Senior Ladies' Free Skate

[carolinefan177]

One, what does Nagasu receiving downgrades in other competitions have to do with how she skated at Nationals? Her jumps were all sufficiently rotated here. Go look for yourself. You're suggesting some sort of conspiracy, are you? Two, Mirai is a better skater right now, so what does the potential of Zhang to be better in the future have to do with how she skated at Nationals? The prospects of some members of this board are ridiculous. Are you suggesting that the judges factor in previous competitions into the judging of a given event? Are you suggesting that they judge based on what might become of a skater in the future. Absurd.

Anyone who has actually skated knows what good technique is and that is taken into account in the judging. Mirai has an overall better technique, on everything.

Oh silly me. I forgot. The judges are ALWAYS right. How could I possibly think that Ashley Wagner flutzed tonight or Mirai's jumps shouldn't have gotten downgraded? I guess I better have yet another look at the programs

Let's not argue; ok?
We'll just agree to disagree

 

[jeff goldblum]

No one is saying that because Mirai didn't win the freeskate she shouldn't have won. The short program counts too, but the fact is some of us look at the grand scheme of things, the bigger picture, and it is clear that things like downgrades, edge calls, and other aspects didn't get addressed fairly tonight or yesterday for that matter.

That is my point. That is not how competitions are judged, unfortunately for those of you with that mindset. Each program gets a score, the two are added up, and the highest points wins.

Mirai doesn't have any edge issues on her jumps first of all, which goes back to what I said about her technique. As far as under rotated landings. Yes she has been downgraded on jumps in the past, but so have Emily, Kimmie, Caroline, Rachel, World Champion Miki Ando, etc. It is based on how the skater performed on that night. What I saw from Mirai were clean landings on all of her jumps. I skate, I know what they look like. I also felt Caroline's were all clean too, though I admittedly was paying less attention.

 

[krenseby]

Oh silly me. I forgot. The judges are ALWAYS right.

One thing we've all learned as posters on skating message boards is that the judges hardly ever have biases, almost never play favorites, and never give out deductions in an arbitrary way based on their desire to promote certain skaters and bring others down ;-) If only judges in other sports were so honest and objective!

 

[carolinefan177]

What an amazing competition this was.

SO happy that Nagasu won! She deserved to jump out of the shadow of Zhang. It was just disgraceful the traction Zhang was getting above everyone else. She is NOT that amazingly artistic, people really need to stop saying that. She can do nice movements and tons of talent but in terms of natural relation to the music, Kwan was better at the same age. Zhang certainly needs more speed too.

In any case, the U.S. has an AMAZING future ahead in the women's department. Nagasu, Zhang, Wagner, and Flatt are going to be a FORCE. It's really sad that one of them is going to have to miss the 2010 Olympic team.

She got her 3T downgraded in the long and that was the only one that needed to be downgraded (I REALLY want to see a replay of Flatt's 3T again as well, though, because it was suspicious).

I would place Mirai 4th place in the LP but it was still a very good performance (in terms of PCS, the best of all the ladies for me) and she deserved the title overall because of that amazing SP.

I'm really curious as to what you think constitutes this artistry thing because I'm pretty sure making your coach cry probably means you related to him or her fairly well on an emotional level, but then again, I guess everyone sees artistry differently. Ditto on whole amazing future, Nagasu winning, and possible downgrade for Flatt though. :yes:

 

[jeff goldblum]

Oh silly me. I forgot. The judges are ALWAYS right. How could I possibly think that Ashley Wagner flutzed tonight or Mirai's jumps shouldn't have gotten downgraded? I guess I better have yet another look at the programs

Let's not argue; ok?
We'll just agree to disagree

I hate that phrase, so no, we won't agree to disagree. It seems that everyone here, including myself is just promoting or supporting his favorite skater, and that is getting in the way. I can see how you are saying what goes for one should go for another. Ashley does flutz, that is clear. Do we know for a fact that she wasn't downgraded though. Are the judges scores posted anywhere yet.

As far as Mirai's jumps, either today or yesterday, go, I will staunchly defend my position that they were all cleanly rotated. You all seem to be arguing that since she had so many downgrades this season, there's no way she could possibly have cleaned up her jumps in the past month, and managed to do everyone cleanly here.

 

[bekalc]

I don't know... I don't know why Caroline generates quite so much hatred among skating fans -- I can only imagine that her person or her skating alienates many among the judges and federation officials as well, for perhaps the same reasons (I don't really understand these reasons, but just look at the number of her haterz on these forums). In what way does Caroline's 173.16 make her less deserving than Alex Gilles' 156.17 of another trip to the JW?

China and USA do not have an agreement to allow dual citizenships. I'm sure though if Caroline applied to be a Chinese citizen, that China wouldn't hesitate to take her. Her coach is being courted by the Chinese federation to go back to China to coach the girls there (there are rumors that she might make a switch this coming summer, whether temporary or permanent is not known, but the negotiations are only in preliminary stages). If so, Caroline may spend part of her time training there (my own speculations). Once her Chinese gets better and she makes some friends there, then maybe she'll be more tempted to move there (her grandparents still live there). I'm sure the Chinese federation wouldn't have trouble having her win the Chinese National's!

Maybe Mirai was being held up today for first place because USFSA is really afraid of the JSF courting her. I wonder though, how USFSA and all Caroline's haterz would feel if she and her family felt like the USFSA is really trying to slight her, and they decide to change citizenships...

I don't think she will though. For many political, social, and economic reasons, a Chinese citizenship is loads more trouble than an American or Japanese one.

Huh? How are the USFSA slighting Caroline. Zhang is very talented. But she's not necessarily more talented than Nagasu, Wagner, and Flatt. For example Flatt, Wagner, and Nagasu have all five triple jumps.

 

[Wrlmy]

That is my point. That is not how competitions are judged, unfortunately for those of you with that mindset. Each program gets a score, the two are added up, and the highest points wins.

Mirai doesn't have any edge issues on her jumps first of all, which goes back to what I said about her technique. As far as under rotated landings. Yes she has been downgraded on jumps in the past, but so have Emily, Kimmie, Caroline, Rachel, World Champion Miki Ando, etc. It is based on how the skater performed on that night. What I saw from Mirai were clean landings on all of her jumps. I skate, I know what they look like. I also felt Caroline's were all clean too, though I admittedly was paying less attention.

One of her lutzs was marked "e".

 

[megsy]

Mirai doesn't have any edge issues on her jumps first of all, which goes back to what I said about her technique. As far as under rotated landings. Yes she has been downgraded on jumps in the past, but so have Emily, Kimmie, Caroline, Rachel, World Champion Miki Ando, etc. It is based on how the skater performed on that night. What I saw from Mirai were clean landings on all of her jumps. I skate, I know what they look like. I also felt Caroline's were all clean too, though I admittedly was paying less attention.

Actually if you look at the protocols from these Championships, Mirai got called for flutzing...not to be picky or anything. So basically you should check your information first (and you're not the only person who skates - her landings are clean but grating, etched out - this time at least).

Anyway, I really should sleep now!

 

[carolinefan177]

Huh? How are the USFSA slighting Caroline. Zhang is very talented. But she's not necessarily more talented than Nagasu, Wagner, and Flatt. For example Flatt, Wagner, and Nagasu have all five triple jumps.

I think Nagasu got rid of the 3S for now though. I wonder why...

 

[gocaroline]

Go Caroline!

After the mistake of Caroline's SP UR call, while I felt bad for her, I knew she would have some pressure off since her 7th place finish after the SP. And I am so happy that she did have a great LP tonight

IMO Caroline does has the best posture on ice She will be remembered for her grace on ice no matter what. Mirai is lovely and sweet but doesn't impress me and she does have jumping issues. About Caroline's speed, IMO figure skating is never equal to Speed Skating anyway I have to admit that I also feel the national judges are harsher on her then other girls, which is sad and her team should really find out a solution to that. That's the ugly thing about this sports with human judges

Great competition tonight:agree: And best wishes for every girls competing today All these girls have worked hard to earn the chance to compete at nationals (Let's not forget those girls competed in the morning) and I hope all of them will go home with some good memory about this trip. Hope Kimmie will put this behind her and do whatever she wants to with full confidence, afterall she is a world champion and no one can take that away from her.

 

[jeff goldblum]

Actually if you look at the protocols from these Championships, Mirai got called for flutzing...not to be picky or anything. So basically you should check your information first (and you're not the only person who skates - her landings are clean but grating, etched out - this time at least).

Anyway, I really should sleep now!

If you skate, and ever competed, you'd see that all the way down through preliminary you have results where the kid who did 87 double salchows got 9th and everyone doesn't get it because the kid who won only did a single axel. Caroline landed some jumps. Big deal.

Can you direct me to link for the protocols please, so that I might be better informed.

Not that less bad is any good, but In the rule book, as I know it, flutzing was always described as a blatant edge change in which the skater makes no attempt to even be on the right edge. Even if Mirai's edge rolls slightly, she is actually attempting to be on that outside edge through to the point of takeoff.

 

[carolinefan177]

If you skate, and ever competed, you'd see that all the way down through preliminary you have results where the kid who did 87 double salchows got 9th and everyone doesn't get it because the kid who won only did a single axel. Caroline landed some jumps. Big deal.

Can you direct me to link for the protocols please, so that I might be better informed.

Not that less bad is any good, but In the rule book, as I know it, flutzing was always described as a blatant edge change in which the skater makes no attempt to even be on the right edge. Even if Mirai's edge rolls slightly, she is actually attempting to be on that outside edge through to the point of takeoff.

Gosh darn it. I guess I'm wrong again. For some reason, I thought Caroline had first rate spins, spirals, and a level three step sequence that rightfully deserved +GOE, but I could be wrong. Caroline is known for her jumps after all

 

[GoldMedalist]

I'm really curious as to what you think constitutes this artistry thing because I'm pretty sure making your coach cry probably means you related to him or her fairly well on an emotional level

MANY coaches cry or display a lot of overt emotion when their skater comes back and does that well.

I didn't say Zhang has no artistry either, only that it is overrated. She isn't yet at the point where she's fully understanding the emotions of her music and transmitting it all back out.

 

[carolinefan177]

MANY coaches cry or display a lot of overt emotion when their skater comes back and does that well.

I didn't say Zhang has no artistry either, only that it is overrated. She isn't yet at the point where she's fully understanding the emotions of her music and transmitting it all back out.

You're right. I guess she has to sprout wings first. No, I'm totally kidding with you. If that's the case, I wonder how she will be when, and if, she does make it to that level of Kwan-ness

 

[jeff goldblum]

Gosh darn it. I guess I'm wrong again. For some reason, I thought Caroline had first rate spins, spirals, and a level three step sequence that rightfully deserved +GOE, but I could be wrong. Caroline is known for her jumps after all

Again, direct me to the judges protocols so I can see the judges marks. If my memory serves, I believe Mirai also had first rate spirals, spins, and steps.

You're alias clearly shows your bias, so I'm pretty unlikely to listen to anything you have to say.

I guess the judges probably had this thing decided from day one. They're definitely against Caroline and only want Nagasu, Flatt, and Wagner who all have jump problems of their own to succeed. I am sure they weren't judging based on merit alone. Certainly not.

 

[carolinefan177]

Again, direct me to the judges protocols so I can see the judges marks. If my memory serves, I believe Mirai also had first rate spirals, spins, and steps.

You're alias clearly shows your bias, so I'm pretty unlikely to listen to anything you have to say.

I guess the judges probably had this thing decided from day one. They're definitely against Caroline and only want Nagasu, Flatt, and Wagner who all have jump problems of their own to succeed. I am sure they weren't judging based on merit alone. Certainly not.

LOL. Ok. If I offend you so much with my overly biased comments, that's fine; ignore me. You probably should. I really don't give a flip.

Here's the proto BTW
http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/events/200708/uschamps/protocols/seniorladies-protocols.pdf

 

[ANW]

Mirai is exciting or lovely you can call that but I don't feel her skate very much. So is Rachel. Caroline and Ashley are my favorites. These two have the presence on the ice, that is something missing for quite a while since Michelle and Sasha left. I was so surprised by the lower score these two received in the free skate, especially Ashley's (Caroline's low score may be explained/justified by the fact of her skating in the first group).I have an awful feeling these two will have a tough time in US nationals the judges don't seem like these two.

After the mistake of Caroline's SP UR call, while I felt bad for her, I knew she would have some pressure off since her 7th place finish after the SP. And I am so happy that she did have a great LP tonight

IMO Caroline does has the best posture on ice She will be remembered for her grace on ice no matter what. Mirai is lovely and sweet but doesn't impress me and she does have jumping issues. About Caroline's speed, IMO figure skating is never equal to Speed Skating anyway I have to admit that I also feel the national judges are harsher on her then other girls, which is sad and her team should really find out a solution to that. That's the ugly thing about this sports with human judges

Great competition tonight:agree: And best wishes for every girls competing today All these girls have worked hard to earn the chance to compete at nationals (Let's not forget those girls competed in the morning) and I hope all of them will go home with some good memory about this trip. Hope Kimmie will put this behind her and do whatever she wants to with full confidence, afterall she is a world champion and no one can take that away from her.

 

[krenseby]

Again, direct me to the judges protocols so I can see the judges marks. If my memory serves, I believe Mirai also had first rate spirals, spins, and steps.

You're alias clearly shows your bias, so I'm pretty unlikely to listen to anything you have to say.

I guess the judges probably had this thing decided from day one. They're definitely against Caroline and only want Nagasu, Flatt, and Wagner who all have jump problems of their own to succeed. I am sure they weren't judging based on merit alone. Certainly not.

Not everybody sticking up for Zhang is biased against Nagasu. I am definitely a Mirai fan. I really loved her skate at the International Counter Match in Japan and her SP at this year's Nationals was absolutely amazing (the LP great too, but she was a little bit tense.) However, my intuition tells me that Zhang is really not reaching her potential in terms of position + score. I would have liked to have her score better and I already said before, she needs to opt for a faster, lighter style that appeals to the judges.

 

[jsteam4501s]

Well, NOW many of you see one of the effects of the age rule - here we have TWO medal winners who can't go to Worlds and a third skater who can't be our first alternate at Worlds. What a ridiculous MESS!!

I believe without question that Nagasu, Flatt, and Wagner COULD secure 3 positions for LA. You can bet your bottom dollar that Korean and JSF officials are doing cartwheels NOW about the age rule. They might have wanted special exemptions for their champions at an earlier time, but they're just FINE with the rule NOW.

 

[Wrlmy]

I believe without question that Nagasu, Flatt, and Wagner COULD secure 3 positions for LA. You can bet your bottom dollar that Korean and JSF officials are doing cartwheels NOW about the age rule. They might have wanted special exemptions for their champions at an earlier time, but they're just FINE with the rule NOW.

And you blame them? By the time they were 15, Mao was the GPF champion, and Yu-na was three-time national champion.