The role of fans in shaping skaters’ careers

[TallyT]

What does a student do when he gets asked about sea dogs but he has prepared to speak about fish? He says: "Sea dogs feed on fish." And, from then on, he keeps talking about fish...

Well, when everybody goes off topic, why can't I?

It's tough because the role of fans in any entertainment field is an increasingly complicated one (it is such a long time since Textual Poachers is credited with starting the whole field of study), but it is also true that as international fans come together online they really can make money talk, both for individual skaters and for the powers that be who control the careers of those skaters. These days, fans from all over the world can contribute to a skater's career, in monetary terms as well as following in person/streaming.

 

[Magill]

It's tough because the role of fans in any entertainment field is an increasingly complicated one (it is such a long time since Textual Poachers is credited with starting the whole field of study), but it is also true that as international fans come together online they really can make money talk, both for individual skaters and for the powers that be who control the careers of those skaters. These days, fans from all over the world can contribute to a skater's career, in monetary terms as well as following in person/streaming.

Not just that they can but they do which is making TPTB that bit less.... powerful, lol!

 

[skatingfan4ever]

I think it's interesting and a little sad that more of Yuzu's fans (the ones who hadn't already been watching figure skating) did not become fans of figure skating itself but remained fans of him and him only, such that they left competitive skating when he left it. I started with Michelle and Tara but fell in love with the sport itself and became a fan of many skaters thereafter. Maybe it was Dick and Peggy's commentary, or the fluff pieces US Networks used to do, or personal taste, or the music I heard. Next year I will have been a fan for 30 years. Figure skating gets extensive media coverage in Japan, so it's eye-opening to learn that JSF is struggling.

 

[TallyT]

I think it's interesting and a little sad that more of Yuzu's fans (the ones who hadn't already been watching figure skating) did not become fans of figure skating itself but remained fans of him and him only, such that they left competitive skating when he left it.

This is not a dig at you, but it is a bit much when a large portion of Really Really Serious Fans spent ages telling Yuzuru's fans good and bad to get out of their sport - that the other men were and deserved to be going to be bigger and better stars anyway and things would be so much better and more successful without us. Those who very well may have looked at other stars to follow... didn't need the aggro or the cost; I felt excoriated, resented and sneered at so dumped figure skating for a long time, can't quite remember why I decided to give some of the skaters a second look and inched my way back in (a bit older, no wiser, a lot more cynical) but I can't blame those who thought "stuff it, I have nicer places and people to spend time and money on."

Figure skating gets extensive media coverage in Japan, so it's eye-opening to learn that JSF is struggling.

Online articles don't pay the bills...

 

[Magill]

I think it's interesting and a little sad that more of Yuzu's fans (the ones who hadn't already been watching figure skating) did not become fans of figure skating itself but remained fans of him and him only, such that they left competitive skating when he left it. I started with Michelle and Tara but fell in love with the sport itself and became a fan of many skaters thereafter. Maybe it was Dick and Peggy's commentary, or the fluff pieces US Networks used to do, or personal taste, or the music I heard. Next year I will have been a fan for 30 years. Figure skating gets extensive media coverage in Japan, so it's eye-opening to learn that JSF is struggling.

To add to what TallyT said very rightly above.
Yuzuru and JSF were teamed without much mutual love and they parted without much goodbyes. If I know it here, surely people in Japan knew it too. Maybe if there was a different dynamics on the part of TPTB, the outcome could have been different, Yuzuru could have been kept involved somehow in competitive skating as the legend of the sport, invited to Worlds galas and such which would have helped to keep his fans in, too. This is how they do it in other sports and even in FS in other countries, don't they? Try to keep some sort of continuity. Personally, I am sad it never happened and probably never will. But the way it was, well, they thought the empire was theirs to rule but it turned out that the key to the treasury was in different hands.
Still… as one of the moguls of Japanese ice show market remarked in an interview not so long ago (and I’m quoting from memory), it had been obvious for a long time that Yuzuru going pro would shake the whole market because a big section of the audience was there mainly to see him, and anyone has only as much time and money they’re willing to spend on watching skating. So if for the same amount of money and time you can watch Yuzuru Hanyu skating for two hours in his own show, for 15 minutes in another’s show, or not at all in a competition, what will you choose? It is just a choice, you cannot watch everything.
And especially with Yuzuru fans made feel unwelcome in the skating community, and often used as a punching bag by fans of other skaters or "fans of the sport" for all their grievances, why on Earth would they keep supporting it with their money, their number and their purchase power?
A tough lesson in fandom realities, but a lesson nevertheless.

 

[skatingfan4ever]

Thank you @Magill and @TallyT for your thoughtful posts. I am glad that when I became a fan in 1996, the internet/social media did not exist. I developed my own perceptions about skating, pretty much by myself, with only TV coverage to guide me. I didn't join a skating message board, or really know they existed, until 2008. It was a revelation to me that I wasn't the only one who cared this much about skating. Even since I joined GS in 2012, the whole media landscape has changed a lot.

There are things that I am into for a short time and then move on, for my own valid reasons, so I completely understand that. But now I'm left to wonder: Do we need Yuzu-size fanbases to sustain the sport? Is that what we've come to? Do we have that much power? Speaking for myself, I don't feel that important as a fan.

I am sorry for the Yuzu fans who had negative experiences with other fans. That is awful. As I said before, it's complicated because fans are people, and people are complex.

 

[TallyT]

Do we need Yuzu-size fanbases to sustain the sport?

That's an impossible question to answer, I think but imo 'need' isn't really the point at issue, although if the sport was less niche there would be more big supportive fandoms for individual skaters (which would be a good thing for the skaters, yes) even though someone like Yuzuru would still stand well and truly out.

 

[Magill]

Thank you @Magill and @TallyT for your thoughtful posts. I am glad that when I became a fan in 1996, the internet/social media did not exist. I developed my own perceptions about skating, pretty much by myself, with only TV coverage to guide me. I didn't join a skating message board, or really know they existed, until 2008. It was a revelation to me that I wasn't the only one who cared this much about skating. Even since I joined GS in 2012, the whole media landscape has changed a lot.

There are things that I am into for a short time and then move on, for my own valid reasons, so I completely understand that. But now I'm left to wonder: Do we need Yuzu-size fanbases to sustain the sport? Is that what we've come to? Do we have that much power? Speaking for myself, I don't feel that important as a fan.

I am sorry for the Yuzu fans who had negative experiences with other fans. That is awful. As I said before, it's complicated because fans are people, and people are complex.

Thank you for this extension of empathy to someone outside of your own pack, so rare and so precious! I do really appreciate it, and I mean it! Makes me feel better heard!
It’s just that people rarely are just victims, or just perpetrators, especially if we talk about big groups, it’s just so mixed. Sometimes they get the beating, but sometimes they are those who are doing the beating themselves, and sometimes exactly because they'd been getting the beating earlier. Or the other way round.
Do we need big fandoms to sustain the sport? I don’t know. For me it is not a question if we need them, but if we are able to embrace them when we happen to have them. For whether we have them or not is beyond our control. Normally a huge fandom is seen as a blessing to the field as it brings so many opportunities which are just not there without the public’s interest. And my overall impression is that figure skating community of today never really had such a huge fandom like Yuzuru’s and had no idea how to embrace them. Of course, things were made more difficult because this huge fandom came suddenly for this new kid on the block, and not grew gradually for one of the established stars which would probably have been better accepted and caused less tensions. But here we are, these are things beyond anyone’s control. Gotta live with them,

 

[moonvine]

Minz above summed it up very succinctly, and that is also what I believe: for the most part, fan support is a good thing to have, and some skaters really appreciate it. Some are even quite vocal (and visual) about their appreciation - think all the skaters waving at the audience and showing them heart signs, while some, like Jimmy Ma, interact with fans during competitions and obviously enjoy it (where was it that he shouted 'love ya' at someone in the audience?).
One might argue that the skaters possibly have their friends and family members among the spectators, but that is not always the case - some (like Donovan) always get a lot of cheering even outside their home countries with few to no other team members attending the event. Some fans directly support their favorite skaters through gifting platforms, and there are skaters who openly say how much the gifting and the online chatting means to them. Skaters' personalities may differ, but I think the majority appreciate their fans.


I'd love to read the skaters' POV on this topic. Cultural and personal quirks/specifics aside, there will probably be enough 'skater pet peeves' to make a correct conduct list for fans. What to never post online, autograph/photo etiquette... I know I for one would love to read it!

Jimmy says if the fans give him 100% he will give us 200%

As far as etiquette, I know at US Nationals after they get done practicing and leave the ice is when to call them over for autographs, gifts, etc.
I asked someone at Texas Trophy but they are too small to have an etiquette. So I just walked up to him and asked. I even permitted a picture so now there’s a picture of an oompa loompa and Keegan.

 

[moonvine]

I do think though, that the word "fan" standing alone has by and large abandoned its position on the good-bad spectrum. If you want it to have the same coloring as "fanatic" you have to throw in some deliberate modifiers like hooligan, crazy, excessive, berserk, Philadelphia Eagles, etc.

Hey now…leave my Eagles out of this

 

[moonvine]

I'll tell you a secret Mathman! I'm old enough. I learnt Latin

Me too!!!

 

[Mathman]

Hey now…leave my Eagles out of this

I was trying to provoke @el henry, but el henry didn't take the bait.

 

[Wynter]

I think it's interesting and a little sad that more of Yuzu's fans (the ones who hadn't already been watching figure skating) did not become fans of figure skating itself but remained fans of him and him only, such that they left competitive skating when he left it. I started with Michelle and Tara but fell in love with the sport itself and became a fan of many skaters thereafter. Maybe it was Dick and Peggy's commentary, or the fluff pieces US Networks used to do, or personal taste, or the music I heard. Next year I will have been a fan for 30 years. Figure skating gets extensive media coverage in Japan, so it's eye-opening to learn that JSF is struggling.

I fit into this category, so I'll share my experience.

I tried. When I found Yuzu after the PyeongChang Olympics, I fell down a rabbit hole and, for a while, watched everything I could — Challengers, GPs, Nationals, anything.

Perhaps I got too involved in social media after discovering him and spent too much time reading and analyzing things, but I became disillusioned quickly. As someone who has watched other sports, I couldn’t accept many things that other FS fans consider “normal.” I went from watching all competitions, to only men’s singles, to only events with Yuzu, and finally to just Yuzu’s performances. I was relieved when he went pro and have so much fun in his current pro era.

I still like some of the currently competing skaters — just not enough to make me watch competitions anymore.

FYI, JSF is struggling because they stretched their funds to cover speed skating as well. When Yuzu was competing, the profits generated were enough to cover the expenses for both figure skating and speed skating. After he left, the income from figure skating decreased and was no longer sufficient to cover both.

 

[Anna K.]

Perhaps I got too involved in social media after discovering him and spent too much time reading and analyzing things, but I became disillusioned quickly. As someone who has watched other sports, I couldn’t accept many things that other FS fans consider “normal.”

What did you mean by the considered "normal", a specific behavior of fans or some specifics of the sport itself?

It sounds interesting to me because I also watched a range of other sports but I did not have major problems with figure skating in the sports aspect after IJS. This could be because we watched different sports though. What other sports did you watch?

 

[Wynter]

What did you mean by the considered "normal", a specific behavior of fans or some specifics of the sport itself?

It sounds interesting to me because I also watched a range of other sports but I did not have major problems with figure skating in the sports aspect after IJS. This could be because we watched different sports though. What other sports did you watch?

Badminton, F1, Volley.

Some small examples:

• It is widely accepted for skaters in the earlier groups (and from weaker federations) to receive lower PCS compared to those in the later groups.
• It is considered normal for skaters with higher technical content (read: more quads) to also receive higher PCS.
• PCS (which used to have five categories: Skating Skills, Transitions, Performance, Composition, and Interpretation). It’s very rare for a skater to be strong in all categories, but you wouldn’t know it from the scores.
• Ice dancers often have to compete for many years and wait for their “turns.”
• Skaters are not allowed to question their scores, etc.

And then there are the numerous cases of abuse involving athletes and coaches.

 

[Anna K.]

Badminton, F1, Volley.
[...]
And then there are the numerous cases of abuse involving athletes and coaches.

I wouldn't say that FS stands out when we compare its number of abuse cases with the numbers of abuses cases in other sport, entertainment, or professional environments.
Also, I don't think that we watched radically different sports, so...
Shall we take this straight to a thread which is specifically devoted to discussing PCS? Or, not. It seems that PCS has been discussed in almost any thread lately. So why not here?

When I started watching figure skating, I was blessed to have really good commentary that included the explanation of PCS that most commentators never explain. I guess that it helped me a lot and that's the major difference between your experience and mine.
So, regarding your examples...

• It is widely accepted for skaters in the earlier groups (and from weaker federations) to receive lower PCS compared to those in the later groups.

Skaters from earlier groups and weaker federations tend to receive lower PCS but it's not because it's "widely accepted". First, the federation: being a weaker federation means smaller human resource, fewer ice rinks, weaker inner competition and weaker international skaters as the end result. Weaker skaters accordingly receive lower TES and PCS
The "last warm-up group PCS" is a different issue; although I would not rate it as an issue but rather as a logical outcome of the existing PCS judging. Currently, the PCS is awarded based on the visual comparison of skaters. It is easy to compare skaters when they skate back-to-back in the same group; not that easy to compare with skaters who skated an hour ago. That's why skaters receive their PCS pretty much in the light of how other skaters do in their gruop. In the free skate last warp-up group, judges know for sure that they compare best with the best and they don't spare their GOE and PCS. In earlier groups, they sometimes do. A lesser known skater may get higher PCS in the last group if he/she is as good as the best; however, if he/she isn't, the judges may be particularly harsh on PCS because the comparison with the best makes it look worse.
I would would wish better tools for comparison and, the best would be objective points of reference for PCS. But this has been discussed in other topics more than once or twice.

• It is considered normal for skaters with higher technical content (read: more quads) to also receive higher PCS.

Do they? I mean, has Malinin ever received higher PCS than Kagiyama? I need more facts for this example.

• PCS (which used to have five categories: Skating Skills, Transitions, Performance, Composition, and Interpretation). It’s very rare for a skater to be strong in all categories, but you wouldn’t know it from the scores.

The very idea of PCS is to evaluate the program as a whole, not being splitted it in several different categories.
That's why they are called "components" and not "categories" or "fields". There are the supposed compounds of one end result that in theory can't be judged separately. That's why, when you look up the PCS requirements, you can see that they are subtly intertwined.
For example, for the Presentation component, the criterion “Expressiveness & projection” has the explanation: Through complete personal involvement in the program, the skater(s) express(es) and project(s) a mood, feeling, image, rhythm or style as inspired by the musical selection and by the specific style of the dance. Confident presentation of one’s body and energy to communicate a feeling. Ability to capture the viewer, to arouse emotions. Even the weakest emotionally invested skater would get 10 points according to this if not the section in bold that relates this criterion with body control (Composition component) and energy (Skating Skills component). So eventually, the one who expresses emotional investment via greater speed and more elaborated body movement will also get higher Presentation component.

• Ice dancers often have to compete for many years and wait for their “turns.”

Ice dance is a category in which more years of practice lead to better skills. This is normally a hard-to-beat advantage unless the younger team comes with a technical breakthrough in another area that outweighs the clean edges of the older team.

• Skaters are not allowed to question their scores, etc.

They are allowed and they do ask all kinds of questions regarding their scores. They ask the judge who represents their country and the judge then does the "splaining" (at least our judge does). It does not affect the historic result but it can provide the skater and the coach with the information regarding what they need to improve.
If something looks like a major injustice then there can be filled a major protest via the skating federation that addresses ISU or the national judge or the head of the national judging committee addresses the ISU judging committee. This also does not change the historic result but it may prevent similar major injustice in future.

There is certainly place for discussion regarding all examples that you mentioned but I hope that I clarified some popular misunderstandings here. Or, I did not

 

[Wynter]

I wouldn't say that FS stands out when we compare its number of abuse cases with the numbers of abuses cases in other sport, entertainment, or professional environments.

This is one of the examples I have in mind when I said “Skating fans normalize some things I cannot accept.”

Imagine reading news about abuses to young athletes day after day and think, “we have less cases compared to other sport, entertainment, or professional environment.” Should these things even be compared in the first place?

 

[Magill]

both posts

Thank you Wynter for your contribution, as always very honest and insightful!!!
I totally agree with all your points.

My experience and assessment were quite similar in many aspects to yours.

To the list of factors "normalized" by skating fandom and yet putting off for me I would add painfully striking lack of scoring transparency and any kind of prevention of conflict of interest. A wife of the chairman of one of two biggest federations serving as a judge on the Olympic panel ? No problem. Judges from national federations scoring representatives of their very federation and their direct competitors? No problem. An employee of a skating club sitting on the panel in a competition where skaters from this very club are competing? No problem.

Sorry to say, but where I live, elementary school level local competitions are required to show more transparency and COI management these days to be even allowed to have their results valid for inclusion in the school transcripts of participating kids, lol.
Lack of even understanding that there is something wrong here combined with palpable resistance to any objectification of the judging system is striking.
And, no, it is not about how many words can be said in defence of the status quo. It is not about who would "win" or "lose" this or that discussion. Here the question is about why the viewers leave the sport. So it should be about understanding their reasons and addressing them with real changes, and not about a defence of the status quo and proving them "wrong". It is exactly this very approach that makes the viewership keep shrinking.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Skaters from earlier groups and weaker federations tend to receive lower PCS but it's not because it's "widely accepted". First, the federation: being a weaker federation means smaller human resource, fewer ice rinks, weaker inner competition and weaker international skaters as the end result. Weaker skaters accordingly receive lower TES and PCS
The "last warm-up group PCS" is a different issue; although I would not rate it as an issue but rather as a logical outcome of the existing PCS judging. Currently, the PCS is awarded based on the visual comparison of skaters. It is easy to compare skaters when they skate back-to-back in the same group; not that easy to compare with skaters who skated an hour ago. That's why skaters receive their PCS pretty much in the light of how other skaters do in their gruop. In the free skate last warp-up group, judges know for sure that they compare best with the best and they don't spare their GOE and PCS. In earlier groups, they sometimes do. A lesser known skater may get higher PCS in the last group if he/she is as good as the best; however, if he/she isn't, the judges may be particularly harsh on PCS because the comparison with the best makes it look worse.
I would would wish better tools for comparison and, the best would be objective points of reference for PCS. But this has been discussed in other topics more than once or twice.

It is not an outcome of the existing PCS criteria to be fair. Before the final competition of the year skaters are organized in the groups based on the results they achieved that season prior the competition. Skaters ranked lowest are in the first two groups, skaters ranked higher are in the last groups. It is not even the rank based on just wining the prior competitions, you can achieve points if you attend more ISU competitions, by being seen and evaluate more times, and of course finish those competitions the best you can. Which is perfectly fine for me, because by being more 'loyal' to ISU by attending more theirs competitions during the year, you are being 'rewarded' by that same ISU to have better starting position for the final competition of the year with higher chance to achieve better scores. You of course can still score high in first group after the short and deserve to skate in last group in the free, but generally you will get better scores with the same skate by skating in the last group from the start of the competitions, for the reasons (i think are fair) above. There are examples of very popular skaters as Pluschenko and Yu Na Kim, who didn't compete season prior to Olympic, and for many fans getting 'lowballed' by the judges in the short skating first, but that was their starting position of the competition, made by their own decisions that year and the year before.

 

[Anna K.]

Should these things even be compared in the first place?

If we want to see the whole picture, then yes.
And the whole picture says that social media have replaced crime investigation nowadays. We hear about and talk about abuse way more than we used to in past because people are bringing complaints about the abuse to social media instead of submitting their complaints to the police. But it does not mean that there are greater numbers of abuse cases or that abuse today is viewed as more normal than it used to be in the past.

If you want to know my opinion - I guess you don't but let's pop this can of worms open - I think that this whole situation with social media is wrong. IMO people who have hurt other people must be taken to court according to the law. In the case of police investigation, there is a certain code (that slightly varies in each country), i.e., the law provides that the victim is not named unless the victim himself/herself decides to go public; and the suspect is only named after there is enough evidence to send the case to court. There are court proceedings that have been developed for centuries to provide maximum justice. The social media "investigations", "discussions", and "justice by mobbing" only make more mess and help no one.
But this is my opinion. Everybody is entitled to his/her own.