Long program start order

[moonvine]

When did this change to skating in reverse order of standing instead of drawing within groups?

What do y’all think of this?

I hate change so I doubt I’m a good representative- please keep your hands off my cheese.

I can see where they want to make it more dramatic, but it seems too often all the skaters stay in the same positions in which they started.

 

[Minz]

I believe this is new for the 2021/22 season. It was one of the few things they actually discussed at the ISU Congress.

It started at the 2021 World Championships so that people wouldn’t be congregating in one place for a draw.

The official reason that it stayed was to make it easier for TV Networks/casual viewers. (plus there is no need for a draw anymore)

 

[Jontor]

I salute this as it has always been the most logical thing to do. It is better to know that the next skater always has an advantage from the short. Casual fans get confused otherwise.

I don't know if this change is here to stay. It was introduced because of covid and it means you can skip the drawing procedures.

 

[Minz]

I salute this as it has always been the most logical thing to do. It is better to know that the next skater always has an advantage from the short. Casual fans get confused otherwise.

I don't know if this change is here to stay. It was introduced because of covid and it means you can skip the drawing procedures.

I think it might be permanent but my guess is that it was only considered urgent (not moved to next years congress) because of covid.

 

[mrrice]

This is a change that I am happy to see. The winner of the SP should be able to skate last. Skating in Reverse order makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Jontor]

What they SHOULD change though is the order of the short program which is now based on the WS list.

It is bonkers that a skater like Sinitsyna (sb 215.58) gets to start before Andrews (sb 181.18) in Skate America because of this.

And as the judges are treating PCS just like they did under the 6.0 system, it is a big disadvantage to skate early.

Instead they should use the Season Best list and update that list as the season progresses.

 

[moonvine]

And as the judges are treating PCS just like they did under the 6.0 system, it is a big disadvantage to skate early.

This is a problem that needs to be fixed regardless of what order they skate in.

 

[Jontor]

This is a problem that needs to be fixed regardless of what order they skate in.

Unfortunately, I don't think this will be fixed as long there are judges that grew up with the 6.0 system. We have to wait until they are gone before we might see fair PCS judging.

 

[randomfan]

The official reason that it stayed was to make it easier for TV Networks/casual viewers. (plus there is no need for a draw anymore)

This reminds me of how in the 2016 Grand Prix, for the Short Program, they had each skater draw their own numbers starting from whoever had the highest World Standing, which essentially randomized the order. This resulted in interesting scenarios like reigning World Champion Evgenia skating second out of twelve at IDF, or the Shibutanis as WSMs skating first in both their events.

I understand that they immediately ditched this the following season due to the same reasons you pointed out here (networks and casual viewers), but it was certainly entertaining and unpredictable.

 

[el henry]

Unfortunately, I don't think this will be fixed as long there are judges that grew up with the 6.0 system. We have to wait until they are gone before we might see fair PCS judging.

But the problem with PCS isn't just judges using it to "even out" scores. It is the "quad PCS" bonus. The "coach PCS" bonus. All sorts of PCS bonuses. 6.0 will be long gone from memory and the bonuses will remain.

I would love truly random orders in both programs, but television will always have the final say.

 

[Jontor]

But the problem with PCS isn't just judges using it to "even out" scores. It is the "quad PCS" bonus. The "coach PCS" bonus. All sorts of PCS bonuses. 6.0 will be long gone from memory and the bonuses will remain.

I would love truly random orders in both programs, but television will always have the final say.

Those "bonuses" you are talking about is debatable, but if they exist it is purely because of the mind-set of the judges and their 6.0 thinking. They simply judge the first skater and use it as a benchmark. And then look at the overall package in all other skaters and compare them to each other. When a skater has quads and other tech that is impressive, the judges uses the PCS to award that. The breakdown in SS, IN, CO etc be damned. The judges can't be bothered. They just use the PCS to fine tune their placings. Simple, but not the way PCS was intended.
This also means that the PCS is harsh for the first skaters (you need room for skaters to come) and goes up for the skaters in the last group whether they perform good or not, just like in the 6.0 era.

Why on earth would you prefer a random order? That goes against all logic in sports. It would be like watching the 100m finale before the semi-finals.

Sorry for the , PCS talk. This was not what this thread was about.

 

[alexocfp]

Wait, people want to change quite possibly the only half decent rule change the ISU has come up with in the last quarter century? People don‘t like that the skaters should get an advantage for nailing the SP?

The rule change may be hard to change anyway; the members misplaced their beepers so it will be hard to set up a conference for a while. Think the betamax machine is broken too.

Just take a look at Russian Nationals last year. Daria (get well soon) had to follow all that. It was definitely anti climactic.

 

[Jontor]

Just take a look at Russian Nationals last year. Daria (get well soon) had to follow all that. It was definitely anti climactic.

Yes, good example!

Daria, who was 3rd after the short skated last. But Kamila and Anna, who was in front of her and skated their free before her was in a league of their own and Daria, with a wonderful skate, ended up 30 points behind the winner.

 

[moonvine]

Just take a look at Russian Nationals last year. Daria (get well soon) had to follow all that. It was definitely anti climactic.

Didn't watch it so I don't know.

 

[Jontor]

Didn't watch it so I don't know.

You have it here with Ted Barton commentating.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Kamila 2nd after the short
Anna 1st after the short
Daria 3rd after the short
Daria was wonderful, but she really shouldn't have skated after the others. It was very anti climactic.

 

[moonvine]

You have it here with Ted Barton commentating.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Kamila 2nd after the short
Anna 1st after the short
Daria 3rd after the short
Daria was wonderful, but she really shouldn't have skated after the others. It was very anti climactic.

Thank you! Always good to hear Ted Barton commentating.

 

[el henry]

Those "bonuses" you are talking about is debatable, but if they exist it is purely because of the mind-set of the judges and their 6.0 thinking. They simply judge the first skater and use it as a benchmark. And then look at the overall package in all other skaters and compare them to each other. When a skater has quads and other tech that is impressive, the judges uses the PCS to award that. The breakdown in SS, IN, CO etc be damned. The judges can't be bothered. They just use the PCS to fine tune their placings. Simple, but not the way PCS was intended.
This also means that the PCS is harsh for the first skaters (you need room for skaters to come) and goes up for the skaters in the last group whether they perform good or not, just like in the 6.0 era.

Why on earth would you prefer a random order? That goes against all logic in sports. It would be like watching the 100m finale before the semi-finals.

Sorry for the , PCS talk. This was not what this thread was about.

You are right, we will stick to the subject.

I would prefer a random start order because that gives me a true assessment of the skaters. Seeing a skater who is lower in ranking next to a more accomplished one to me is always a revelation, both for the less accomplished one and the more accomplished one.

Since figure skating is not and never will be comparing times like the heats of races, I’m not sure that analogy works for me. I will admit for the “finals”, the FP of the Olympics or of Worlds, flights in reverse SP score order makes sense. However I have heard more than one skater say that skating last is not preferable, so the best SP skater might not want to go in strict reverse order.

 

[moonvine]

You are right, we will stick to the subject.

I would prefer a random start order because that gives me a true assessment of the skaters. Seeing a skater who is lower in ranking next to a more accomplished one to me is always a revelation, both for the less accomplished one and the more accomplished one.

Since figure skating is not and never will be comparing times like the heats of races, I’m not sure that analogy works for me. I will admit for the “finals”, the FP of the Olympics or of Worlds, flights in reverse SP score order makes sense. However I have heard more than one skater say that skating last is not preferable, so the best SP skater might not want to go in strict reverse order.

I would think there would be an advantage to skating on fresh ice.

 

[GoneWithTheWind]

Wait, people want to change quite possibly the only half decent rule change the ISU has come up with in the last quarter century? People don‘t like that the skaters should get an advantage for nailing the SP?

I don't mind the reverse order rule in singles and pairs. However, in ice dance, where the standings already change far less frequently between RD and FD and where there is often perceived to be a strict hierarchy of teams compared to the other disciplines, I think using the reverse order further encourages judges to not want to upset the ranking unless a dance team makes a really visible mistake.

 

[moonvine]

I don't mind the reverse order rule in singles and pairs. However, in ice dance, where the standings already change far less frequently between RD and FD and where there is often perceived to be a strict hierarchy of teams compared to the other disciplines, I think using the reverse order further encourages judges to not want to upset the ranking unless a dance team makes a really visible mistake.

It’s SO BORING in ice dance. They NEVER swap places.