2021-22 Russian Women's Figure Skating

[Dawn825]

I dont disagree. It is impossible to use IJS as it stands in real time accurately. Impossible. I'm just saying, with the benefit of all the time and slow-motion replays in the world, it is possible to apply IJS rules as they are written and get a different result.

 

[wakuwaku]

This doesn’t really have anything to do with the full blade assist though, because when you see skaters like Anna with full blade assist

All that incessant narration about Anna's "full blade assist" is getting really old and I surprised how people are still not tired from it. In my experience things which are required to be repeated this long - usually are not true and more likelty to be propaganda tool for support certain ideology against or pro-something. And as any propaganda - proofs are not needed - in fact they are dangerous. All that is needed is faith.
Let's see what can be noted in real world instead of labels world. Here is slo-mo close up gif of Anna's triple lutz from her last free:

here is link address if image is not loaded https://d.radikal.ru/d02/2111/b2/67ae8c6ee423.gif

Albeit the blade barely touches the ice for fraction of second - it can be seen very clearly that there is no weight on the blade. All skater's weight during whole prerotation/takeoff process is on the toe. As it should be on toe jumps.
Other very clear sign of toe jump is fountain of ice crumbles during picking caused by strong impact of toe against ice. Why people are constantly claiming that Anna tried to use edge for her 4Lz and that was the reason she fell is beyond me. Edge jumps are usually having snow dust at takeoff instead of ice crumbles - exactly because there is weight on blade.
I wouldn't even post it if people with that narration changed direction of their attacks on Maiia Khromykh (who really have issues with her takeoff technique) or changed their derogatory label to "half-blade assist" atleast. With that it would be harder to argue. But as it is now - it's just obvious anti-Anna personal attacks and I really tired of them and just can't understand the reason except obvious envy? After all there are lot of quite successful man skaters wirh prerotated quads and huge scores (Grassl, Uno etc.) noone cares about - if we compare negative attention to them with the negative attention to Anna.

 

[wakuwaku]

Episode 217: Beijing 2022 Figure Skating Preview with Analyst Jackie Wong

On this week's episode of Keep the Flame Alive, the podcast for fans of the Olympics and Paralympics, we're strapping on our figure skates and chatting with Rocker Skating's Jackie Wong to suss out who will be on the podium for all events in the figure skating competition at the Beijing 2022...

flamealivepod.com

Preview and prognosis for OG. Of course, main competitors with Valieva and Trusova will be Kihira, Liu and Tennell. Not a word about Anna or Liza - of course, how they can compete with Liu and Tennell, right?
And strawberry on the cake:

[00:13:27] Alison: So speaking of Alina Zagitova, who is not coming back, which of the next 15 year old Russian jumping machines will be on the podium? Since we have a choice of like 600.

[00:13:38] Jackie: Are we on to podium predictions already?

[00:13:41] Alison: You know, can anybody beat any of these Russian girls? They’re not even women. I mean they’re children.

[00:13:47] Jackie: I mean, you could say that about Tara Lipinski. Right?

[00:13:50] Alison: I have a big, I have a big thing about these girls being too young, so I am not discriminating against the Russians.

Absolutely nonbiased and nontoxic interviewer there who probably still lives in 2018 )

 

[skylark]

I dont disagree. It is impossible to use IJS as it stands in real time accurately. Impossible. I'm just saying, with the benefit of all the time and slow-motion replays in the world, it is possible to apply IJS rules as they are written and get a different result.

This was exactly Sonia Bianchetti predicted before IJS was implemented. That in real time, it was impossible. Also, that the judges would be splitting their attention (on an instantaneous level) during the actual performance, and thus it would not be possible to fully take in the artistic value and emotional resonance.

So it remains to us crazy-for-figure-skating fans to fully experience the emotional connections with the skaters -- which has always been a vital part of the sport.

I can't link at the moment, but it's easy to find on youtube. TSL posted the interviews by James Pellarito and David Barbra.


ETA: Bianchetti wrote an internet article fairly recently praising the current Russian women, so this isn't a tirade against them ... and btw I also love several of the Russian women, as I've posted many times.

 

[el henry]

Episode 217: Beijing 2022 Figure Skating Preview with Analyst Jackie Wong

On this week's episode of Keep the Flame Alive, the podcast for fans of the Olympics and Paralympics, we're strapping on our figure skates and chatting with Rocker Skating's Jackie Wong to suss out who will be on the podium for all events in the figure skating competition at the Beijing 2022...

flamealivepod.com

Preview and prognosis for OG. Of course, main competitors with Valieva and Trusova will be Kihira, Liu and Tennell. Not a word about Anna or Liza - of course, how they can compete with Liu and Tennell, right?
And strawberry on the cake:

Absolutely nonbiased and nontoxic interviewer there who probably still lives in 2018 )

I agree, since she applies the same standards to everyone, she absolutely is not biased. That would be the definition of non-biased.

Because I know no one here would be so silly as to make up reasons for someone based on their own prejudiced assumptions and analyses, rather than just taking at face value what someone says.

or to accuse someone of living in the past simply because they disagree with you. Who would make such an illogical argument?

 

[flanker]

[00:13:27] Alison: So speaking of Alina Zagitova, who is not coming back, which of the next 15 year old Russian jumping machines will be on the podium? Since we have a choice of like 600.

[00:13:38] Jackie: Are we on to podium predictions already?

[00:13:41] Alison: You know, can anybody beat any of these Russian girls? They’re not even women. I mean they’re children.

[00:13:47] Jackie: I mean, you could say that about Tara Lipinski. Right?

[00:13:50] Alison: I have a big, I have a big thing about these girls being too young, so I am not discriminating against the Russians.

The funny thing is that e.g. Alysa, who is supposed to be an olympian, is younger than Anna or Sasha, but hey, Anna and Sasha are children, right, and this Alison is "not discriminating against the Russians"

 

[vorravorra]

I agree, since she applies the same standards to everyone, she absolutely is not biased. That would be the definition of non-biased.

Because I know no one here would be so silly as to make up reasons for someone based on their own prejudiced assumptions and analyses, rather than just taking at face value what someone says.

or to accuse someone of living in the past simply because they disagree with you. Who would make such an illogical argument?

Erm, who are those 600 15-year-old children who are lining up to take the podium? That's the definition of a strawman.

 

[flanker]

Nevertheless, Ted is inviting us to the russian nationals:

 

[el henry]

Erm, who are those 600 15-year-old children who are lining up to take the podium? That's the definition of a strawman.

It may be a strawperson or exaggerating for effect (quite common in English, although I personally do not prefer it), but that does not make it *biased*.

one can argue with a premise one does not agree with, for sure. The person may in fact be wrong. But that doesn’t make the person biased.

that would be my only point.

 

[flanker]

It may be a strawperson or exaggerating for effect (quite common in English, although I personally do not prefer it), but that does not make it *biased*.

one can argue with a premise one does not agree with, for sure. The person may in fact be wrong. But that doesn’t make the person biased.

that would be my only point.

Can't say whether she is biased or not but she cleqarly doesn't do her job right. First, she is speaking about real people as nubers when she brings the topic. It's not an anonymous mass of interchangeable shapeless shadows and it's up to her to prepare herself for the topic. Maybe she just "doesn't follow the ladies", but again, that's a question of professionalism, that is not present, when she wants to mhave a talk about that.

And then there is the question of young age skaters, "children", which is not the matter of Russia only but she introduces it as if it would be. BTW, for instance during the time of the olympics, Anna and Sasha, two potential olypians, will be older than Karen Chen was when she won US nationals and took part at worlds for the first time. I wonder whether she was talked about as a child that time.

 

[vorravorra]

It may be a strawperson or exaggerating for effect (quite common in English, although I personally do not prefer it), but that does not make it *biased*.

one can argue with a premise one does not agree with, for sure. The person may in fact be wrong. But that doesn’t make the person biased.

that would be my only point.

There is a grand total of two 15-year-olds vying for Olympic spots, one of whom is unlikely to make it. The rest would be eligible even after the proposed age raise. This in no way fits the image Alison is trying to create. You could argue for an age raise without conjuring up an imaginary crowd of 15 year old jumping beans.

 

[el henry]

There is a grand total of two 15-year-olds vying for Olympic spots, one of whom is unlikely to make it. The rest would be eligible even after the proposed age raise. This in no way fits the image Alison is trying to create. You could argue for an age raise without conjuring up an imaginary crowd of 15 year old jumping beans.

Yes, you could, and anyone who feels that way should. It would make the person making the original point wrong. But it doesn’t make the person making the point *biased*.

 

[el henry]

Can't say whether she is biased or not but she cleqarly doesn't do her job right. First, she is speaking about real people as nubers when she brings the topic. It's not an anonymous mass of interchangeable shapeless shadows and it's up to her to prepare herself for the topic. Maybe she just "doesn't follow the ladies", but again, that's a question of professionalism, that is not present, when she wants to mhave a talk about that.

And then there is the question of young age skaters, "children", which is not the matter of Russia only but she introduces it as if it would be. BTW, for instance during the time of the olympics, Anna and Sasha, two potential olypians, will be older than Karen Chen was when she won US nationals and took part at worlds for the first time. I wonder whether she was talked about as a child that time.

And that‘s exactly the point. The person making the comment may be right or may be wrong, and anyone who thinks they are wrong can use examples to show where they think they are wrong.

Being wrong is not the same as being biased.

 

[vorravorra]

And that‘s exactly the point. The person making the comment may be right or may be wrong, and anyone who thinks they are wrong can use examples to show where they think they are wrong.

Being wrong is not the same as being biased.

It depends on who the bias is against, she does appear to be biased against 15-year-old jumping machines But the way she expresses it makes her sound like she's not aware of the actual situation, which means her point is harder to take seriously. I mean, you could look at juniors for justification of an age raise of you are after jumping beans, or you could argue that even 17 is too young since Zhenya has shown it's possible to last (almost) three seasons till puberty hits you full force, but there is just no legion of 15-year-olds about to podium at these Olympics.

 

[sclloyd]

All that incessant narration about Anna's "full blade assist" is getting really old and I surprised how people are still not tired from it. In my experience things which are required to be repeated this long - usually are not true and more likelty to be propaganda tool for support certain ideology against or pro-something. And as any propaganda - proves are not needed - in fact they are dangerous. All that is needed is faith.
Let's see what can be noted in real world instead of labels world. Here is slo-mo close up gif of Anna's triple lutz from her last free:

here is link address if image is not loaded https://d.radikal.ru/d02/2111/b2/67ae8c6ee423.gif

Albeit the blade barely touches the ice for fraction of second - it can be seen very clearly that there is no weight on the blade. All skater's weight during whole prerotation/takeoff process is on the toe. As it should be on toe jumps.
Other very clear sign of toe jump is fountain of ice crumbles during picking caused by strong impact of toe against ice. Why people are constantly claiming that Anna tried to use edge for her 4Lz and that was the reason she fell is beyond me. Edge jumps are usually having snow dust at takeoff instead of ice crumbles - exactly because there is weight on blade.
I wouldn't even post it if people with that narration changed direction of their attacks on Maiia Khromykh (who really have issues with her takeoff technique) or changed their derogatory label to "half-blade assist" atleast. With that it would be harder to argue. But as it is now - it's just obvious anti-Anna personal attacks and I really tired of them and just can't understand the reason except obvious envy? After all there are lot of quite successful man skaters wirh prerotated quads and huge scores (Grassl, Uno etc.) noone cares about - if we compare negative attention to them with the negative attention to Anna.

I’m referring to the specific lutzes where Anna does have full blade assist, usually her quads, as a way to make a point about how the rule referring to prerotation has nothing to do with the weight of her takeoff and therefore jump technique with regards to ISU rules. I literally just said exactly what you just did, including the bit about the weight shift. I have ZERO problems with Anna, lmao. If you want to argue with someone about her technique, pick someone else, I literally don’t care.

 

[wakuwaku]

I’m referring to the specific lutzes where Anna does have full blade assist, usually her quads

But she doesn't. Her 4Lz takeoff is the same as her 3Lz takeoff.

I literally just said exactly what you just did, including the bit about the weight shift.

I didn't label her takeoff as "full blade assist" because there isn't full blade assisting her in the first place. You did. So it's not exactly what I said - it's actually opposite. If you want to see example of full blade assist - see salchov's takeoffs. Anything different from that can't be called "full blade assist" and people who still uses such labels despite clear differences probably are far from being sincere.

 

[sclloyd]

But she doesn't. Her 4Lz takeoff is the same as her 3Lz takeoff.

I didn't label her takeoff as "full blade assist" because there isn't full blade assisting her in the first place. You did. So it's not exactly what I said - it's actually opposite. If you want to see example of full blade assist - see salchov's takeoffs. Anything different from that can't be called "full blade assist" and people who still uses such labels despite clear differences probably are far from being sincere.

Her full blade hits the ice on a number of jumps, including at cup of China. I said the same thing you did because I said it doesn’t affect the jump prerotation since she isn’t using the edge to take off, she’s still using the pick. What looks like is happening is she puts the full weight on the blade for half a moment and then it lifts up again before she takes off, so she gets a bit of weight on the blade instead of the pick before returning the weight back to the ball of the foot for take off. You can go find stills if you want of her blade fully on the ice. But I’m not going to discuss this anymore. The CIA thought the best way to derail convos is to do silly things like nitpick over precise definitions and I’m not interested in semantics when I already said her issue is irrelevant to scoring anyways.

 

[wakuwaku]

What looks like is happening is she puts the full weight on the blade for half a moment and then it lifts up again before she takes off, so she gets a bit of weight on the blade instead of the pick before returning the weight back to the ball of the foot for take off

That's the main point I disagree with you about. Whether the skater's blade touches the ice or not - you can't say how much weight there is from tv screen. There are some signs of blade under weight scratching the ice (snow dust) - but they are just not there in Anna's toe jumps. That, and it's just impossible to not lose lifting force from toe pick to be able to jump a quad - if you reallocate weight there and back during takeoff. From physical laws point of view there should be constant losing of weight during prerotation phase - when the weight of body is constantly moving from legs to torso and up - with arms moves as well. If you halting that process or reverting it back to make temporary footing on blade before lifting in air - it would mean she is able to jump a quad from stanstill without any prerotation or additional picking - just from staying on the blade facing forward. It would require so much strength that it's just impossible for a human.
Well, I see you are not willing to argue. I am not forcing you - do as you will.

 

[Fluture]

I think full-blade is a misleading term because it masks the real problem. Most skaters that jump with the technique commonly labeled as "full-blade" have, in fact, a pre-rotation problem. But even their blades leave the ice eventually. I don‘t think it‘s actually possible to put your entire blade on the ice during a toe jump - you‘d splat on your face.

There are those that come pretty close, prime example being Morisi Kvitelashvili for the men.

Watch his replay starting at 4:02 in slow-mo - his 4T and 4S look identical, even the commentator notes it. This is a full-blade, to the degree that I‘d say he literally jumps a 4S twice and shouldn’t get credit for the second one.

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Maiia, btw, not Anna, would come closest to this kind of technique on all of her toe jumps (which is, imo, the reason they’re somewhat unstable and she sometimes misses the pick and gets completely off-axis in the air). But even her blade isn‘t completely on the ice, so not full-blade.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lcrnkALZHws

Minute 5:00 shows it pretty well.

Conclusion from all of this? It‘s not the "full-blade take-off", that‘s the actual problem but the amount of pre-rotation.

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Look at this 3F in slow-motion at 7:55 and take in the amount she rotates while her pick is still in the ice. It’s true that, right now there’s no incentive in the current rule book to punish her for it. But my question: is it fair? There‘s a reason why, when you finish your rotation on the ice during landing, your jump gets called underrotated and BV deducted. So, why wouldn‘t it be the same during take-off?

I think that‘s actually what should be looked at, for Anna‘s jumps but for everyone else‘s as well. Does it make jumping 4Lz and 4F and whatnot easier? Then, yes, absolutely, create a rule that enforces loss of BV for excessive pre-rotation. At the moment, though, the judges don‘t care, so the coaches and skaters won‘t either.

 

[nussnacker]

Good to see people are keeping their Xmas traditions of discussing Anna’s jumps before Nationals