The Case for Handwork: Balancing Art and Sport in Figure Skating

[4everchan]

Because one meets the criteria to be an olympic sport and the other does not. Not being an art is not listed among these criteria

Nice try

 

[Magill]

For competitive skating, I would say that the primary purpose is to demonstrate ability to use the body to direct the movement of blades on the ice. Oh and by the way, it is possible and adds value when that is done expressively, entertainingly, communicatively. But that's extra, whereas the techniques of controlling the blades are fundamental.

So are you saying that TES is fundamental and PCS - or certain categories of PCS - are just "BTW, possible and adding value"? Generally welcome but not that important and only of accompanying, secondary nature? Cause you know, it seems many judges actually do share this opinion but AFAIK it is not exactly what the rules say And it seems it is at the heart of many discussions and complaints.

 

[Magill]

Nice try

Thank you, thank you, thank for your appreciation, it means a lot to me. Bow, bow... But you know, if you have no other answer to this, it means it was not just a nice try but the correct answer

 

[4everchan]

Thank you, thank you, thank for your appreciation, it means a lot to me. Bow, bow... But you know, if you have no other answer to this, it means it was not just a nice try but the correct answer

Glad my words moved you. I have plenty of answers for this, they are all in this thread and the other recent ones about components.. I was interested in your answer to the question. But it's okay

 

[Magill]

Glad my words moved you. I have plenty of answers for this, they are all in this thread. I was interested in your answer to the question. But it's okay

But it seems many of your answers provided in this thread do not stand against the definition of what "performing art" really is. But it's okay
BTW, I can see you have changed your avatar. Back to Patrick, I guess (cause in this tiny pic I cannot really see). Right?

 

[4everchan]

But it seems many of your answers provided in this thread do not stand against the definition of what "performing art" really is. But it's okay

Yeah, as a professional performing artist, I have no idea what I am talking about when I talk about performing art. It is extremely sad, isn't it? And the avatar change was done months ago...

 

[Magill]

Yeah, as a professional performing artist, I have no idea what I am talking about when I talk about performing art. It is extremely sad, isn't it?

Oh, no. For all I know, many artists are really bad when it comes to dealing with definitions and other mundane stuff, it is just a different mindset BTW, being a pianist does not make you an expert on all other performing arts.
Good night.

 

[4everchan]

Oh, no. For all I know, many artists are really bad when it comes to dealing with definitions and other mundane stuff, it is just a different mindset

Again, a generalization about what artists can or cannot do ?

BTW, being a pianist does not make you an expert on all other performing arts.

First, I have the utmost respect for anyone who has chosen a path requiring such dedication, whether they are artists or athletes. As a musician, I know that I know very little if nothing about other people's specialties because I have spent and still spend my life to become a better musician. I have mentioned that as well in one of the two threads. I never claimed I was an expert on all performing arts... I also made clear that I am not a figure skater. I defer to other people's extensive knowledge for a lot of the specifics about skating.

(At the same time, when growing up in arts school and conservatories etc, we are often with students from other disciplines, not always, not in all schools. There are some conservatories that only do music, others are more "fine arts" schools and include other genres. So, no, I am not an expert on visual arts, but I have spent a lot of time with some visual artists (and actors for instance) when growing up. Does that matter? Not really. I am just saying that often artists evolve in the cultural milieu and go to exhibits, concerts, plays etc. My teacher would make us go to the museum at least 3-4 times per year. Many develop a desire for all art. Meeting my friends from high school recently, finance, doctors, bankers, school teachers etc... we all grew up very differently. In any case, that's besides the point.)


I have provided many arguments in both threads, talked about subjectivity and objectivity, talked about technique, what sport is, why it's important that figure skating remains seen primarily as a sport, and to do so, how I believe that technology may help judging some aspects of the sport, etc So I am not sure why you are saying all of what you are saying... but that's okay... I have thick skin.

Other posters brought the semantics game in here... someone even discussed the term used when I am hired to evaluate exams as if they had written my contract you know??? In the end, it gets heavy and though I am all fine and all, there is no need to make it so personal.

Have a good night too.

 

[Mathman]

So are you saying that TES is fundamental and PCS - or certain categories of PCS - are just "BTW, possible and adding value"? Generally welcome but not that important and only of accompanying, secondary nature? Cause you know, it seems many judges actually do share this opinion but AFAIK it is not exactly what the rules say And it seems it is at the heart of many discussions and complaints.

I quite agree that this is the crux of the matter. "it's not what the rules say" ... but humanly speaking, I think it is inevitable that a judge (or rather a tech specialist) will say, "As God is my witness, this skater did a triple loop and gets 4.90 points!"

When it comes to, was this guy's flamenco-inspired presentation more flemenko-ish than that guy's hip hop was hiphop-ish -- well, I could forgive a judge who is reluctant to let that be the deciding consideration as to who wins the gold medal. (Unless, of cpourse, we are talking about Stephen Lambiel's Poeta.)

 

[TallyT]

Yeah, as a professional performing artist, I have no idea what I am talking about when I talk about performing art. It is extremely sad, isn't it? And the avatar change was done months ago...

That's no comeback, honestly, many wildly successful performers have no idea! (Witness the bunfights in those fields.) And saying skating is in the Olympics and dance isn't (though ice dance is, of course, some have no idea why) doesn't work either since a lot of utterly sporty sports are for one reason or another out of the Olympics and as I understand it they are fighting to get breakdancing in. And this has really gotten off the rails, my fault for bringing the word 'performance' in and my only excuse is it was appallingly early in the morning.

Ahem {clears throat and hopefully brain}

Sport, I think inarguably, is above all a type of entertainment, that's really its only purpose for spectators at least. Anything more specific than that is totally arguable. (Is a tennis exhibition match sport? Is 'artistic' skateboarding? Handball? Elastics? What about videogames based on sport?) Same with art. Now, it's a sport that does have an integral art element - otherwise we could just line 'em up and go "show us these 3 quads in this order.... now these five triples... now a step sequence exactly like everyone else's so here's the exact steps... no no music, here's a metronome... whaddyamean it's booooooring?"

The original article seems to me to be one small salvo in an acknowledgement that figure skating at least, when too much emphasis is on the sport/technical side, is not really as good as entertainment. In which case, it fails its main and ultimate audience purpose. He fudges it badly, but he's got a point.

 

[4everchan]

honestly, many wildly successful performers have no idea!

If you say so. I wouldn't agree to this.

 

[Mathman]

Other posters brought the semantics game in here... someone even discussed the term used when I am hired to evaluate exams as if they had written my contract you know?

I think that you mis understood that poster's intent. He/she was only saying that it is a good idea to hire professional evaluators like yourself to test students, rather than to have this done by local coaches and teachers who might have a personal bias in promoting their protoges over others.

Many other "semantic" posts -- for instance mine, were merley to point out the difficulties in coming up with an all-encomp[assing one-size-fits-all definition of so rich a concept as "art."

 

[4everchan]

I think that you mis understood that poster's intent. He/she was only saying that it is a good idea to hire professional evaluators like yourself to test students, rather than to have this done by local coaches and teachers who might have a personal bias in promoting their protoges over others.

They explained afterwards that there was a misunderstanding, I was pointing it out for emphasis on how people are sometimes even willing to argue about the colour of your eyes or the name of your grandma

Many other "semantic" posts -- for instance mine, were merley to point out the difficulties in coming up with an all-encomp[assing one-size-fits-all definition of so rich a concept as "art."

Got that. It may have been a wise idea to simply say that instead of the number of dictionary definitions, including one referring to art as the art of making friends. I guess, considering this thread, I am a very bad artist

 

[gkelly]

So are you saying that TES is fundamental and PCS - or certain categories of PCS - are just "BTW, possible and adding value"? Generally welcome but not that important and only of accompanying, secondary nature?

Essentially yes, that is what I'm saying.

You can have skating with or without art, but if you have art without skating it doesn't belong in a skating competition.

I will say that ice dance is an exception, in that the fundamental point is to express the music through skating skills. So the use of the music is essential there. Whether it necessarily qualifies as "art" depends how you define that term.

Sport, I think inarguably, is above all a type of entertainment, that's really its only purpose for spectators at least.

So everyone who goes out and participates in athletic activities and contests with no spectators is not doing sport?

They may be entertaining themselves by playing/competing, but that's a different kind of entertainment.

 

[TallyT]

Many other "semantic" posts -- for instance mine, were merley to point out the difficulties in coming up with an all-encomp[assing one-size-fits-all definition of so rich a concept as "art."

Definitions are devilish hard. Both sport and art are very very malleable terms.

 

[Mathman]

(Witness the bunfights in those fields.

I love this site!

So I thought that this term nust refer to silly hair-pulling fights between bunheaded ballerinas.

But no, I looked it up. and found out that it means when a fight breaks out in a tea party as people try to grab up all the buns and pastries from each other. Soon everyone is hot and cross.

 

[TallyT]

So everyone who goes out and participates in athletic activities and contests with no spectators is not doing sport?

They may be entertaining themselves by playing/competing, but that's a different kind of entertainment.

No, that's why I said 'for spectators at least'. For participants there may also be a health and fitness element, but we can agree that they for the most part do and barring doctor's orders pick a sport they find personally entertaining/fun in some way to do.

 

[el henry]

Isn't breakdancing making its debut as an Olympic sport in Paris?

And is it not a performing art?

 

[Mathman]

So everyone who goes out and participates in athletic activities and contests with no spectators is not doing sport?

I think it would be better to say that all sport falls into the economic classification Recreation and Entertainment. (What else? It's not agriculture, it's not manufactiruing and mining, it's not banking and financial ser5vices.) If you skate for excerise and pleasure, that's recreation. If you skate to entertain paying spectaors, that's -- well -- entertainment.

Historically this distinction was muddied by the bizarre classist notion that "amateurism" is good and making money -- oh yuck, how low class can you get -- is bad.

 

[TallyT]

I think it would be better to say that all sport falls into the economic classification Recreation and Entertainment. (What else? It's not agriculture, it's not manufactiruing and mining, it's not banking and financial ser5vices.) If you skate for excerise and pleasure, that's recreation. If you skate to entertain paying spectaors, that's -- well -- entertainment.

Historically this distinction was muddied by the bizarre classist notion that "amateurism" is good and making money -- oh yuck, how low class can you get -- is bad.

Recreation is a good word for what I was trying and failing to say in my last post, thank you.

When googling, I found this old (2012!) post about some of then then applicants for Olympic sport standing...

Olympic dreams: Six unlikely sports vying to make it to the Games

Pole dancing, sheep shearing and yoga among the sports which have lobbied unsuccessfully to get into the Olympics

www.cbsnews.com