Kamila Valieva: Anti-doping Case and Follow-ups

[alexocfp]

There is literally nothing stopping Russia from using TUE.

The only thing they are victim of is their own bad behavior.

TUE is just a piece of paper. Most of them are gotten through nefarious ways anyway.

And obviously I don’t think doping is bad behavior. Lance Armstrong is a legend.

 

[doreen95]

I agree with most of this but, as much as I see Kamila as a victim, she has to be suspended
( Although it is her coaching team who should receive the harshest punishment- they are the responsible parties) because , if not, it will be seen as a evidence that minors can dope without consequences. If minors can't be punished for doping, they shouldn't be allowed to participate in important international sporting events. So, raise the age of participation in all sports to 18 or punish the minors. ( While recognizing that the adults around them are responsible)

My thoughts exactly.

 

[alexocfp]

Um what? alexocfp is openly campaigning for legalizing doping not a handful of posts above you....

...and who here is campaigning for a permanent ban for Kamila? No one that I have seen. She should get the ban that is in the rules..... the rules ROC agreed to. What that is will depend on the violation... which to my understanding is usually only a year.... sometimes less or more.

I like to think of it as making drug use safer for adult athletes that choose to go that route. I’m a humanitarian after all.

 

[Wafflecakes]

TUE is just a piece of paper. Most of them are gotten through nefarious ways anyway.

And obviously I don’t think doping is bad behavior. Lance Armstrong is a legend.

You can deconstruct anything by saying it is "just a piece of paper". Gold Medals are just "pieces of metal". Money is just "pieces of paper". Intelligence is just "electrical signals in the brain". Saying that does not make your argument stronger.

 

[Amei]

And finally, I do NOT place the blame on Kamilla for this situation, but I absolutely DO place the blame on the adults surrounding her, and for the life of me, I can't understand why some people can't see that. The big question is easy: Who gave her that medication? Why are we dancing around that?

Well until we get more information no one knows the answer to your question

There is literally nothing stopping Russia from using TUE.

Just because someone applies for the TUE doesn't mean they get it

 

[alexocfp]

You can deconstruct anything by saying it is "just a piece of paper". Gold Medals are just "pieces of metal". Money is just "pieces of paper". Intelligence is just "electrical signals in the brain". Saying that does not make your argument stronger.

You are correct in what you say.

The value comes from how much importance you place on them.

A comic book is just a piece of paper to me but a collectible to someone else.

 

[beachmouse]

Lol @ people in this thread coming out as openly pro doping and acting like in that world it would be the athletes choice.

In a world where doping in sports is made legal there will 100% be countries out there who see doping their athletes literally TO DEATH is an acceptable cost for achieving victory and reputation on the international stage. Do you really think the Chinese government would give their athletes the choice? What about North Korea?

Easy enough to make those athletes "disappear" after the Olympics so no one knows the long term effects.

Except they do not conveniently disappear forever when political situations change. Read the accounts of the DDR girls who were told by coaches and doctors they were getting 'vitamin shots'. So many of them have suffered lifelong health problems because of those lies and their stories are often heartbreaking.

 

[Wafflecakes]

I like to think of it as making drug use safer for adult athletes that choose to go that route. I’m a humanitarian after all.

All of that is irrelevant.

ROC and all members of the IOC agreed to not use prohibited drugs.... The athletes agree to this as well.

Even if I were to agree with your stance (I strongly don't) it doesn't change anything. Kamila, her team, and the ROC agreed to follow certain rules and allegedly they broke those rules, and so they must suffer the consequences laid out in said rules.

You can have a debate on whether doping should be allowed. Have at it. It literally changes nothing about the issue at hand.

 

[alexocfp]

All of that is irrelevant.

ROC and all members of the IOC agreed to not use prohibited drugs.... The athletes agree to this as well.

Even if I were to agree with your stance (I strongly don't) it doesn't change anything. Kamila, her team, and the ROC agreed to follow certain rules and allegedly they broke those rules, and so they must suffer the consequences laid out in said rules.

You can have a debate on whether doping should be allowed. Have at it. It literally changes nothing about the issue at hand.

Yes, she should suffer the consequences.

A strongly worded warning is in order.

 

[TontoK]

And obviously I don’t think doping is bad behavior. Lance Armstrong is a legend.

As a United States taxpayer who funded Armstrong's USPS Cycling Team, I cannot begin to tell you how wrong you are about Lance Armstrong.

I would almost certainly be banned from the forum if I shared my views about him. There are few sports figures on whom I expend energy to actively despise, but he's at the top of that list.

 

[Wafflecakes]

Yes, she should suffer the consequences.

A strongly worded warning is in order.

If that is the consequence laid out in the rules sure.

If the consequence in the rules is a ban from competition and forfeiture of titles... yes to that as well.

Once again. They agreed to a set of rules, and those rules should be followed.

 

[alexocfp]

Lol @ people in this thread coming out as openly pro doping and acting like in that world it would be the athletes choice.

In a world where doping in sports is made legal there will 100% be countries out there who see doping their athletes literally TO DEATH is an acceptable cost for achieving victory and reputation on the international stage. Do you really think the Chinese government would give their athletes the choice? What about North Korea?

Easy enough to make those athletes "disappear" after the Olympics so no one knows the long term effects.

So in this “no doping” world we live in, all athletes are treated wonderfully all over the world?

Making drugs legal will ultimately help more athletes than it will harm.

I mean this anti drug hysteria is amazing. Athletes missed the Olympics Athletics event because of marijuana. Ridiculous.

 

[moonvine]

I have heard it both ways, being under 16 it protects a person from any punishment and that it protects them only from severe punishment. Now what the question would be what is the definition of severe is it anything more than probation or is it a career killing suspension?

This does make me say that next season the age limit has to be raised to 16, if an athlete is deemed to young to be held accountable for potential doping violations then they should not be competing in the senior circuit.

Regarding the current situation: the athlete involved should be afforded the same process as any other athlete positive test. Whether that means an automatic disqualification or compete through the appeals process.

I’m super confused. So if an OGM diver, say, who is 13 and posts positive for banned substances they get to keep their gold medal because they are 13? But if they were 19 no?

 

[Wafflecakes]

So in this “no doping” world we live in, all athletes are treated wonderfully all over the world?

Making drugs legal will ultimately help more athletes than it will harm.

I mean this anti drug hysteria is amazing. Athletes missed the Olympics Athletics event because of marijuana. Ridiculous.

I agree that the Marijuana rule is stupid, and yes I want it changed.

The time to change a rule is NOT after you are caught breaking it.

Have the debate out in the open. Make your case and convince others....

.... don't agree to a set of rules then play the victim when you get caught breaking them.

 

[alexocfp]

As a United States taxpayer who funded Armstrong's USPS Cycling Team, I cannot begin to tell you how wrong you are about Lance Armstrong.

I would almost certainly be banned from the forum if I shared my views about him. There are few sports figures on whom I expend energy to actively despise, but he's at the top of that list.

Wait. You’ll be surprised to find that I think he is a horrible person. The legend refers to his on bike career.

To sue someone that accused you of doping while you are doping takes a hell of of a lot of balls. Haha

 

[Amei]

No one is pro doping. Kamila, even as an adult knowing what she took, wouldn't be banned for life for having a miniscule amount of the substance in her. A few months have passed now so you'd have to look at how much of an effect this would have today, since if you're going to boot someone from a competition there should be some unfair advantage. Arguably that unfair advantage could be that the quality of training improved as a result, but I don't think one failed test should result in someone getting banned permanently. Therefore, I think you do have to consider the effect (and duration of that effect) when determining how to move forward.

Do I think Valieva should get a permanent ban - no, but I don't see how, without a justifiable (TUE filed with the incorrect paperwork or contaminated test) reason, they can allow her to compete next week or at least they need to put a suspension pending appeals on the books with the stipulation to her and the Russian Fed that should she win a medal it might be stripped after the appeals process. She tested positive for a banned substance that generally always to my knowledge results in a suspension and/or loss of medals. They can't put too much 'gray area' in the rule book for taking banned substances; there's already credibility problems with these organizations as it is, gray area just allows for further erosion of trust that they don't do backroom deals.

 

[alexocfp]

I agree that the Marijuana rule is stupid, and yes I want it changed.

The time to change a rule is NOT after you are caught breaking it.

Have the debate out in the open. Make your case and convince others....

.... don't agree to a set of rules then play the victim when you get caught breaking it.

Well, to be fair, athletes and people in all walks of life agree to rules they are going to break. You give them no choice.

If the rule is agree to this or you don’t compete, what choice do you leave them?

 

[Amei]

I’m super confused. So if an OGM diver, say, who is 13 and posts positive for banned substances they get to keep their gold medal because they are 13? But if they were 19 no?

I'm confused as well - I just posted the 2 explanations/interpretations of some rule about under 16 people being 'protected' that has been said about this situation.

 

[anonymoose_au]

And i find quite offensive the purpose to diagnose people when you don't need to

Excuse me, I happen to have ADHD thank you, it is NOT a "fake" condition, my parents didn't cause it by failing to parent me and I would not have suddenly been able to concentrate if you tried me to chair and whacked me over the knuckles every time my attention wandered.

I take dexamphetamine, it allows me to concentrate like a "normal" person. It allows me to work to my full ability and not beyond it. Without it I'm extremely scattered and impulsive. I do not get "super-dooper" laser focus with my medication.

It has taken decades for ADHD to be taken seriously and not as some failure of the person with it or their parents. How about not taking us back to the 70s where a good spanking will sort your kid out.

 

[Wafflecakes]

I’m super confused. So if an OGM diver, say, who is 13 and posts positive for banned substances they get to keep their gold medal because they are 13? But if they were 19 no?

It seems like according to some it should be legal for minors, who have no choice in the matter and could be permanently maimed or crippled by PED's, to use illegal drugs to improve their performance with no consequence.

I feel the opposite. If anything the punishment for them (or more specifically their teams) should be MORE severe for the fact that they are putting a minor at risk.

Hell. Giving a minor a PED should be a permanent lifetime ban from all sports for their coach, assistants, and doctors. The athlete should get the standard ban for whatever the infraction is.