Senior Ladies' Free Skate

[feraina]

I don\\\'t really believe in comparing the scores that elements have received - in some cases the judges are judging by reputation rather by actual quality of elements, in some cases they are extremely lenient (Carolina\\\'s lvl4 on footwork at NHK), in some cases a disastrously looking element, but CoP-smart scores way higher than a beautiful and difficult element that according to judges lacks some feature. It\\\'s a big pet peeve of mine.

I agree with you on these general points. It's just a rough guideline. Small differences don't mean much, only big differences do. The names that cropped up do strike me as the best in each area, generally speaking. Btw, Carolina has the highest scoring level 3 footwork sequence (at GPF), not counting her CoC level 4.

Anyway, I think in Caroline's case, she certainly doesn't have the benefit of reputation, nor is she the kind of skater who gets into cleverly designed but ugly positions that get higher levels (but generally low GOE's). So, I think if anything the lists I compiled favor more seasoned competitors over her. I think it's not a surprise that she does well in spins & spirals, but maybe it surprises some that she should turn up in 3-3 jumps and footwork sequences too. Those are the things that she has been steadily improving on through the season. She was getting level 1's and low GOE's at the start of the season on the footwork sequence. And during her last junior year, footwork was one of her weaknesses too. But this season she has really improved on them, culminating in the beautiful circular footwork sequence in the 'Ave Maria' at National's.

 

[inskate]

No, I\'m not diminishing Caroline\'s accomplishments at all! I just mentioned my recent CoP woes because while I loved the idea of CoP. it annoys me more and more recently (the execution of it, not the idea itself).

Just to point out again, Carolina\'s score for footwork at GPF was 3.60 and 3.80 respectively, while Mao\'s was 4.00 and 3.80 (she had a little bob in the LP), so Mao\'s was actually the highest when they competed against each other.
And Caro-C got lvl4 at NHK, not CoC.

ETA: Just why are all the ///\'s doing in my posts? I have not typed them, I swear. Maybe I should give up on Opera

 

[PolymerBob]

ETA: Just why are all the ///\'s doing in my posts? I have not typed them, I swear. Maybe I should give up on Opera

Let me guess. You are using a word processor to type your messages, then cut-and-pasting the messages here.

 

[inskate]

Let me guess. You are using a word processor to type your messages, then cut-and-pasting the messages here.

No (way too much trouble!), I am mostly using the QuickReply box. When I preview the messages they look okay, but after I hit the Submit Reply box all the inverted comas and such suddenly are followed by some slashes. And the smiles do not work at all for me...
I think I am going to just give up on using contractions altogether and learn the smilie codes.

In order not to make this post totally OT... Go, Mirai! I just loved the footwork sequence in the LP.

 

[gocaroline]

Quote by Feriana:

So who shows up in all four lists? Only little Caroline! Yeah, that's right, little Caroline who has so many flaws, is actually the only one who can compete with the world's best in terms of getting the most points for each of jump combination, spin, spiral sequence, and footwork sequence. Talk about the whole package!

:agree::agree::agree::agree::agree:

Thanks for the information! I watched Caroline at SA last November, she was simply amazing and I remember the audience including me all got up giving her a standing ovation even before she finished the short program Her skating just moves the audience very few others can do.

I remember Yuna's SP at last worlds that was so amazing and captivating, I even wonder whether she can ever repeat that kind of performance. So I was pretty surprised by Mirai's over 70 mark at the SP with that great performance yet in no way close to Yuna's Carmen that got her the high 70 mark.

 

[inskate]

So who shows up in all four lists? Only little Caroline!

One more correction: after counting Mao\'s highest score for combo, she now also appears in all 4 lists.

RE: Highest score ever for SP: Nationals scores are usually very generous, so it\'s impossible to compare that versus international scores. Then again, Worlds scores are also infated a bit. My favourite SP ever happened during GP...

 

[ildah]

I really enjoyed the Nationals. I didn't mind the commentary at all. I didn't see the end of the ladies, though - maybe the commentary got carried away!? I actually think David Pelletier is quite sharp and witty. Jamie is a bit more stiff - In Olympic Ice in Torino when they could act totally goofy with Mary Carillo they were better though. I do like their perspective on the pairs.

I also love Dick Button and the rest of the group, Scott and Sandra included and of course Tracy! I was watching the golf as well, and noticed Nick Faldo from Britain as one of the co-anchors on CBS. And there's a girl on CNN who does major commentating on the political debates and she sounds Aussie. So the nationality thing doesn't bother me, not nowadays. Especially with the way the skaters and coaches move back and forth to different cities- Russians training Americans, Lori Nicol (love story) choreographed Evan's program didn't she etc. etc.

 

[ChrisH]

Spin: Caroline Zhang (4.5), Yukari Nakano (4.2), Mao Asada (4.0)

Here are a few more (GPs and GPF only):
4.50 Alissa Czisny CCoSp4 NHK SP 3.50 1.00
4.40 Yukari Nakano CCoSp4 SC SP 3.50 0.90
4.40 Kimmie Meissner CCoSp4 TEB FS 3.50 0.90
4.30 Yu-Na Kim CCoSp4 GPF SP 3.50 0.80

Given Mao's flexibility, she still has room for improvement (can gain additional points easier) with her spins.

I look forward to Caroline getting her donut spin up to snuff which will improve her (non-change of foot) combination spin. The flying entry to her sit spin continues to improve. One variation that she should bring back is the finishing I-spin she did at Skate America. That position was even better than her pearl position (in her layback spin), IMO. Her hands held both her boot toe and heel and she did a complete 180 degree split. When she let her hands go, her free foot seemed to effortlessly suspend there before floating to the ground. Perhaps she could keep the variation she did here (which was very good), but somehow keep her free foot up longer.

ETA: for comparison ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ya0rxyJLxTQ at the 4:35 mark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCqpa9c0ujs at the 4:45 mark

 

[mhu714]

I'm quite late to this thread (in fact it's been quite some time since I even posted but that's another story), but please allow me to share what will probably be redundant after almost 400 posts. Of all the "newbies" I love, love, love Caroline She may need to add some speed and flow in certain parts of her programs but IMHO she has the best spirals and spins of anyone around. Mirai is also amazing and has incredible spring (reminds me of Yu Na there) but for me, she's not as mesmerizing as Caroline. I SO cannot wait to see how things progress over the next 2 years and how things play out in 2010.

 

[GoldMedalist]

2010 will be extremely exciting but the scary thing is thinking about 2014 if all these American girls remain injury-free and continue to become even better performers...

 

[R.D.]

Well, as Costas put it, US ladies' skating is in a transition right now, and until our Medalists are old enough to go to worlds, it could be a rough one at this worlds and possibly the next.

Of the youngsters though I'm most concerned about Zhang. She has yet to really "grow up" and with the expectations on her she could easily go through what Meissner is experiencing right now, and people will turn on her like crazy. Skating in general does not seem to be kind to those who break out at an early age. It has claimed skaters like Cohen, Ando, and Kostner in the past and Meissner is its latest victim. And even the ones who succeeded (Lipinski) were forced out by major injury.

I do hope Kim can find some way back into things, but I think we can say with a straight face that her days are definitely numbered, barring some miracle turnaround or makeover. That said, she does have a World and National gold, something not everyone has. If she wants to continue to the Olympics in 2010 it'll be tough especially with all the youngsters knocking on the door. I mean, the only reason she's on this world team is because of the age rule.

 

[feraina]

Of the youngsters though I'm most concerned about Zhang. She has yet to really "grow up" and with the expectations on her she could easily go through what Meissner is experiencing right now, and people will turn on her like crazy. Skating in general does not seem to be kind to those who break out at an early age.

That's why I think that this National's may be a blessing in disguise for her, even though she fell short of the pre-National's expectations. Firstly I hope she takes a good look at why she's not scoring higher and what she can improve on. Secondly, I think this should take a lot of pressure/heat off of her, so that she can breathe a little more easily and skate a little more freely. Most of the media attention has now shifted to the other three girls, it's Caroline who's now almost flying under the radar, which is kinda funny. I really hope that she can end the season with two clean programs in the same competition -- although if she defends her JW title, that'll be a record of a sort and the media attention will be shifted back to her again... Well, I think with four such talented youngsters in the U.S., not one of them will have to worry about the risk of having too much media attention/pressure on them any time soon. I expect that they will share out the glory and titles in the next few years.

 

[Yellow Cat]

2010 will be extremely exciting but the scary thing is thinking about 2014 if all these American girls remain injury-free and continue to become even better performers...

I'd like to see how next year plays out first. I keep remembering Naomi Nari Nam. 2nd to Kwan in '99, billed as The Next Big Thing, 2002 Olympic Champion, victim of the age rule, same conversations we're having now....8th in 2000...and disappeared from 2001-2005 or so? Of the Big 4 we're discussing now, I'm really curious as to who will still be contending in 2010.

 

[luckyguy]

Of the Big 4 we're discussing now, I'm really curious as to who will still be contending in 2010.

Oh yes! That is the question. I am curious too.

 

[Andalusia]

Okay, I've finally stopped babbling incoherently although I still remain in awe.

I've been trying to pinpoint exactly what it is that makes Caroline's LP so enchanting besides the obviously gorgeous spins and spirals. I think it might be that she appears so sensitive to the music. The face she had on in her opening pose says it all - she looked like a little angel. I think, especially in this particular performance, she's starting to take the Kween's advice in that she seems to be skating with more expression and heart. She exudes a quality that makes her seem vulnerable to the audience. The smile she had on during the entire exquisite footwork sequence is a classic Kwan hallmark. In contrast, Mirai looked as if she was all business and just ready to get the job done, even though she performed her LP sterlingly.

I think it's safe to say that Caroline clearly wasn't just going through the motions in this LP. If she can improve here on up (I'm sure a better understanding of the music will come with age), I think that as far as the artistic aspect of her skating goes, she will be moving in the right direction.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Caroline, imo, needs new music and a new choreographer. I know from the past that some posters who see a 180 degree spiral and lovely arms are satified with those attributes for making a champion. I did three years ago when I first saw her in juniors.

Realistically, though, I do not see much more now. Her routine is to center most of her flexibility around the judges. From my advantage, she does not seem to cover the whole ice. The slow paced music justifies the appearance of her skating slowly. She needs to prove that she can move with speed as did Mirai.

IMO, when she ups the tempo, she will be more competitive with Mirai who seems to skate with non-stop-speed.

Joe

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

It was a very interesting Nationals. Usually, the results are what you expected but here in St.Paul, things were different.

Mirai showed dominance; Raechel and Ashley gave a don't count me out. Ms Hacker made a statement, Ms Bulanhagui became a reality despite the underscoring, Bebe showing some spunk, Unfortunately, Ms Cizney wasn;t able to change her course, and Caroline showed vulnerability.

The new era in Ladies figure skating is making headway and Kwan, Cohen, Lipinsky will become yesterday news.

Joe

 

[bekalc]

In contrast, Mirai looked as if she was all business and just ready to get the job done, even though she performed her LP sterlingly.

Mirai smiled quite a lot in her short program. She skated with a lot of joy there. In the case of her long, I think Mirai was just really nervous and afraid that she would blow it. Mirai in that program had everything to lose, where Caroline had nothing to lose. That's not a fair comparision.

I think Mirai in time will learn how to just let things go in those types of situations.

Caroline, imo, needs new music and a new choreographer. I know from the past that some posters who see a 180 degree spiral and lovely arms are satified with those attributes for making a champion. I did three years ago when I first saw her in juniors.

Realistically, though, I do not see much more now. Her routine is to center most of her flexibility around the judges. From my advantage, she does not seem to cover the whole ice. The slow paced music justifies the appearance of her skating slowly. She needs to prove that she can move with speed as did Mirai.

IMO, when she ups the tempo, she will be more competitive with Mirai who seems to skate with non-stop-speed.

For me the thing is that Caroline is hardly the only skater out there with great flexibility, spirals, and spins. For example Nagasu is hardly lacking in the flexibilty department. Her spins are amazing as well, and her spirals are also amazing... Mao has fabulous spirals.

I'm personally with Dick Button though in that the flexibility thing has really gotten out of hand. I think being able to skate extremely fast accross the ice/having better edges is a lot more indicative of whose the better skater, than well being able to hold your leg up to 180 degrees. I like flexibility but I think the blades should be more important.

 

[Kwanford Wife]

It was a very interesting Nationals. Usually, the results are what you expected but here in St.Paul, things were different.

Mirai showed dominance; Raechel and Ashley gave a don't count me out. Ms Hacker made a statement, Ms Bulanhagui became a reality despite the underscoring, Bebe showing some spunk, Unfortunately, Ms Cizney wasn;t able to change her course, and Caroline showed vulnerability.

The new era in Ladies figure skating is making headway and Kwan, Cohen, Lipinsky will become yesterday news.

Joe

Bite your tongue (or smash your fingers...) Michelle Kwan will NEVER become yesterday's news...

But on a serious note, some of the young ladies listed above will, given this sport's disrespect & disregard for the phenom, probably be left in the dust... but who will that be? Who will be the Jennifer Kirk of her generation? Who will be the Kwan?

 

[GoldMedalist]

I'd like to see how next year plays out first. I keep remembering Naomi Nari Nam. 2nd to Kwan in '99, billed as The Next Big Thing, 2002 Olympic Champion, victim of the age rule, same conversations we're having now....8th in 2000...and disappeared from 2001-2005 or so? Of the Big 4 we're discussing now, I'm really curious as to who will still be contending in 2010.

Naomi Nari Nam wasn't nearly as good of a jumper as the top 3 girls at this year's Nationals.

But, it's true, growing bodies and continual pressure might get to some of the new-wave girls.