Scoring bias at the national level

[4everchan]

And I know several who are the non-skating parents of former skaters, who just got in the habit of volunteering for tasks to keep busy while at the rink anyway, and ended up settling into training as competition judges.

Sure. I wonder how many of these are ISU level judges or just domestic.

 

[Magill]

Yes and no. A former skater may have received funding from their federation all their lives and of course, represented that federation. They may no longer be "hired" by them but they may have a sense of "gratitude" towards their federation.

True. They may, they may not. Still it is different from the current and ongoing financial dependency on your employer who can just fire you here and now.

 

[4everchan]

True. They may, they may not. Still it is different from the current and ongoing financial dependency on your employer who can just fire you here and now.

We are talking about conflict of interest and appearance of conflict of interest. Of course, there are various levels of "dependency" but in the end, it remains a gray zone and there is no escaping that fact.

The reality is that there is a need to trust those who are judging because most of them, if not all of them, sit somewhere on that gray scale. So the ISU needs to keep monitoring these judges, like they just did with this American judge responsible for an eleven page thread and they probably should aim at getting even stronger mechanisms.

 

[Magill]

We are talking about conflict of interest and appearance of conflict of interest. Of course, there are various levels of "dependency" but in the end, it remains a gray zone and there is no escaping that fact.

That's why I believe the best way would be institutional separation of the judging pillar (including tech specialists ) from the federation pillar. I think it is the way it works at least in some sports. Of course, it requires political will and financial decisions.
I do not think you can get rid of CoI and bias completely but at least you can move more and more into this direction by limiting financial and institutional dependencies and ties, and making exclusion rules as to who can and cannot sit on the panel in what circumstances, like the exclusion of 5 highest placing countries from previous years etc. I do not think impossibility of reaching perfection is an excuse not to seek improvement.

 

[Diana Delafield]

Sure. I wonder how many of these are ISU level judges or just domestic.

Couldn't tell you, but probably just domestic. Now, at any rate, with their skater kids retired and off living their own lives doing something else.

 

[4everchan]

That's why I believe the best way would be institutional separation of the judging pillar (including tech specialists ) from the federation pillar. I think it is the way it works at least in some sports. Of course, it requires political will and financial decisions.
I do not think you can get rid of CoI and bias completely but at least you can move more and more into this direction by limiting financial and institutional dependencies and ties, and making exclusion rules as to who can and cannot sit on the panel in what circumstances, like the exclusion of 5 highest placing countries from previous years etc. I do not think impossibility of reaching perfection is an excuse not to seek improvement.

I have mentioned that a few times in the past too. The ISU could train their own officials and create steady jobs for these folks. I think the ISU just loves the tradition too much : seeing a flag with the judge's name like in 6.0 competitions.

In any case, I find it funny Leanna Caron was brought up considering Lakernik was the Tech Controller for the very controversial women event in Sochi... Of course, Lakernik wasn't the Russian Fed president, but I have a few doubts that he wasn't deeply involved in Russian skating himself perhaps even moreso than president Caron.

 

[Magill]

I have mentioned that a few times in the past too. The ISU could train their own officials and create steady jobs for these folks. I think the ISU just loves the tradition too much : seeing a flag with the judge's name like in 6.0 competitions.

In any case, I find it funny Leanna Caron was brought up considering Lakernik was the Tech Controller for the very controversial women event in Sochi... Of course, Lakernik wasn't the Russian Fed president, but I have a few doubts that he wasn't deeply involved in Russian skating himself perhaps even moreso than president Caron.

Actually Lakernik was the vice-president of Rusfed when sitting on the panel in Sochi.... I was also surprised they responded so strong to the Canadian fed president case and not at all to Lakernik on the Agnelina vs Yuna panel.

 

[4everchan]

Actually Lakernik was the vice-president of Rusfed when sitting on the panel in Sochi.... I was also surprised they responded so strong to the Canadian fed president case and not at all to Lakernik on the Agnelina vs Yuna panel.

Especially with the games being in Russia.

 

[Magill]

Especially with the games being in Russia.

That's right!

 

[Mathman]

No money? Then you need to find some.

Good advice for life in general.

 

[Magill]

Good advice for life in general.

Yeah, isn't it?

 

[gkelly]

I can't speak for all federations, but in the US at least, the president of US Figure Skating and other members of the Board of Directors are volunteers, not paid employees.

That's different from headquarters staff, who may or may not have been figure skaters themselves or might come from a background in sports management focusing on other sports before getting hired for the office Colorado Springs.

Local club officers are also volunteers.

Skating started out as an amateur sport and even though some top skaters can now earn a good living through the sport, for almost everyone involved it is still an amateur endeavor. That includes the officials and the leaders of most federations.

I have mentioned that a few times in the past too. The ISU could train their own officials and create steady jobs for these folks.

I'm curious how this might work. Care to start a separate thread to brainstorm the hypothetical?

 

[Andrea82]

I bet many of the judges are former skaters too ...

I checked Italian domestic (national level) judges to look at how many have been skaters. I focused on national judges because they are younger than the international ones on average and membership archives on Italian Fed website don't go too far behind. National judges are the potential candidates for future international judges anyway.
Italy have 13 national judges for Single and Pairs. 1 is a former ISU judge who is too old (over 70) to serve at internationally level.
Out of the 12 remaining judges, 6 had been Fed card-members as athletes at some point. At different levels, some never went beyond the novice category.
Looking at regional Single and Pairs judges in Italy, 5 out of 7 have been card-carrying members as athletes.

 

[Andrea82]

I can't speak for all federations, but in the US at least, the president of US Figure Skating and other members of the Board of Directors are volunteers, not paid employees.

The president of Italian Ice Federation (he comes from Hockey as all ice sports are rolled together into a single federation) gets 36.000 euros of gross yearly salary (30.950 after deducing pension contributions).
Members of the federal board don't take anything.

 

[4everchan]

I'm curious how this might work. Care to start a separate thread to brainstorm the hypothetical?

Am I imagining things or did we brainstorm intensively on this topic a few seasons ago ?

 

[Mathman]

Am I imagining things or did we brainstorm intensively on this topic a few seasons ago ?

It (trying to separate judges from dependence on national feserartions and tightening the hand of the ISU) has been discussed periodically on Golden Skate and other skating forums as far back as I can remember, back into the 6.0 days. The devil of course, is in the details.

 

[4everchan]

It (trying to separate judges from dependence on national feserartions and tightening the hand of the ISU) has been discussed periodically on Golden Skate and other skating forums as far back as I can remember, back into the 6.0 days. The devil of course, is in the details.

I was specifically referring to the proposal that ISU would hire and train permanent judges responding to the ISU and not federations... but of course, I am sure that this is a topic that comes up every Xmas. I seem to recall a very elaborate discussion, relatively recent

 

[gkelly]

I was specifically referring to the proposal that ISU would hire and train permanent judges responding to the ISU and not federations... but of course, I am sure that this is a topic that comes up every Xmas. I seem to recall a very elaborate discussion, relatively recent

I'm sure we have discussed it but I can't find a dedicated thread on the topic.

 

[4everchan]

I'm sure we have discussed it but I can't find a dedicated thread on the topic.

I started the thread for those interested .

 

[Skating91]

I think that there is a tendency for federations to shower points on their national champion before sending her/him/them off to worlds. If the skater won anyway, let's start the hype early to give her a reputation boost (or at least to keep pace with the national champions of other countries that are doing the same thing.)

In any other sport this would be identified as corruption. Systemic corruption indicating every official is in on the ruse.

So it helps the confidence of the number one skater, but what about the other skaters they send to world's? They go to world's with their confidence shattered.