The Ups and Downs of the Ladies

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Well, to be fair, it's pretty much impossible to mule kick on a toe-loop given that that would put one on an inside edge and create a counter-rotation. Caroline Zhang can't really mule-kick on edge jumps...
I haven't looked at the others to carefully, so I'm not trying to be mean to Caroline or anything, but I couldn't resist noticing this.Kypma

The counter rotation of a toe loop is called a toe wally and would be considered a wrong edge take off if it rotates beyond one air turn, I believe. Unfortunately, the jump beyond a single does not get any points. Sad because the jump, like its mirror image, the Lutz, has rhythm making it more exciting to see a skater lean in one direction at take off and change the lean to the otherside before landing.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

I believe that the CoP scores a toe Wally as a toe-loop, despite the wrong edge. I don't think there is any "e" deduction for a "wrong edge triple toe loop." If anyone could do a triple toe Wally, they would get 4.0 base value and the jump would count as a triple toe loop for Zayak purposes.

It doesn't really make sense, but I think that's what the current rules say. Someone -- I think it was either GeneKelly or Hockeyfan -- posted that the reason for scoring the toe Wally as a toe-loop was because Elaine Zayak could do both. So the ISU didn't want her to rack up the points by doing 2 toe loops and 2 toe Wallys in the same program.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I believe that the CoP scores a toe Wally as a toe-loop, despite the wrong edge. I don't think there is any "e" deduction for a "wrong edge triple toe loop." If anyone could do a triple toe Wally, they would get 4.0 base value and the jump would count as a triple toe loop for Zayak purposes.

Are you sure of this. The Toe Wally isn't anything new. It was used in many competition from way back. And from previous posts, it is not listed as one of the jumps to be scored but may be used in footwork.

I was referring to a toe wally not a toe loop. They are two different jumps, and have been for years. If someone toed off on a back inside edge and did multiple turns from the counter rotation position, that is a Toe Wally (without the toe-off, it is a Wally and has been for years and years.)

My point was that if one accidently (no intention of doing a wally) was on a back inside edge, it would be considered a wrong edge takeoff for a toe loop, I believe, but I don't think anyone has done this. Have you ever seen an"e" against a toe loop? It would be a toeloop yes, the same way a flip is not the result of a wrong edge lutz.

btw, where did you see a base value of 4.0 for a jump that is unscoreable?

The Revisionisms that is going on with these new would be figure skating pundits is off the wall.

Also btw, what exactly do the rules say about a wally or toewally nowadays?

Joe

 

[Mathman]

No, I am not 100% sure that this is right (and in the interest of sports purity I hope I am wrong). But I think that the ISU in it's wisdom scores it like this.

If you take off from back outside edge and land on the back outside egde of the same foot, that is scored on the protocols as a toe-loop (4.0 base points).

If you take off from a back inside edge and land on the back outside edge of the same foot (a toe Wally), that is also scored on the protocols as a toe-loop (4.0 base points, no "e").

Like I say, I hope I am wrong. But this is what I remember from the last time this discussion came up. I thought it was pretty weird then, and I think it is pretty weird now. In practice, though, I don't think the question ever occurs because no one does a triple toe Wally anyway.

I tried to search the ISU web site to see if I could find the exact rule, but the ISU does not exactly advertise its definitions, rules and instructions to technical specialists.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

No, I am not 100% sure that this is right (and in the interest of sports purity I hope I am wrong). But I think that the ISU in it's wisdom scores it like this.

If you take off from back outside edge and land on the back outside egde of the same foot, that is scored on the protocols as a toe-loop (4.0 base points).

If you take off from a back inside edge and land on the back outside edge of the same foot (a toe Wally), that is also scored on the protocols as a toe-loop (4.0 base points, no "e").

Like I say, I hope I am wrong. But this is what I remember from the last time this discussion came up. I thought it was pretty weird then, and I think it is pretty weird now. In practice, though, I don't think the question ever occurs because no one does a triple toe Wally anyway.

I tried to search the ISU web site to see if I could find the exact rule, but the ISU does not exactly advertise its definitions, rules and instructions to technical specialists.

Many posters do not go by definitions but insist the 'attempt' is all powerful to override a definition. That's their view and it will never be mine.

A Wally or a Toe Wally takes off on a back inside edge. I can't believe a skater would do that as an attempt to do a Loop or Toe Loop, that latters being sooo much easier. However accidents do happen and a skater may well be off balance for other reasons and may try to include the Loop as it was laid out in his program plan. In which case I presume an "e" would be issued against the attempted Loop since a Wally or Toe Wally are not awarded points with more than one air turn so the score for a loop or toe loop would be awarded the base value but with the appropriate deductions.

I think we both agree with this.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

Many posters do not go by definitions but insist the 'attempt' is all powerful to override a definition. That's their view and it will never be mine.

... In which case I presume an "e" would be issued against the attempted Loop...

Now I am confused. Are we talking about what Internet posters think, or about the ISU rules?

According to the ISU rules (don't blame me, I am not the ISU ), an "e" can be issued only for a Lutz or flip. Here is the rule (page 1, paragraph 4).

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-183415-200633-121139-0-file,00.pdf

 

[bubbleyum]

up

well, one of the "ups" of this competition was all the fan love!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=pCZ-Bl3FJCI&feature=related