Who will be the 2 US Ladies for next year's Worlds?

[sillylionlove]

how come the host country does not get a third spot at the world championships like they do at the grand prix stops?

 

[R.D.]

PB- I agree, there seems to be a double standard which I choose not to take part in. Let's send the two to L.A. and hope they place well enough to get 3 back for the Oly's. That's all the American fan can do at this point.

 

[enlight78]

To me, it is not so clear that this would help the U.S. ladies. At the moment, thr pre-season rankings have only one U.S. lady in the top six. Caroline Zhang is a scant 12 points ahead of Sarah Meier for sixth place.

True

That could change -- for better or for worse -- after the Grand Prix, of course.Oh, I disagree completely. All competition is fair as long as they skate on the same ice and under the same rules. If you are an up-and-comer and you want to make the world team, you have to knock out whoever is above you --

yes since everyon play by the same rule it is technically fair.
I was thinking along the lines it was unfair for the sixth(Zhang), eighth(kimmie),twelfth(Wagner),fifteenth(mirai), & eighteenth(flatt) rank skaters in the world should be forced to take each other out before the main event. All this skill fighting for two spots. It's redicules.ISU is actually shooting themselves in the foot. For the best competion tune into the GP and Nationals but you won't see at the main event, Worlds.( I'm exaggerating of course. I hope you get my point though.

 

[Skye]

For the best competion tune into the GP and Nationals but you won't see at the main event, Worlds.( I'm exaggerating of course. I hope you get my point though.

There were lots of people arguing that possibly the best skater in the world was denied her chance at Turino, but I just love the fact that had there been any tweaking of rules, the eventual gold medalist might not have even made it there. And the irony when that potential best skater in the world loses to yet another phenom only a month later! I doubt the world cares whether one more American can or cannot compete at Worlds next year, just as the US didn't mind at all when the current No.1 and No.2 ladies couldn't go to the Olympics.

 

[Medusa]

I doubt the world cares whether one more American can or cannot compete at Worlds next year

Yup, I don't care even the tiniest bit. We had a very good discussion about this at the beginning of this season, before anybody even thought of the possiblity that there might be only 2 spots in L.A. for the American ladies - and I enjoy these conversations if there is no obvious patriotism behind them. But here it is a very subjective and biased discussion - nobody would care if e.g. the Japanese were the ones with the pool of talented eligible ladies. And very few people would complain about Asada's jump content of Axels, Loops and Flips if she was from the US and not from Japan.

And aren't the rules similar in other sports too? I am sure that there is enough talent among the US-sprinters to fill at least half of the final in the 100m at Bejing, there are enough female Chinese weight lifters to claim nearly every medal, there is a huge talent pool for the 5000/10000m and Marathon in Ethopia and Kenya - but you always have the slow and inferior European and American runners take part in the races too.

And I don't think that's a bad policy - think about guys like Ato Boldon (Trinidad and Tobago), in his early years he wasn't a top sprinter - but the fact that he was allowed to compete in Barcelona (didn't make the second round) perhaps encouraged him to become a better sprinter, he won medals in Atlanta and by 2001 T&T suddenly had a relay team that was able to win a silver at Worlds.

Think about Verner who skated in senior competitions for years and years - without winning anything (and probably "stealing" a place from a "better" skater somewhere in Japan, Russia or the US) - but by 2008, European Champion!

And in figure skating this rule also increases the diversity.

Look at the choreographers of these US-skaters: Lori Nichol and Tom Dickson are listed for Zhang and Flatt, Lori Nichol again for Nagasu and Meissner - only Wagner has another choreographer. Skaters from other countries have their own teams, sometimes their own choreographers, another approach - the best example is Lambiel, who doesn't use the most famous choreographers but sticks to his own team and developed his freeskate together with a flamenco dancer. I think that the fact that skaters from smaller countries are given a chance increases the diversity - and come on, lot's of people love the Kerrs (we never would have had that great OD if they hadn't been allowed to "steal" a place from a "better" pair some time ago) and lot's of people love Lambiel's programs!

 

[ManyCairns]

This one's tough for me because I can actually see a bit of appeal for inviting the top x number of skaters to Worlds regardless of nationality, then having x number of spots above and beyond that to make sure all federations are represented. Since many of the countries would already have their skaters qualified by virtue of their rankings, there would be at least some spots left over for countries to have at least one invitation. But that might not work because there might be too many entries to make it feasible. (& I know we've talked about this on other threads.)

The reason that appeals to me is because, if, say, the Japanese lady #4 is far better than, say, MadeUpCountry's #1, I'd rather as a fan watch Japanese #4. Esp if J#4 is in the top 20. I'm sorry to miss seeing J#4 even if her teammates are 1,2, and 3, and that's why she couldn't come.

Olys, though, were at least originally conceived for amateur competitors from many, many different sports and from all over the world to come together in an international showing of talent and to exemplify de Coubertin's ideals that "fighting well" and teamwork are at least as important as winning. Therefore, keep Olys as they are.

But Worlds in FS are designed to find and reward the best skater in the World, regardless of nationality -- more so than to provide an international exhibition of talent. To me that's a distinction between the World Championships in an individual sport and the Olympic Games, at least in original conception and at least as I understand it.

But I don't feel particularly strongly about it. I'm sorry if we have potential top 10 finishers sitting at home because there are only 2 spots, but so be it. As many have said, they have to knock off the competition wherever they meet it in order to advance.

 

[alicelouise]

Skaters at Worlds

As one poster had said on a thread long ago and far away; the ISU serves the interests of national federations, not individual skaters. I have no problem with the age limit. I have a problem with the # of skaters per country. The Grand Prix should be set up as qualification for the Worlds/Olys. Any country's skater that doesn't qualify can be sent to Worlds by the respective federation. The SP can serve as the elimination round.

 

[enlight78]

If you actually think about it the current rules don't support the federations or show any desire for the increase figure skating popularity at all.Most federations goals are to help many talented skaters to develope as possible(not just three). If figure skating actually does get popular, more kids will skate and the talent field will increase. What if the womens field had about 21medal contenders.Lets say they com from 7 different federartions, three each. I think at most only 4 defferent feds can get three spots. I believe there are many things wrong(not just the three per fed limit) with way skaters qaulify for worlds. It should have change soon after we switch to COP; I only talking about the world championships not Olympics.

 

[enlight78]

Actually all I want is one competition a year that has the top ranking skaters face off. It doesn't have to be worlds, there can be a new event created. Because right now we have a
modified round robin tornament(GP),
mini -Olympic europe, European Championships
mini-Olympic americas/asia/pacific 4CC
mini-Olympic six continent Worlds
New mini-Olympic team event(coming soon),
but no competition whats so ever were the best skaters(period) are rounded up for the ultimate last skater skating. Or maybe figure skating is doom to only be an OLYMPIC sport.

 

[chuckm]

The Grand Prix should be set up as qualification for the Worlds/Olys. Any country's skater that doesn't qualify can be sent to Worlds by the respective federation. The SP can serve as the elimination round.

The Grand Prix is an INVITATIONAL series. To use it as a 'qualifier' would be extremely unfair for skaters from countries that are not hosts.

 

[PolymerBob]

I remember somebody suggesting that Four Continents and Europeans be used as a qualification for the World Championship. That would allow the best skaters to get to Worlds, but the skaters from Zimbabwe and Ghana would not get to attend. It that fair? Well, that's a debate in and of itself.

 

[chuckm]

But Euros and 4CC are far from equal. 34 federations were represented at Euros, but only 16 at 4CC. Skaters from many countries wouldn't qualify at Euros, while most skaters would at 4CC.

Many European posters on this and other boards have complained that low-ranked 4CC skaters rank higher on the ISU list because it isn't that hard to finish in the top 18 at 4CC in singles, and in the top 10 in Pairs and Dance.

For example, Aganina/Zobnin finished 9th at 4CC in Pairs and got 362 ISU points while earning a total score of 93.77; Piatkowska/Khromin, who ranked 9th at Euros, scored 112.96 points. If A/Z had skated at Euros, they would have finished 14th.

In Ice Dance, O'Brien/Merriman placed 10th and got 325 ISU points with a total score of 121.86; at Euros, Fraser/Lukanin placed 10th with a total score of 168.87. At Euros, O/B would have placed 22nd.

 

[enlight78]

But Euros and 4CC are far from equal. 34 federations were represented at Euros, but only 16 at 4CC. Skaters from many countries wouldn't qualify at Euros, while most skaters would at 4CC.

Many European posters on this and other boards have complained that low-ranked 4CC skaters rank higher on the ISU list because it isn't that hard to finish in the top 18 at 4CC in singles, and in the top 10 in Pairs and Dance.

For example, Aganina/Zobnin finished 9th at 4CC in Pairs and got 362 ISU points while earning a total score of 93.77; Piatkowska/Khromin, who ranked 9th at Euros, scored 112.96 points. If A/Z had skated at Euros, they would have finished 14th.

In Ice Dance, O'Brien/Merriman placed 10th and got 325 ISU points with a total score of 121.86; at Euros, Fraser/Lukanin placed 10th with a total score of 168.87. At Euros, O/B would have placed 22nd.

I think it depends if qualifications from 4CC and Europeans was based on point totals or placements. If the same judges and tech pannel could be placed at both events it would make the comparison better. Personally I wouldn't wont to use 4cc or Europeans because they have the three skater per fed limit also. Great skaters still will be left home.

 

[PolymerBob]

But Euros and 4CC are far from equal. 34 federations were represented at Euros, but only 16 at 4CC. Skaters from many countries wouldn't qualify at Euros, while most skaters would at 4CC.

Are the two competitions equal? They are in the minds of the ISU. Only 16 federations went to 4CC, but 22 COULD have gone. Right now, most of the world thinks the 4CC is just a cheese fest before the World Championship. But if it was a World Championship qualifier, it would turn into a major competition. In fact, the current rule that all federations can send 3 entries to each event would have to be changed.

 

[antmanb]

Are the two competitions equal? They are in the minds of the ISU. Only 16 federations went to 4CC, but 22 COULD have gone. Right now, most of the world thinks the 4CC is just a cheese fest before the World Championship. But if it was a World Championship qualifier, it would turn into a major competition. In fact, the current rule that all federations can send 3 entries to each event would have to be changed.

I don't think there is a rule saying that all fed can send three skaters to 4CC or Europeans. At Europeans the same rule about the number of skaters a fed can send applies as that at worlds.

 

[gkelly]

I don't think there is a rule saying that all fed can send three skaters to 4CC or Europeans. At Europeans the same rule about the number of skaters a fed can send applies as that at worlds.

Four Continents is different from other ISU championships in that it does allow up to 3 entries in all disciplines from all the participating countries.

For example, in 2008 Mexico and South Africa both had three ladies competing but would not even have qualified two based on 2007 results under the point system used for the other championships.

I suspect that this rule won't change until enough non-European countries join the ISU and start sending full teams to 4Cs that the fields there become larger than the fields at Europeans.

 

[Medusa]

175. FINLAND, Figure
Rule 378 add new para 4 and renumber current para 4
4. Each Member has the right to apply for one additional ‘wild card’ entry for each category in the World
Championships for a skater/pair/couple placed among the 6 best in the immediately preceding European or Four
Continents Championships. The application must be submitted to the Sports Director immediately after the applicable
regional Championships. The Sports Director and the Vice President will make a decision at the latest 7 days prior to
the closing of the entries for the World Championships.
Reason: It is in the interest of the ISU to have as high a standard as possible in the World Championships.

Look what I found in the Agenda of the next Council meeting - apparently Finland is planning to send a third lady to Worlds. They often have good placements at Europeans - but just two spots at Worlds. If this proposal is accepted they could nominate 2 for Worlds and try to get a third spot through this Wildcard. Let's say Korpi isn't good at Euros, places just 8th. Then they nominate Korpi and Lepistö for Worlds and Vahamaa (who placed, let's say 4th at Europeans) gets a Wildcard.

 

[dorispulaski]

So presumably, the US could try the same trick at 4C's!

 

[Mathman]

Mao Asada could place as low as sixth at Four Continents and secure a fourth lady for Japan. (Hope it's Fumie! )

I see there are 403 proposals on the agenda. I wonder how many of them will actually come up for a vote at the Congress.

 

[mskater93]

I don't think they would allow a fourth skater from a nation. Just a feeling here...