- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
ok ok ok. I'm not going to get worked up over this.
Collusion Conspiracies?
- Thread starter Joesitz (RIP)
- Start date
Slovenia is the most Northwestern part of what used to be Yugoslavia, bordering eastern Italy. Back in the WW2 era, the northern part of Slovenia was known as "Trieste". In 1947, half of the Trieste region was given to Italy, and the other half, to Yugoslavia.
It is SLOVAKIA that is in mid central Europe. Slovakia lies between Hungary to the south and Poland to the North.
Slovenia and Croatia are mainly Roman Catholic, and use the Latin alphabet. Serbia is mainly Protestant, and uses the Cyrillic alphabet. Bosnia and Herzegovina are mainly Islamic and use both cyrillic and arabic. I think it is a fallacy to say that these countries have common cultural traditions.
It is SLOVAKIA that is in mid central Europe. Slovakia lies between Hungary to the south and Poland to the North.
Slovenia and Croatia are mainly Roman Catholic, and use the Latin alphabet. Serbia is mainly Protestant, and uses the Cyrillic alphabet. Bosnia and Herzegovina are mainly Islamic and use both cyrillic and arabic. I think it is a fallacy to say that these countries have common cultural traditions.
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- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
A geography lesson, why not. Are they not slavs?
As Polish, Czech, Slovaks, Russians, Bulgarians
But then English, German, Dutch and Swedish belong to the same family too = Germanic family
So...The Poles and the Russians are both Slavs, and they are hardly friendly...Ukraine is currently divided between Pro Russians, since there are lot of ethnic Russians, and those who aren't friendly towards Russia at all.
As for some of the ethnic Slavs being well Islamic, some of it has to do with certain issues in teh Ottoman empire. Such as the empire tended to take children from Christian famlies and raise them as Muslims/for their army..Others converted to Islam for material reasons.
Just because there may be a way back a distant Slavic connection doesn't mean everyone's friends.. And a lot of the smaller countries, have some bad blood with Russia, who well throughout it's history tended to be well imperial.
:agree:
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- Jul 11, 2003
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- Jul 11, 2003
It's got nothing to do with politics or being enemies. It is their upbringing and schooling that make them closer in tiesl
and I think that they think in terms of the arts the same way regardless of religion and location.
Were the Angles, the Goths, the Visgoths, the Franks, the Norse, the Huns, the Flemish, all Teutonic? Certainly not the Celts?
No matter, I think I need a course in Anthropology.
Joe
Is there that much difference between how Europeans view art as a whole? Cold war issues aside.. Your making some pretty broad strokes there. Yes, Russia has always had one foot in the West and one foot in the East. But Russia has been hugely influenced by the rest of European culture and vice a versa.
France and Russia for example, have very strong cultural ties believe it or not. For example, French use to be the language of choice amongst the Russian artistocracy and they have similar traditions in ballet/music. French philsophy for example was heavily influential in Russia too...There are a lot of historic ties between France and Russia.
Eastern Europe has had some vastly different experiences in their history. For example Poland was once divided into Germany, Austria-Hungary, and Russia. Parts of Eastern Europe were part of the Ottoman Empire, parts were part of Austria-Hungary, and other parts were in Russia.
Sure there are some common cultural ties, and well some common experiences during the Cold War. But I wouldn't assume that they are completely alike cultural. Besides, I would bet that most Continental Europeans if given a choice between let's say Sale and Peltier and B/S, they might go with B/S. But I could be totally wrong there.
Still given the fact that the bad blood between let's say Poland and Russian, I wouldn't say they have close ties, or that they think a like.
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Let me think... All were with the exception of the Huns (Asians???) and Celts. Irish goes in the Celtic family. The others in the Teutonic/Germanic family
No matter, I think I need a course in Anthropology.
Well, have you ever watched TV show called "Eurovision Song Contest". The Best example of cultural and political bias. Every year those supposedly post-Yugoslavia countries all vote for each other, just as post-Soviet countries vote for each other.
Well some of that is because a lot of times the songs are in languages the people understand. Not so much because they miss each other.
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- Jul 28, 2003
Ah, I love where this thread has taken us!
However, I have one example as to where no kind of geographical, or for that matter cultural distribution would have fixed a major judging injustice - Chait & Sakhnovsky getting that World bronze medal. Now, who would have ever thought of Russia and Israel being in cahoots?! The idea is laughable! Of course, if we really look closely, we do see the president of Israeli federation being Mr. Boris Chait, originally from the same city as Piseev's wife - but that's a different story altogether.
If we look back at figure skating history, we see that things shift from cultural to political and back all the time. For example, clearly East Germany's closest cultural ties were to West Germany (duh!); however, it is equally clear that its FS voting was closely coordinated with the Soviet Union. Clearly, those examples can go on, and on, and on...
However, I have one example as to where no kind of geographical, or for that matter cultural distribution would have fixed a major judging injustice - Chait & Sakhnovsky getting that World bronze medal. Now, who would have ever thought of Russia and Israel being in cahoots?! The idea is laughable! Of course, if we really look closely, we do see the president of Israeli federation being Mr. Boris Chait, originally from the same city as Piseev's wife - but that's a different story altogether.
If we look back at figure skating history, we see that things shift from cultural to political and back all the time. For example, clearly East Germany's closest cultural ties were to West Germany (duh!); however, it is equally clear that its FS voting was closely coordinated with the Soviet Union. Clearly, those examples can go on, and on, and on...
Actually, Slovenia is very different. It is extremely integrated into Europe; there are places where you can hardly tell that it was a Warsaw Pact country just a short while ago. Croatia is becoming more Europeanised fast as well. Now, a country like Montengro - that's a different story. I spent only a day there, and while its beauty its stunning, I don't think I want to go back there for another decade or so...
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Well, substitute the language they sing in with skating style and you got the same in FS.
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- Jul 28, 2003
Oh, I'm not saying that it's hard to understand. It's just that Russia and Israel rarely share political interests, and while Russian culture has certainly seeped into Israel's through the throngs of immigrants, it's still a stretch to claim cultural alliance between the two. Also, there are a few non-Russian representing Israel (not even counting the American girls skating for the star-of-David).
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- Jul 26, 2003
I think the point is that Russia has loaned judges to former SSR's, Ukraine, and Israel, and the premise is that they vote for their "boss" who got them the gig in the first place, Piseev and his wife. Were a judge from Eastern Europe to have been an ethnic Russian -- like Baryshnikov, who was raised in Latvia -- that would also explain some loyalty.
Most of the judges without a common ethnic background have been working together for years and years. They have their likes, dislikes, cliques, incentives, and agendas. Add in that almost none of the former Eastern European countries except Czech Republic for the Men (Verner) have any skaters with skin in the game, and there's nothing to lose by going with personal ties. Lavoie reported (officially) that LaGogne told him (and a Swiss judge or official) the fall before the Olympics that she had already promised to vote for B&S because Sanaia was her friend, but she was torn, because he was "so nice."
That's also true for Western Europe as well, where the vast majority of Federations have no contenders or outside shots.
Most of the judges without a common ethnic background have been working together for years and years. They have their likes, dislikes, cliques, incentives, and agendas. Add in that almost none of the former Eastern European countries except Czech Republic for the Men (Verner) have any skaters with skin in the game, and there's nothing to lose by going with personal ties. Lavoie reported (officially) that LaGogne told him (and a Swiss judge or official) the fall before the Olympics that she had already promised to vote for B&S because Sanaia was her friend, but she was torn, because he was "so nice."
That's also true for Western Europe as well, where the vast majority of Federations have no contenders or outside shots.
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- Jul 11, 2003
And the western europe federations do not have as many eastern europe judges.
If we say that that is the fault of the western federations, then we must accept that the eastern federations will pressure for their respective winner. I would conclude that there would not be any true result of winners.
Why is it so important that a country must be the winner moreso than the skater?.
Joe
I don't know... I think there are issues, but I think at the end of the day, most of the skaters who deserve to win, win. With the new system it's hard to work together, and also I think the fact is that if the skater you want to win doesn't deliver, he/she doesn't deliver.
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