Cohen Still Considering 2010 Games.......

[Yellow Cat]

Kwan showed tons more versatility than Cohen ever did and that's a fact! We never saw Sasha challenge herself with a departure program like The Beatles' "A Day In The Life", Eric Clapton's "Rush" soundtrack, or "The Miraculous Mandarin." Michelle was the first skater I ever saw perform to "Romanza", "Salome", "Dream of Desdemona", "Taj Mahal", "Lyra Angelica", "Lamento d'Ariane", "The Red Violin", "Song of the Black Swan", and "Concierto de Aranjuez."

Yep, and she skated the same program to every one of them.

 

[antmanb]

It's good to see some things never change. Even dipping in after months of not being able to! Seasons have gone by without either skater setting foot on competitive ice yet GS Forums will have the biggest thread dedicated to Sasha Cohen and Michelle Kwan!

In this regard i don't think either skater will ever be beaten! They are equal champions! And even as we are approaching the 2018 Olympic games someone will start a thread about either skater's comeback and how they revolutionised the sport!

Ant

 

[MKFSfan]

I think they both left their impact on the sport. I don't get how any one who puts in the years they have can just be cast aside as any old competitor. Michelle was at the top of her sport for a decade. I can buy a competition here or there the judges "gave" her, but not for a decade. She did make her competitors better-those that beat her soundly HAD to bring a 3/3 and I can think of only one competition where Michelle was pretty clean that she lost (1998 Olympics). During Michelle's reign, 7 triples became the goal for the ladies, and Michelle put forth several 7 triple LPs, and a lot of clean 3/3s, but since they were "only" 3t/3t, people have to dismiss that as an impressive stat. Michelle did popularize the COE spiral, hands behind the back/lowered leg layback. She did a Y-spin on both legs. There have been a lot that Michelle brought to the ice that is being emulated by new skaters every year, to say she didn't revolutionize the sport is being petty.

Sasha took what Nicole did, what Karyn before her did-used her flexibility to highlight her programs. Sasha has great lines, amazing positions, pointed toes, can contort her body in inhumane positions. I did think when COP first came about, the creators had Sasha in mind while thinking up rules for spins and spirals. I am glad in recent years, those rules where ammended so skaters with less flexibility (Yu-Na, Kimmie) can achieve a level 4 spin/spiral without breaking themselves. Mirai, Caroline and others say they idolize Michelle, but I see Sasha's influence in them, which is why they can succeed under COP in regards to spins/spirlas-flexibility maxed.

I wish Sasha had challenged herself more. I think people see her flexibility, fast spinning and choose to ignore she landed one 3/3 in competition (albeight a very tough one) and never had a clean 7 triple program (save the fluff event). But I do feel she left her mark on the sport, and did help revolutionize the sport by popularizing being gumby-like, which helps under COP.

 

[rtureck]

She's a great skater who has changed the ladies' way of skating forever. Without Sasha, we probably have to endure the same old sloppy female skaters on ice with bad posture.

Change forever? Not even for 1 sec (on the competitive side) IMO. Skating as a sport (I am talking about the competitive side) is forever changing.

But then I am not sure whether you are talking about show skating or competitive skating.

It's good to see some things never change. Even dipping in after months of not being able to! Seasons have gone by without either skater setting foot on competitive ice yet GS Forums will have the biggest thread dedicated to Sasha Cohen and Michelle Kwan!

In this regard i don't think either skater will ever be beaten! They are equal champions! And even as we are approaching the 2018 Olympic games someone will start a thread about either skater's comeback and how they revolutionised the sport!

Ant

I don't particularly want to talk about Michelle vs Cohen. But IMO they are not equal champions, not in medal count, not in their competitive fire, and mental toughness. When Cohen can skate her best after a streaker, or after the heel of her boot broke off, then IMO we can talk about equal champions

 

[museksk8r]

Holy Cow.....no one brings out controversy like Sasha.

Actually, Sasha has nothing to do with the controversy in this forum. It's unnecessarily rude comments and exaggerated statements from netnuts that is getting people riled up. From saying "I hate Cynthia Phaneuf" in the 4CC ladies' thread to implying that Sasha Cohen singlehandedly revolutionized ladies' figure skating and that no one in the history of the sport can equal her in posture and grace, I think I'm clearly in the right to disagree with him/her. No single skater has revolutionized the sport all on his/her own and to imply that is ridiculous. Many skaters over history have contributed to the sport and helped revolutionize it. netnuts has made many statements that are out of line . . . thank goodness for the ignore feature! :yes:

 

[rtureck]

Holy Cow.....no one brings out controversy like Sasha.

I've followed figure skating for 40 years and I believe Sasha Cohen is a treasure. I do believe that she influenced figure skating. Many skaters have tried to emulate her lovely posture, grace and flexibility.

I think COP emphasized flexibility and variation of positions, and many skaters are looking at the points reward criteria, and work hard to achieve that, it has nothing to do with Cohen. I believe Zhang is the one who is credit as being the most graceful, and flexibile and (IMO her spins are much better than Cohens). Some fans claim that Zhang is emulating Cohen, Caroline herself never mentioned that Cohen is her role model, in fact Caroline consistently mentions Kwan as her role model. I think Cohen has the ingredients to be a very good show skater. But that is a craft that takes discipline and pain to achieve. Just look at Kristi. Whether Cohen is willing to put in the pain to refine that craft remains to be seen.

e Kwan is an awesome skater whose competitive record has never been matched and probably never will be surpassed. Personally, I don't see Kwan as a skater who skated to all kinds of music. She is a skater who skated to basically classical music throughout her career and showed little versatility. Sure she skated to Field of Gold but with in much the same way she skated to every other piece of music.

This is how I see it.

Dizzy

About versatility, Kwan could use more, but Kwan has skated to very different genre of classical music in her competitive career.

You can't honestly say that the Yellow River Piano concerto is the same as Lyra Angelica concerto for harp.

OTOH, I see Cohen sorely lacks versatility in her (competitive) music choice, had she ever skated to a piece of music that is not listed top 100 pieces of popular classical music? Well duely noted, she skated to R&J in 3 consecutive years, and it is a film score, not classical music. In terms of presentation, Cohen only has 2 dials, loud and louder.

Back on topic, I think Cohen loves to talk about 2010, it generates press. I don't think she will ever take the chance of being beaten at nationals by Zhang, Rachel, Wagner, and Nagasu. She didn't even take the chance to defend an US title in 07.

 

[Medusa]

There is an ignore feature? :scratch:

Where?:think:

Well, as difficult it may be, I think we should stay realistic and objective. Miss Cohen had a certain influence on the sport (if it was positive everyone has to decide for himself) and was a successful and beloved skater. But - as I said before - she wasn't the French Revolution of figure skating - then again, who was? Kwan wasn't either, but I still think she gave more to figure skating. And the statement

She is a skater who skated to basically classical music throughout her career and showed little versatility

seems rather strange to me - and as a big fan of classical music - a bit insulting. Because the last time I checked the expression classical music includes everything written from the middle age till the middle of the 20th century (without Jazz and Blues, these also developped during the first half of the 20th century). Everytime someone skates beautifully and appropriate to classical music I am in awe and impressed.

I love that about Kwan though I am not a big fan of her (women's figure skating not my thing ). There are great programs skated to soundtracks, Musical melodies and modern-electro-pseudo-classics - but if someone can go out there and interpret Rachmaninov (my very favourite), Debussy, Beethoven... with style, great choreography and really gets the music - then I am in love. This year that happened with Abbott - I love his Waltz-program, just amazingly choreographed, he has such a great feeling for the music... (still thinking about writing the USFSA a mail that because of artistic and aesthetic reasons Carriere cannot got to Stockholm).

Someone went so offtopic

 

[museksk8r]

There is an ignore feature? :scratch:

Where?:think:

To put a poster on ignore, you have to click "Members List" at the top of the forum's main page, look up the poster you want to ignore by clicking the first letter of the poster's name. Once you find the poster, click on their username, then click "Add (poster's name) to your Ignore List." Then click the "Save List" Button and the poster will be ignored whenever you are logged into the forum. When you are logged off, their posts are visible. Their posts are also visible whenever another poster quotes what they say, so it's helpful to stay logged in when viewing the forum. Hope that helps! :thumbsup:

This year that happened with Abbott - I love his Waltz-program, just amazingly choreographed, he has such a great feeling for the music... (still thinking about writing the USFSA a mail that because of artistic and aesthetic reasons Carriere cannot got to Stockholm).

Medusa, will you marry me? I agree, Jeremy was so robbed at Nationals! Stephen Carriere should not have received PCS anywhere near Jeremy Abbott. Abbott should be going to Worlds, IMO!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Medusa - Total agree with your retort on classical music. I would hate to think that the music of Beethoven is the same as Glass or Gershwin. Nothing wrong with all three but they are different.

On Speed. There is a difference with being rushed and controlled. There are moments in music when the speed must decrease, but the beat remains.;

On Style. Is the skater going after the audience? or bringing the audience to the skater?

On Innovation. Check out the history of skating. One can only opine which was the greatest gift to figure skating, and I say it was Jackson Haines. Music hath charms that soothes the barrel jumper. That is JMO.

Joe

 

[skatergirl45]

They will both leave their mark on skating. Michelle for her simple beauty across the ice. For her programs as stated above. And............ yes for her Olympic heartbreak. It is amazing how the lady who won 9 US titles will in many people's heart be remembered more for Fields of Gold at the Olympics where she got 3rd. Go figure.
Sasha has left her artistic mark. Her spirals and charlottes are second to none. Her spins and flexibilty were amazing. For a while, she had the highest core EVER in the NJS but then Mao and Yu-Na came along............... lol
Also, sadly Sasha will be remembered as the girl who did not put 2 clean programs together. That is exactly why she should come back. So she can prove to us, her fans that she CAN skate a clean short/long just as we believed she can for SO LONG!

 

[Tinymavy15]

Yep, and she skated the same program to every one of them.

with all due respect to miss Kwan, I have to say that her earlier stuff.. 1996-2001 was one the whole very good, but after that a lot of her programs looked alike. I also have to say that sasha used the same jump layout for the nutcraker, swan lake and romeo and juliet which made them look a little to much alike, but watch her face from rachminoff, malaguena, dark eyes and romeo and juliet. four completely diffrent looks, diffrent expressions emotions and of course she always has a new spiral sequence and WONDERFUL footwork.

They will both leave their mark on skating. Michelle for her simple beauty across the ice. For her programs as stated above. And............ yes for her Olympic heartbreak. It is amazing how the lady who won 9 US titles will in many people's heart be remembered more for Fields of Gold at the Olympics where she got 3rd. Go figure.

What and Sasha's 2006 olympic freeskate wasn't heartbreaking. For me one of the saddest outcomes in skating!

 

[Lonewolf]

I think they both left their impact on the sport. I don't get how any one who puts in the years they have can just be cast aside as any old competitor. Michelle was at the top of her sport for a decade. I can buy a competition here or there the judges "gave" her, but not for a decade. She did make her competitors better-those that beat her soundly HAD to bring a 3/3 and I can think of only one competition where Michelle was pretty clean that she lost (1998 Olympics). During Michelle's reign, 7 triples became the goal for the ladies, and Michelle put forth several 7 triple LPs, and a lot of clean 3/3s, but since they were "only" 3t/3t, people have to dismiss that as an impressive stat. Michelle did popularize the COE spiral, hands behind the back/lowered leg layback. She did a Y-spin on both legs. There have been a lot that Michelle brought to the ice that is being emulated by new skaters every year, to say she didn't revolutionize the sport is being petty.

Sasha took what Nicole did, what Karyn before her did-used her flexibility to highlight her programs. Sasha has great lines, amazing positions, pointed toes, can contort her body in inhumane positions. I did think when COP first came about, the creators had Sasha in mind while thinking up rules for spins and spirals. I am glad in recent years, those rules where ammended so skaters with less flexibility (Yu-Na, Kimmie) can achieve a level 4 spin/spiral without breaking themselves. Mirai, Caroline and others say they idolize Michelle, but I see Sasha's influence in them, which is why they can succeed under COP in regards to spins/spirlas-flexibility maxed.

I wish Sasha had challenged herself more. I think people see her flexibility, fast spinning and choose to ignore she landed one 3/3 in competition (albeight a very tough one) and never had a clean 7 triple program (save the fluff event). But I do feel she left her mark on the sport, and did help revolutionize the sport by popularizing being gumby-like, which helps under COP.

This is well stated. I think every skater impacts the sport at some level. Both Sasha and Michelle impacted the sport in ways that we may never know. Additionally, these two skates may have influenced or inspired some one else, i.e. Caroline Zhang, who has just or will be emerging on the scene and in return they may influence others and the sport even further.

 

[MKFSfan]

with all due respect to miss Kwan, I have to say that her earlier stuff.. 1996-2001 was one the whole very good, but after that a lot of her programs looked alike. I also have to say that sasha used the same jump layout for the nutcraker, swan lake and romeo and juliet which made them look a little to much alike, but watch her face from rachminoff, malaguena, dark eyes and romeo and juliet. four completely diffrent looks, diffrent expressions emotions and of course she always has a new spiral sequence and WONDERFUL footwork.

I agree with you that Michelle's programs from 1996-2001 are her best work, but I disagree that after that, it was same programs, different music. Yes, Sasha's facial expressions changed with her music, but don't tell me Michelle was the same in "The Feeling Begings" as "Tosca." I did see similar themes/emoting between say "Aranjuez" and "Spartacus", and yes, a lot of the spins and jump layout was similar. I think for a skater who lasted over ten years on the Senior level, Michelle did a great job creating different charcters for her programs. And I LOVED how she reinvented herself through her FW sections, beginning in 2003. While I know some of her earlier programs were much more innovative, I loved her programs in 2003-2005, non-stop skating, more speed, and IMO, more emotional connection with her audience. But maybe I began to truly appreciate her as a great skater after 2002.

What and Sasha's 2006 olympic freeskate wasn't heartbreaking. For me one of the saddest outcomes in skating!

While I do agree Sasha's Olympic freeskate was a big letdown, I don't view it as one of the saddest outcomes. How many truly expected otherwise? Michelle's 2002 LP, for me, was very sad, more so than in 1998, because at least she really did have a good competition, it just wasn't meant to be that particular night. I'm glad she at least had her moment. Sasha did have a moment in the SP, a very great moment, but I doubt that is much consolation.

 

[museksk8r]

While I do agree Sasha's Olympic freeskate was a big letdown, I don't view it as one of the saddest outcomes. How many truly expected otherwise?

Exactly! Cohen never skated a clean LP in her competitive career. There was always a pop or some two-footed landings or a hand down or a step out or a fall out or anywhere from 1 to 3 falls . . . she was never flawless in the LP in a non-fluff event. I had never seen her skate an Olympic champion's performance at any point in her career, so my expectations were not high for her to win.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Kwan's programs after 2001 were being tweeked constantly after she had well established choreographers give her wonderful routines, albeit to music we all heard many times before. She was in pain, and had to take out from the choreography anything that ascerbated that pain. Sad but that was the way it was.

Somehow, in 2003 at Worlds, the LP, I don't know who did it but it worked and with that touch of Morozov, got her another Worlds gold medal. It also made Morozov a skating household word. He owes a lot to Kwan for that footwork.

Joe

 

[attyfan]

Kwan's programs after 2001 were being tweeked constantly after she had well established choreographers give her wonderful routines, albeit to music we all heard many times before. She was in pain, and had to take out from the choreography anything that ascertated that pain. Sad but that was they way it was.

Somehow, in 2003 at Worlds, the LP, I don't know who did it but it worked and with that touch of Morozov, got her another Worlds gold medal. It also made Morozov a skating household word. He owes a lot to Kwan for that footwork.

Joe

Wasn't he also involved in choreographing "Tosca"? IMO, that was something special, too -- not only at Nats, but at Worlds, too. After all, how many skaters could do so well after the streaker disruption?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Wasn't he also involved in choreographing "Tosca"? IMO, that was something special, too -- not only at Nats, but at Worlds, too. After all, how many skaters could do so well after the streaker disruption?

Not certain, but I believe Morozov only did the footwork to Concerto de Aranjuez/ I think you are correct, she was so pleased with the footwork that she had went to him to give her a program. It was he who suggested Tosca. (I only think Morozov can deal with standards in the case of music selections.)

Joe

 

[Mathman]

I think the choreographers of the Aranjuez program, aside from the Morozov footwork sequence, were Michelle herself along with her sister and brother in law.

I have always wondered if this was what Michelle had in mind when she abruptly parted company with her choreographer and coach, saying the she wanted "to take control of her own skating."

 

[Fossi]

Sasha only had the highest score in CoP because they were tweaking the system. To compare that score to recent scores is almost laughable.

Sasha had more influence on skaters than Irina and Michelle? Can you name any skaters now that refer to Cohen as their favorite or their role model? Johnny mentions Irina. Most of the young up and comers- some that have defeated Sasha (Kimmie, Mao) list Michelle Kwan. I think that says more than some words on a message board.

 

[goldenpleasures]

Wasn't he also involved in choreographing "Tosca"? IMO, that was something special, too -- not only at Nats, but at Worlds, too. After all, how many skaters could do so well after the streaker disruption?

I didn't find her 'Tosca' program special at all. Choreographically, it was very empty.