Why doesn't tech panel use slo-mo to distinguish "e"?

[gsrossano]

So, is it right to understand that the Tech Panel is given the slo-mo video but they view it only for the underrotations, and don't use it to distinguish the "e"?
They are determined to determine "e"s at normal speed, yes?

Yes, they have it. Every video replay has the cabability of being played back in slow speed or super slow speed. Yes, they only slow down the video for under-rotations. They determine the e's at normal speed. The data operator plays back the video however the TC asks for it.

And its reason...true, slo-mos are still in uncertainty.
But isn't it relatively better than just at normal speed?
Sure, stop-frames can become arbitrary on where to stop, but half-slow speed is doubtlessly more reliable than normal speed, IMO.
The fact that uncertainty may remain doesn't justfy neglecting what would be relatively better in certainty, isn't it?

A diversity of opinion is found for this question. IMO the quality of the video usually is not good enough to make a definitive decision on the close calls for change of edge, even in slow motion. There isn't a magnified picture of the foot, and sometimes the camera angle is wrong to clearly see what is happening. Hopefully they get all the obvious ones correct at normal speed. One trick I was taught a long time ago for identifying the change of edge on the Lutz is this, if the shoulders release and begin to rotate before the foot leaves the ice, there will be an edge change.

But that rarely happens, in reality judges simply follow the TP on "e"s; if the TP doesn't call the "e", they never seem to deduct on their own...
This is only my impression, I havn't time to verify all those protocols.
And the important point is, fans get such impressions.

My observation is that generally the judges do just follow the TP on the edge call. But being an opinionated SOB, when I am judging I do mark poor edges on the takeoff even if the TP doesn't call the wrong edge.

 

[hockeyfan228]

Many thanks, grossano.

I thought that Change of Edge deductions were supposed to be obvious to the eye, and it would make sense that they would be reviewed at normal speed, especially if the skater gets the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Justlooking]

Never does it show in any arena a closeup of a wrong edge takeoff. Sometimes on TV several days later, and only of certain skaters.


Joe

They showed flip and lutz take off during the Japanese National Sp.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Thank you Grossano for all the info of the workings of the Replay and SloMo.

I believe this is all available to the judges if and only if a judge requests it for himself. Correct?

and the bottom line is, it is not available officially for the audience at all.

Any showing of wrong edge or underrotation for the public is left to the private TV companies which are not under any obligation to televise them as a point of interest.

my point on harping on all of this is because of discussions about how difficult it is to understand the CoP scores for most fans. To see an error on the part of the skater clearly and not just like 'it seemed to me', would enhance the audience's appreciation of the judges' scores.

Joe

 

[Eddie Lee]

I believe SloMo is used for judges on their demand only. I also believe the ISU does not want the public to get too familiar with the inner workings of the scoring system. It's called Fear of Scandal. Otherwise the Tech Asst is the word of God.

At the US Open last September, I watched a match which I was calling Out from one of the balls landing. I was certain it was Out. But in Tennis they do show SloMo to the public and it showed that the ball was touching the line. Well, I was wrong and of course there was no scandal and no arguments between the fans.
Not only sensible but in line with well run organization. Downside is there is no fun watching McEnroe arguing with the Referee.

Joe

In another thread I proferred that SloMo should be used as it is in tennis and football...for the competitor's/coach's use in disputing a call. I do not think it should be used by the judges or tech specialists outside of that scenario. If an expert can't see it, its significance would be trivial. If angles obliterate a clear view, then (again like other sports) have judges scattered thoughout the arena. In my opinion, judges should not be huddled in the same area anyway. And they certainly should not be conferring with each other during the competition. They are individual judges, not a collaborative jury!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

In another thread I proferred that SloMo should be used as it is in tennis and football...for the competitor's/coach's use in disputing a call. I do not think it should be used by the judges or tech specialists outside of that scenario. If an expert can't see it, its significance would be trivial. If angles obliterate a clear view, then (again like other sports) have judges scattered thoughout the arena. In my opinion, judges should not be huddled in the same area anyway. And they certainly should not be conferring with each other during the competition. They are individual judges, not a collaborative jury!

Thank you for explaining what an audience is there for. True some see FS Championships as a show not unlike those Pagaents which also give out medals and trophys.

Joe

 

[sorcerer]

Thank you once again Gsrossano!
This I write for ISU.

The skaters sacrifice so much of their youth for the jumps, most of them asked of huge effort to fix their wrong edge from now on.

With all those efforts on the skaters' side, sometimes one single overlook, from lenience or not, on a flutz or a lip might cost the competing skater a medal, might even end up costing a country a slot to the Worlds.
Now,

...If angles obliterate a clear view, then (again like other sports) have judges scattered thoughout the arena.

Reading this Eddie's post I've come to think that plural videos from different angles, preferably arranged into simultaneously projected frames in a single window, should be reviewed by the Tech Panel, more so than slo-mos.
Because I imagine the three in TP can't help but staying together, unable to be scattered here and there.

IMO the aim of "e" calls should not be the encouraging of skaters to be tactical enough to slip into the benefit of doubt or to make take-offs from the direction the camera can't catch.
... I think it should be the encouragement of jumps correct from any angle.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Good suggestion, sorcerer. I've been suggesting for years that the judges be spread out in the arena, and I like very much your suggestion that plural videos should be projected into a single frame showing different angles of the same jump. If it happens, we can say good bye to all the bickerings about underrotated jumps and wrong edge take offs.

I don't think that would be difficult to do. They set up a whole high tech electronic system when they replaced the nine ladies holding score cards.

Joe

 

[merrybari]

I don't think that would be difficult to do. They set up a whole high tech electronic system when they replaced the nine ladies holding score cards.

Joe

Ain't that the truth! Thanks for the smile to start my day. :thumbsup:

 

[Eddie Lee]

Speaking of positioning cameras strategically to record edge take-offs and landings.

I recall a prominent, savvy coach rumored to actually choreograph her student's programs so that the student's flutz was performed in a certain area of the arena so that the obvious improper take-off edge could not be clearly seen by the judges. Take it from an experienced judge (not figureskating), that such a calculation is not as rare as one might expect. Competitions at the National/International tier are serious business. I might add that this coach's skater (referenced above) had her share of successes on the International circuit.

 

[gsrossano]

Speaking of positioning cameras strategically to record edge take-offs and landings.

I recall a prominent, savvy coach rumored to actually choreograph her student's programs so that the student's flutz was performed in a certain area of the arena so that the obvious improper take-off edge could not be clearly seen by the judges.

No doubt. Coaches have been doing this for years. Place the Lutz deep in the corner on the judges side.

Other tricks in pairs. Place the twist so the hands of the man cannot be seen if the catch is not at the waste. Also, on lifts move down the ice on the judges side of the arena so they have to look up -- makes the lift look bigger and faster.

 

[Mathman]

No doubt. Coaches have been doing this for years. Place the Lutz deep in the corner on the judges side.

The Lutz corner is my favorite place to sit at a competition. That first jump comes straight at you and it always looks amazing, flutz or not.