The Ups and Downs of the Ladies

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Other than Mao (1-1) and Cynthia (8-8)

What do you make of these Judges Placements:

Rochette 3-2

Ando 2-3

Kim 6-4

Leung 7-6

Hacker 10-7

Wagner 12-5

Liang 5-11

Who were the Fighters.

Joe

 

[GoldMedalist]

Wagner got screwed.

 

[chuckm]

Rochette and Liang got what they deserved. Rochette had two great programs, while Liang had a halfway decent SP but a typical (for her) FS with falls and pops. Liang never seems upset when she has a bad FS, and maybe that is part of the problem. A skater has to care about the performance---feel happy when it is good and not happy when it is poor. Liang just seems to shrug off the bad ones.

Ando got what she deserved as well. If she's going to put the 4S in her FS, she's got to go ahead and do it, and not hold back at the last moment. I have a feeling that even if she had landed it, the rest of her program would have suffered due to the surge of adrenalin. Unfortunately, not going for it and doubling the jump had just the same effect: she was distracted and not into her performance at all.

Na-Young Kim received major gifts for skating in her home country. She was good, but not that good compared to other skaters. In the FS, she underrotated her final jump, had only two combos and one sequence (and no 3-jump combo), and landed only 4 triples---yet finished 4th in the FS?

Mira Leung was overscored in both SP and FS. She is STILL underrotating the 2A, but the tech team turned a blind eye to it. Her jump technique is as ugly as ever and her presentation blah, but the judges turned a blind eye to that, too.

Cynthia Phaneuf is incredibly slow, and I couldn't believe her FS with two falls scored over 100, and just enough for her to place ahead of Wagner.

Hacker skated beautifully and wuzrobbed in the PCS scores in her FS. Her FS was just beautiful, with great flow and lovely expression.

Wagner wuzrobbed, starting with the ur call on her fully rotated 3F in the SP. I was amazed that she could come back and fight, delivering a great FS---only to be underrewarded once again. I don't blame her if she is angry and disgusted. Many of us are, too.

 

[oleada]

Na-Young Kim received major gifts for skating in her home country. She was good, but not that good compared to other skaters. In the FS, she underrotated her final jump, had only two combos and one sequence (and no 3-jump combo), and landed only 4 triples---yet finished 4th in the FS?

Well, jumps aren't everything. She had three level 4 spins and spiral sequence, 1 level 3 spin and step sequence. Her triples were harder than Katrina Hacker's and she doesn't flutz nor lip. Her triple toe was downgraded, and she received mostly -3 and a few -2 for it. If anything she benefited in the PCS from skating in the last group, but her technical score is understandable.

Mira Leung was overscored in both SP and FS. She is STILL underrotating the 2A, but the tech team turned a blind eye to it. Her jump technique is as ugly as ever and her presentation blah, but the judges turned a blind eye to that, too.

Agreed

Cynthia Phaneuf is incredibly slow, and I couldn't believe her FS with two falls scored over 100, and just enough for her to place ahead of Wagner.

Well, I thought she was lovely. I'd have to watch again in regards to speed, but she had a very mature, choreographically intricate program. Aside from the two falls and an edge call on her flip, I thought she had a great performance. Everything aside from the two falls was well done.

Hacker skated beautifully and wuzrobbed in the PCS scores in her FS. Her FS was just beautiful, with great flow and lovely expression.

I agree on this one. She had a beautiful, mature, elegant performance.

Wagner wuzrobbed, starting with the ur call on her fully rotated 3F in the SP. I was amazed that she could come back and fight, delivering a great FS---only to be underrewarded once again. I don't blame her if she is angry and disgusted. Many of us are, too.

I agree that her flip was unfairly downgraded. However, I think she was judged fairly in the LP. Her loop WAS short on rotation. She does have an awful flutz (does she even hit an outside edge?) and was rightfully marked down for it. She got hurt by some levels - compared to Na-Young Kim, for example, who had a slightly higher score, she got dinged for lower levels, even though she had higher PCS. I think she had a good performance, however, the choreography in her program is not very interesting and while she has a lot of attack, I could understand why some judges would get tired of attack-only mode the entire time.

 

[champs]

I can never understand why so many people (esp on the Ladies LP thread) describe Wagner's programs and her skating style as "attack" and/or "junior-ish."
It just baffles me.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Na-Young Kim received major gifts for skating in her home country. She was good, but not that good compared to other skaters. In the FS, she underrotated her final jump, had only two combos and one sequence (and no 3-jump combo), and landed only 4 triples---yet finished 4th in the FS?

A BIG AGREE here. I don't know what she was doing in the Final Six let alone getting a 4th place. She skated like a deer in headlights in her SP and LP. She stood up. Nothing was special. I liked the other Korean who has more style. I will watch for her next year.

I think it was a gift for Korea for holding the competition.

Joe

 

[bekalc]

A BIG AGREE here. I don't know what she was doing in the Final Six let alone getting a 4th place. She skated like a deer in headlights in her SP and LP. She stood up. Nothing was special. I liked the other Korean who has more style. I will watch for her next year.

I think it was a gift for Korea for holding the competition.

Joe

And Na-Young was actually given pretty low PC marks for the short program, Ashley, Hacker, Miri, most of them got higher PCS then Na-Young in the short.

Na-Young only netted 1 GOE point altogether in the short. What put her in the final group was she did a fairly clean (minimal -GOE) triple lutz/double toe, and a triple flip, and a double axel. Plus Na-Young had all level four spins, and a level four spiral. No one under Na-Young was able to produce clean lutz, triple flip, and double axel....And I checked the protocolls. So Na-Young' placement was really quite fair.

The same goes for the long program.. Na-Young may have only attempted five triples, but four of them were lutz/flips. And Na-Young wasn't given edge deductions...

Considering that Hacker for example, didn't attempt a flip and repeated the triple toe and triple salchow, she lost quite a bit of points to Na-Young right there. Na-Young also had higher levels than Hacker.

 

[fumie_fumie]

A BIG AGREE here. I don't know what she was doing in the Final Six let alone getting a 4th place. She skated like a deer in headlights in her SP and LP. She stood up. Nothing was special. I liked the other Korean who has more style. I will watch for her next year.

I think it was a gift for Korea for holding the competition.

Joe

The other Korean girl has nothing to speak of in terms of the jump layout. I believe she repeats toe-loops, salcows and 2axels and is not all that consistent with any of the triples.

She was invited to NHK and finished near the bottom two years in a row. Her team led by famed coach Michiko Hamada in Japan has strong enough connections with JSF and hence she got placements in NHK.

She has a better choreo and perhaps more polish than the other Korean skaters, thanks partly to her training in Japan, the coach and the choreographer. She is a Japanese-born Korean and later gave up her Japanese citizenship to join the Korean federation in the hope to get an international assignment. She knew darn well that had she competed in Japan, she wouldn't have any chance of getting past the Chubu regional.

Na-Young won the Korean nationals in the field where senior ladies don't have any of harder jumps - lutz, flips, loops.

 

[netnuts]

My take on the scores/placements.

Mao about right. SP should be higher.

Rochette about right.

Ando about right, SP should be higher.

Kim vastly overscored but understandable. PCS too high. FS should be in the range of 90-100. She should fall behind Wager/Mira/Katrina.

Leung about right. Her score at TEB was around 100. She did a 'clean'(3t downgraded) program at 4cc, it was obviously her seasonal best performance.

Hacker overscored, she does not have reliable hard jumps, judges at GP events won't pass out PCS as generously as 4cc. FS should be in the range of 90-100 range. She should rank behind Wagner.

Wagner underscored. She does two 'clean' programs with 3+3. FS should be in the range of 100 to 110.

Liang overscored, pcs benefitted from skating in the last group. FS should be in the range of 80 to 90.

Cynthia, vastly overscored, slow, unappealing spirals, two falls. FS should be in the range of 85 to 95, she should rank behind Wagner, Hacker.

GIMAZETDINOVA(UZB), score about right, but should place higher due to Cynthia's inflated scores.

My rankings.
1. Mao
2. Joannie
3. Miki
4. Wagner
5. Leung
6. Hacker
7.GIMAZETDINOVA
8. Na-Young KIM
9. Cynthia

 

[chuckm]

I have to disagree about placing Leung ahead of Hacker. Hacker has a wonderful lyrical quality to her skating, with great flow and expression. Leung is an athletic performer skating to music that doesn't suit her, and her jump technique is as bizarre and ugly as it has ever been. Hacker should have received much higher PCS scores than Leung, and placed ahead of her.

 

[oleada]

Wagner underscored. She does two 'clean' programs with 3+3. FS should be in the range of 100 to 110.

Ashley didn't have a triple triple. The triple loop of the combo was underroated and downgraded.

 

[sorcerer]

...skating to music that doesn't suit her, and her jump technique is as bizarre and ugly as it has ever been.

Oh why do you persistently say "ugly" when she is making effort to make her skating better?
We would understand that you don't see progress in her jumps, even if you use different words.

 

[goldenpleasures]

The degree of American bias in this thread is

 

[chuckm]

Oh why do you persistently say "ugly" when she is making effort to make her skating better?
We would understand that you don't see progress in her jumps, even if you use different words.

The head turning up when Mira jumps is still there, and that IS an ugly jump technique. She has done nothing to correct that.

Mira sees herself through her mother's eyes, and as a result, she is too uncritical of her own performances. A skater needs to understand what is not right about her skating to be motivated to make the changes that really need to be made. She just skates and seems to think everyone, including the judges, must be bowled over by what she has done, just as her mother is, and she is nonplussed when she doesn't get the astronomically high marks she thinks she deserves.

The only real changes in Mira this year are different music and an effort to improve her appearance. It's great that she finally has gotten the message that ill-fitting costumes, taped boots and visibile underpinnings don't enhance her appeal. But using music that was a signature piece for Kwan doesn't make her into a Kwan. Mira doesn't skate like the champion she wants to be, and until she does something about her technique, she will remain a wannabe.

 

[feraina]

Mira sees herself through her mother's eyes, and as a result, she is too uncritical of her own performances.

A lot of posters seem to have damning opininons of Mira and especially her mother. How do we know how she sees herself? Or how her mother sees her? Presumably there was some interview or quotes from one or both to lead posters to these hostile opinions? Can someone please give a link to some of these? I'd really like to see some concrete evidence on Mira's or her mother's supposed hubris. Thanks!

 

[Spun Silver]

Oh why do you persistently say "ugly" when she is making effort to make her skating better?
We would understand that you don't see progress in her jumps, even if you use different words.

For that matter we would understand that chuckm despised Mira's skating even if he never said another word about her.

Some posters really get into negative campaigning against certain skaters. It irks me because most of the skaters are still kids in my eyes - many not even in their 20s.

These discussion boards are all about a small group of young competitors. Commenting on their weaknesses is one thing. Harping on them is another. Anyway it reflects more on the poster than the skater.

 

[chuckm]

Mira is hardly a kid---she turns 19 shortly after Worlds.

Mira has had a habit of criticizing the judges' marks. She complained after the SP at Worlds last year that her 2A had been unfairly downgraded (and that was nothing new, as the same thing had happened in the GP) and that her PCS scores were too low. She's been complaining about the PCS scores for the past two years, but she blames the judges and doesn't seem to understand or accept that something in her skating is responsible for the negative response from many, many judging panels.

As for her mother, it is well known that Mira's mother has had her skating long hours every day, moving from rink to rink, despite Joanne McLeod's insistence that Mira train only under her guidance. McLeod 'fired' Mira at the end of the 2005-2006 season because of the constant interference of her mother and Mira's intransigence when it came to following her coach's advice rather than her mother's. During the summer of 2006, Mira 'hired' a new coach, but was overheard at Skate Canada telling her new 'coach' that she was not to look at Mira or say anything to her. It was then that Skate Canada stepped in and negotiated a reunion between Mira and McLeod. But it seems the more things change, the more they remain the same. Mira debuted a new SP at Nationals despite McLeod's objection.

Mira has been home-schooled all her life and at competitions, she rooms with her mother, not with other skaters. The only feedback she ever gets is from her coach and her mother, and it still appears that her mother has her ear and her trust, not her coach. So there just isn't any reality testing in her very closed life.

Mira is a very talented skater, and it is a shame that her development has been misdirected and thwarted over the years. It isn't really her fault, but she is the one who pays the price in the end.

 

[nadster]

chuckm

Very good points about Mira's complaining.

IMO Mira needs to get away from BOTH her mother and her coach.

I agree that Mira's mother is very meddlesome. She even makes sure Mira has her whole outfit on before she enters the arena building so Mira doesn't even change with the other skaters for practice.

OTOH , there are things I notice with McLeod's students. Generally they tend to stalk their axels. I notice this is Sandhu, Reynolds and Kang as well ( all McLeod students ) . That suggests she is not the best coach of axel technique. I don't think that anyone would say that Reynolds and Kang would come with the attitude baggage that Sandhu and Leung does so it does suggest a flaw in teaching technique.

The other thing is that the Vancouver Sun in particular has a tendency to overhype McLeod's students like no other local paper does with their local skaters. The Vancouver sun mentions every Reynolds quad or Mira's triple triples to come like they are the 2 hottest properties in skating. The National Post even mentions Mira's 7's in PCS from judges at nationals like that is what she would get internationally. Often it is easy for a student to get sucked in by the hype and McLeod's students get more than the others across Canada in the press.

 

[fumie_fumie]

Chuckm and Nadster,

This is one of the few topics, all of us including laceup, nadster, chuck and I can agree on.

Excellent posts. You guys put words into my mouth. Mira has started to pay attention to her costumes and appearance, since Joannie Rochette gave her a big lecture on the presentation during the Team Canada meet in August in Vancouver. I was amazed that Mira listened to anyone other than her mum. Had it not been for Joannie's nagging, Mira would have been the same old Mira all over again.

Mira said on CBC during 06-07 Skate Canada that she wanted a coach who would just leave her alone and train.

Regarding her jumping techniques, it does her hurt a big time. Her turtle head is not just aesthetically ugly, but also keeps her from forming a tight upper body position in her spring to jumps and thus leads to under-rotation and stalking jumps (Compare Joannie's take-off and mid-air position to Mira's, you will know what it means). Peggy Fleming commented on it when Mira made a debut to senior GP back in 04-05 season and 4 seasons later it is still there. This is what bugs the fans most, because Joannie has worked her butt off to keep 2 berths and Mira, the major recipient of all the berths Joannie brought never pull her weight.

With respect to Joanne McLeod and her pupils, it is really unfortunate that Emanuel never corrected his take-off edge on 3A. Had he done it, he would have been a multiple times world champion by now. Nadster, you mentioned that stalking jumping techniques among BC skaters at Nationals except for Keegan Murphy. Surprise for you. Keegan is coached by his mum, not by Joanne.

Here is an article of Mira and Joanne reuniting after 06-07 split
http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=0851c016-040e-4ea5-9182-9831ed1c4151&k=1144

 

[passion]

I have to disagree about placing Leung ahead of Hacker. Hacker has a wonderful lyrical quality to her skating, with great flow and expression. Leung is an athletic performer skating to music that doesn't suit her, and her jump technique is as bizarre and ugly as it has ever been. Hacker should have received much higher PCS scores than Leung, and placed ahead of her.

Who is this Hacker everyone is talking about? Which country is she from and what is her full name?