactly. Especially if the 'eyewitness' was someone from the same country/background as M/T and G/B.

To them, the result would be 'fair', even if they knew it was a pre-engineered result.

I know the eyewitness referenced, and that is a very nice, honest person who loves ice dancing, but she consistently prefers Russian skaters over those from other federations. She tries to be fair, but her descriptions are colored to some extent by her personal preferences.

 

[oleada]

FWIW, Zueva wasn't there with Chock and Zuerlein. Only Shpilband was. The rumor does call the coach a "she".

 

[Mathman]

Well, lets see. According to Rossano's calculations, USA put Samuelson and Bates first in the CD (only one other first place vote), first in the OD (only one other first place vote), and first in the FD (the only judge to do so).

Canada put Crone and Poirier 4th in the CD (only one other judge had them that high), 2nd in the OD (no other judge had them that high), and first in the FD (all the other judges had them 4th or 5th).

OK, seriously, can’t the ISU see that there is a problem?

The basic unit of the ISU is the member national federation.

Each national federation fields a team. The team comprises federation officials, judges, coaches, skaters, etc. Each member of the team, including the judges, is expected to do his or her part to achieve the common goal – winning as many medals for the federation as possible.

What’s wrong with this picture?

 

[chuckm]

FWIW, Zueva wasn't there with Chock and Zuerlein. Only Shpilband was. The rumor does call the coach a "she".

People for whom English is not a first language sometimes misuse personal pronouns. I used to work with a guy who always referred to BOTH sexes using "she" and "her".

 

[bekalc]

Now that we have Monko/Tkachenko safely in first place, with Samuelson/Bates second, here are Gorshkova/Butikov and Crone/Poirier fighting it out for bronze.

Total GOEs earned in the free dance.

Gorshkova and Butikov.

Canadian judge: 4.0
RUS / UKR / GEO (average): 7.7
Rest of the panel (average): 6.6

Crone and Poirier.

Canadian judge: 13.0
RUS / UKR / GEO (average): 4.3
Rest of panel (average): 7.8

And the Canadian judge was fair? I noticed that the Canadian/Us judges tended to be a lot friendly towards N. American skaters than they were to the Russian skaters. Both the Canadian/ American judges gave the Russians their lowest scores.

Say what you will, but the Russians didn't give their winners as high GOE marks and maybe even PCS but I'll have to check, as the Canadians and the US gave their people. The US judges gave their team 3 more points, than the Russians gave theres. And the US scores there were clearly out of line with the rest of the judges. The American judge was quite friendly to the Canadian team.

Quite frankly, I'm trying to understand why it matters to the Ukranian judge if a Russian/American team wins.

All I'm saying is before people cry cheating, perhaps we should all sit and watch the skating. I'm not saying that anything isn't fishy it is. I think the North Americans bias towards North Americans and the Eastern European bias towards Eastern Europeans IS sickening.

 

[laceup]

Is the referee not there to go over things in the end and make sure that if there is inappropriate activities then they are to be dealt with ... why are they not going over the video when the judging is so out of wack and asking these judges to explain why they gave such a low or such a high mark. If you have a room full of knowledgable people and the judge has to sit there and watch the video and explain their marks then maybe they will be more honest dispite what their federation wants ... am I just dreaming???? If they cannot properly explain why they gave such a high or low GOE then put them on suspention - get suspended two times and your done - there have to be some honest judges out there!!! Or again, am I just dreaming???

 

[chuckm]

And the Canadian judge was fair? I noticed that the Canadian/Us judges tended to be a lot friendly towards N. American skaters than they were to the Russian skaters. Both the Canadian/ American judges gave the Russians their lowest scores.

NOT true. The US judge gave Monko/Tkachenko a cumulative GOE of 10, the same cumulative GOE given by the POL, CZE, UKR and ITA judges. The US judge's GOE score for M/T was second only to S/B's. OTOH, the Russian judge gave S/B a cumulative GOE score of 7, while the POL and JPN judges gave S/B 10, and CZE and CAN gave them 12. Worse, the GEO judge gave S/B a GOE score of 4, while giving M/T 9.

The Canadian judge's ranked GOEs: 1-C/P, 2-S/B, 3-M/T, 4-G/B, 5-C/Z. So C/Z was the lowest ranked team.
The US judges ranked GOEs: 1-S/B, 2-M/T, 3-C/Z, 4-C/P, 5-G/B. So US scored the Russian teams 2nd and 5th.

The Russian judge: 1-M/T, 2-G/B, 3-S/B, 4-C/P, 5-C/Z.
The Ukrainian judge: 1-M/T, 2-G/B and S/B, 4-Ukrainian team A/D, C/P and C/Z
The Georgian judge: 1-M/T, 2-G/B, 3-S/B, 4-Ukrainian team A/D, C/P and C/Z

It's amazing how much in sync these 3 judges were. It's the same with the PCS scores, and the scores for the two Russian teams are WAY higher than for the other teams.

Quite frankly, I'm trying to understand why it matters to the Ukranian judge if a Russian/American team wins.

The Ukrainian judge didn't want the Ukrainian team, which got in as the first alternate when the 2nd Canadian team withdrew, to finish last. So the deal was the Ukrainian judge scores the top Russian teams high and their closest rivals low, and the third Russian team would get to be the anchor. That IS what happened.

 

[gsrossano]

Are these numbers based on the PCS scores?

Protocols are converted to a numerical database and then run through an accounting program. PC weights are included. Total scores calculated through the program matches the protocols. I did a couple of skaters by hand and they agree with what I posted. Spent a little time looking to see if there was a bug in the software but couldn't find one. Let me know what number you get for ONE skater from ONE judge in the FD and I will look again for a bug.

As for the controversy, I don't see anything suspicious in the marks other that the usual obvious national bias for a few judges and a few skaters. Block judging does not seem particularly obvious in these numbers (IMO).

 

[Mathman]

Is the referee not there to go over things in the end and make sure that if there is inappropriate activities then they are to be dealt with ... why are they not going over the video when the judging is so out of wack and asking these judges to explain why they gave such a low or such a high mark. If you have a room full of knowledgable people and the judge has to sit there and watch the video and explain their marks then maybe they will be more honest dispite what their federation wants ... am I just dreaming???? If they cannot properly explain why they gave such a high or low GOE then put them on suspention - get suspended two times and your done - there have to be some honest judges out there!!! Or again, am I just dreaming???

Actually, there is quite an elaborate procedure for evaluating the judges and ferreting out evidence of collusion, bias, and just plain bad judging.

There is a meeting hosted by the referee after each event. (I'm not sure what goes on at these meetings). But then, if any judges marks are outside the "corridore" set by the panel as a whole, those marks comes up for review. The judge can then defend explain his/her marks, justify them with videos, etc. If you get three bad marks, then you are subject to a penalty or demotion, like you can't judge ISU championships for a year, or something lie that.

As far as i know, the transcripts of these procedures are not made public, so no one outside the inner circle really knows what action, if any, took place.

And the Canadian judge was fair?

Fair? It was twice as high as the rest of the panel! hwell:

 

[gsrossano]

More fun with numbers. Decide for yourselves how much the judges are in lock step -- or not.

Free Dance

Points and ranking for SS + TR
(note how J5 could not make a decision for the top 3)

J1 J2 J3 J4 J5 J6 J7 J8 J9

1 1 3 1 1 1 2 1 1 Maria MONKO & Ilia TKACHENKO
20.56 20.56 18.31 20.56 19.81 21.00 18.63 19.06 19.81

2 2 1 3 1 3 1 1 3 Emily SAMUELSON & Evan BATES
19.81 20.25 20.13 18.63 19.81 19.06 21.00 19.06 18.94

2 3 4 2 1 2 5 3 2 Kristina GORSHKOVA & Vitali BUTIKOV
19.81 19.38 15.94 19.81 19.81 19.81 17.56 18.63 19.38

4 4 1 4 4 5 3 4 4 Vanessa CRONE & Paul POIRIER
18.31 18.31 20.13 18.31 18.31 16.50 18.31 17.56 18.44

4 5 5 5 5 4 4 6 5 Madison CHOCK & Greg ZUERLEIN
18.31 17.88 15.31 18.00 17.88 17.13 17.88 16.06 16.94

6 6 7 6 6 5 7 5 7 Alisa AGAFONOVA & Dmitri DUN
16.81 16.38 13.06 16.81 17.56 16.50 14.88 16.81 14.69

8 8 7 8 8 8 8 8 8 Ekaterina RIAZANOVA & John GUERREIRO
15.31 14.88 13.06 15.31 15.31 15.31 14.13 14.88 12.75

7 7 6 6 7 7 6 7 6 Isabella PAJARDI & Stefano CARUSO
16.06 15.63 14.13 16.81 16.38 15.63 15.75 15.63 16.19



Points and ranking for PE + CH + IN

J1 J2 J3 J4 J5 J6 J7 J8 J9

1 2 3 1 1 1 2 1 1 Maria MONKO & Ilia TKACHENKO
21.25 20.75 18.50 21.00 20.75 21.25 20.00 20.00 20.75

2 1 2 3 3 3 1 2 4 Emily SAMUELSON & Evan BATES
20.50 21.00 20.25 19.00 20.00 18.75 22.00 19.25 19.25

3 3 4 2 2 2 5 3 2 Kristina GORSHKOVA & Vitali BUTIKOV
20.25 20.25 16.00 20.25 20.25 20.00 17.25 18.50 20.00

4 4 1 4 5 5 3 4 3 Vanessa CRONE & Paul POIRIER
19.00 19.25 20.75 18.25 18.25 16.75 19.25 18.25 19.75

5 5 5 6 6 4 4 6 5 Madison CHOCK & Greg ZUERLEIN
18.75 19.00 15.25 17.25 17.75 17.50 18.50 16.25 17.00

6 6 7 4 4 5 6 5 7 Alisa AGAFONOVA & Dmitri DUN
16.50 16.25 14.25 18.25 18.50 16.75 16.25 17.00 15.50

8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 Ekaterina RIAZANOVA & John GUERREIRO
15.50 15.25 14.00 16.25 16.00 15.75 15.00 15.25 13.25

7 6 6 7 7 7 7 7 6 Isabella PAJARDI & Stefano CARUSO
15.75 16.25 15.00 16.75 16.75 16.25 16.00 16.00 16.25

(This would look a lot nicer if tabs worked!)

 

[Mathman]

As for the controversy, I don't see anything suspicious in the marks other that the usual obvious national bias for a few judges and a few skaters. Block judging does not particularly obvious in these numbers (IMO).

I agree that national bias is more obvious in these numbers than anything else. That does not make it smell any better, however.

It is not "bias" in the sense that the judge from Finland might be charmed by a skater who's performance calls to mind some pleasing aspect of Norse culture. It's flat out, here comes the skater that I am here to push, I'll give him twice as high GOEs as I know he deserves.

(I guess I am just naive.)

 

[gsrossano]

I did not mean to imply national bias is OK. It's just that it is usually there, so I am no longer much surprised when I see it. With national bias my reaction now is "like, so what else is new, you didn't notice that before?"

Also the Canadian judges tend to be among the most obvious about it time after time. No surprise there either. In this competition it looks like only the UKR judge played nice. Everybody else pushed up their own skaters and pushed down the opposition. I have a lovely table that shows this, but I can't find any good way to post a table here that doesn't look like pooh.