Kamila Valieva: Anti-doping Case and Follow-ups

[4everchan]

Some of you guys forget one very important thing.

Nobody can really tell what would have happened if the test results had come in early.

Let's say the test comes out very quickly.
WADA, IOC and ISU most likely are apprised of the situation.. Even if the media is not aware because KV may have been protected.

Let's imagine another scenario : IOC WADA and ISU get furious about the doping of a child. They decide that ROC will no take part in the team event. Or even worse, ROC will not take part in figure skating at all. After all, perhaps the IOC doesn't think it's smart to invite other athletes who share the same entourage at the games. Perhaps there would be a true inquiry on the entourage right away. Let's not forget that Russia has enough of a state-sponsored doping history to the point that they do not compete under Russia but ROC.
Perhaps that would have been a wake-up call for the IOC to give them a time-out.


For those who want to entertain scenarios of victory without KV because there is a depth of talent in Russia, well, one never knows what would have truly happened... Mental preparation is huge. The scandal may have been kept away from media but may have caused a distraction on the other skaters. Who knows if they would have managed to perform so well under those circumstances... especially without their star.

There is more than one scenario possible here... More than, just sub in Anna and Sasha and the gold is still ours.

I am not into fan fiction. But if you are all willing to imagine a "what if the lab" scenario, please know that there is more than one course it could have taken.

Waiting for all the emojis this posts will get me... especially the laughing ones.

 

[el henry]

Well, if RUSADA and RusFed hadn't engaged in the cheating requiring the use of an outside lab, an outside lab would not have been involved.

So let's trace any unsupported conspiracy theories back to the entities truly responsible:

RUSADA and RusFed.

To use a sexist term, when will RUSADA and RusFed "man up" and take responsibility?

(ETA: and yes, I know I'm a broken record, but so are the excuses. )

 

[beachmouse]

Alternately, an early return of a positive test would have given RUSFED time to come up with a plausible story explaining the doping positive that came down to cross-contamination and did not involve cake or water glasses or lip balm or whatever, given her a probationary sanction because of her age and because it was ‘accidental’ and then buried the report as national federations can sometimes do (see:China and Sun Yang, Spain a while back, etc.)

And then sent her out to skate, where she may have been a little wobblier than usual but would have still been a lock for multiple medals.

 

[Arwen17]

Some of you guys forget one very important thing.

Nobody can really tell what would have happened if the test results had come in early.

Let's say the test comes out very quickly.
WADA, IOC and ISU most likely are apprised of the situation.. Even if the media is not aware because KV may have been protected.

Let's imagine another scenario : IOC WADA and ISU get furious about the doping of a child. They decide that ROC will no take part in the team event. Or even worse, ROC will not take part in figure skating at all. After all, perhaps the IOC doesn't think it's smart to invite other athletes who share the same entourage at the games. Perhaps there would be a true inquiry on the entourage right away. Let's not forget that Russia has enough of a state-sponsored doping history to the point that they do not compete under Russia but ROC.
Perhaps that would have been a wake-up call for the IOC to give them a time-out.


For those who want to entertain scenarios of victory without KV because there is a depth of talent in Russia, well, one never knows what would have truly happened... Mental preparation is huge. The scandal may have been kept away from media but may have caused a distraction on the other skaters. Who knows if they would have managed to perform so well under those circumstances... especially without their star.

There is more than one scenario possible here... More than, just sub in Anna and Sasha and the gold is still ours.

I am not into fan fiction. But if you are all willing to imagine a "what if the lab" scenario, please know that there is more than one course it could have taken.

Waiting for all the emojis this posts will get me... especially the laughing ones.

I doubt any of that would have happened. You're the one writing fanfic now.

For me, I don't care who gets what medal or if Russia would have won or not without Kamila there. I'm looking at it as protecting the Olympic image. If IOC really cared about protecting its image of "clean" sports, then ALL athletes would require ALL tests to come back clean before they're allowed in the Olympic village. No late tests means far less potential for scandal.

The fact they don't bother to do this means they WANT scandal because it brings in views, just like the Harding-Kerrigan scandal.

With the lab being late and IOC not caring about that, it just makes it look like Kamila was setup in some way, even if it she wasn't and it was just a terrible lab mistake.
I don't thinnnnkkkk the lab did it on purpose, but it adds so much suspicion to the pot because it's so conveniently timed.
Because again, what if they had been able to prove contamination of her pills etc? What happens the next time someone's team is screwed out of a medal because one of their teammates tests positive and its only later found out that it was all a big contamination mistake?

If nothing else, I hope this really ingrains in Russia and elsewhere to make sure you get all of your tests back NOW, even if you have to kick down the lab door to get the results back. Since IOC clearly doesn't care and wants a scandal to occur from late tests.

 

[Mathman]

The fact they don't bother to do this means they WANT scandal because it brings in views, just like the Harding-Kerrigan scandal.

Since IOC clearly doesn't care and wants a scandal to occur from late tests.

The IOC does not want doping scandals. It would kill the Olympic games altogether if the general public came to believe that all the athletes are pumped full of steroids and growth hormones. Who would wan to watch that?

Instead of giving th gold medal to the athlete, it would go to the best pharmacologist.

 

[skatingguy]

I doubt any of that would have happened. You're the one writing fanfic now.

For me, I don't care who gets what medal or if Russia would have won or not without Kamila there. I'm looking at it as protecting the Olympic image. If IOC really cared about protecting its image of "clean" sports, then ALL athletes would require ALL tests to come back clean before they're allowed in the Olympic village. No late tests means far less potential for scandal.

The fact they don't bother to do this means they WANT scandal because it brings in views, just like the Harding-Kerrigan scandal.

Or that the process is out of their control because testing is the responsibility of the national anti-doping agencies, and if the IOC tried to insert themselves CAS would overrule the decision as they have many other times when the IOC has overstepped it's authority.

With the lab being late and IOC not caring about that, it just makes it look like Kamila was setup in some way, even if it she wasn't and it was just a terrible lab mistake.
I don't thinnnnkkkk the lab did it on purpose, but it adds so much suspicion to the pot because it's so conveniently timed.

There was nothing about that timing that was convenient for anyone involved.

Because again, what if they had been able to prove contamination of her pills etc? What happens the next time someone's team is screwed out of a medal because one of their teammates tests positive and its only later found out that it was all a big contamination mistake?

We don't have any concrete evidence that this was contamination. We will have to wait for the full report from CAS to see what information was presented on behalf of Valieva regarding the source of the positive test.

If nothing else, I hope this really ingrains in Russia and elsewhere to make sure you get all of your tests back NOW, even if you have to kick down the lab door to get the results back. Since IOC clearly doesn't care and wants a scandal to occur from late tests.

Countries that care about the integrity of clean sport already do this.

 

[skatingguy]

RUSADA will ask CAS not to disclose the reasoning part of the decision in the Valieva case​

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Ðб ÑÑом ÑообÑили в РоÑÑийÑком анÑидопинговом агенÑÑÑве (РУСÐÐÐ).

www.sports.ru

So we may never know why the four year ban was imposed, and what information was presented on behalf of Valieva to account for the positive test.

 

[4everchan]

I doubt any of that would have happened. You're the one writing fanfic now.

Exactly. That was the point of my post. Fans need to stop promoting a whole bunch of random scenarios. All we have are the facts as presented to us. End of the story.

 

[niks]

Let's imagine another scenario : IOC WADA and ISU get furious about the doping of a child. They decide that ROC will no take part in the team event. Or even worse, ROC will not take part in figure skating at all. After all, perhaps the IOC doesn't think it's smart to invite other athletes who share the same entourage at the games. Perhaps there would be a true inquiry on the entourage right away. Let's not forget that Russia has enough of a state-sponsored doping history to the point that they do not compete under Russia but ROC.
Perhaps that would have been a wake-up call for the IOC to give them a time-out.

I'm sorry but that wouldn't have happened in a million years. Even in the real scenario where the child doping scandal broke out in the worst and more public way, IOC /WADA/ ISU do not care enough about it as to at least pretend they investigate for half a second who doped her and how she was doped, and try to get those people accountable. Their blame starts and ends with Kamila, the child in all this, and all they (as well as all the Feds involved and sadly many other people and fans) care about are the famous medals. Their so promoted anti-dopping fighting seems in this case just lip-service and shallow propaganda. It's all very demoralizing actually

 

[TallyT]

RUSADA will ask CAS not to disclose the reasoning part of the decision in the Valieva case​

Well that's not suspicious at alllllll .......

 

[Sjs5572]

It is NOT the lab's fault. Repeat after me, louder for the people in the back, it is NOT the lab's fault.

It is RUSADA's fault for cheating so much in the past that they needed to use an outside lab. It is RUSADA's fault for not following up. It is RUSADA's fault for not marking the sample as urgent.

RusFed excuses remind me of a toddler: the dog did it, it was my brother, waaah, mommy it wasn't me, anything that would stop RusFed from looking in the mirror and taking responsibility as they deserve for this entire situation

And laughing responses mean that you are happy and agree with me, so I'll take it

El Henry is always a voice of reason on this board.

 

[skatingguy]

I'm sorry but that wouldn't have happened in a million years. Even in the real scenario where the child doping scandal broke out in the worst and more public way, IOC /WADA/ ISU do not care enough about it as to at least pretend they investigate for half a second who doped her and how she was doped, and try to get those people accountable. Their blame starts and ends with Kamila, the child in all this, and all they (as well as all the Feds involved and sadly many other people and fans) care about are the famous medals. Their so promoted anti-dopping fighting seems in this case just lip-service and shallow propaganda. It's all very demoralizing actually

This is not true. The responsibility for the investigation that should have happened after the positive test to determine the reason is the responsibility of RUSADA. None of the agencies in question have the authority to investigate the actions or non-actions of a coaching staff, and training centre in Russia, and even if they did they couldn't do so without the cooperation of the Russian authorities.

 

[niks]

This is not true. The responsibility for the investigation that should have happened after the positive test to determine the reason is the responsibility of RUSADA. None of the agencies in question have the authority to investigate the actions or non-actions of a coaching staff, and training centre in Russia, and even if they did they couldn't do so without the cooperation of the Russian authorities.

It would be ridiculous to assert that WADA has not power to conduct independent investigations into doping cases. Then, what would be their purpose? If they are completly powerless in the face of the national agencies, then why do they even exist?

No, they need to be taken accountable too. Yes, the investigation should have been started by RUSADA. But it didn't and RUSADA itself has been imposed sanctions and restrictions by WADA (see WADA does have power over them ) so it's not as if WADA can claim that they blindly trust RUSADA. So WADA should have demanded such an investigation (which they never did) and then when there was clearly no initiative whatsoever, they should have stepped in and conduct this investigation themselves. It's their obligation, they can't possibly turn a blind eye and expect to retain any moral high ground on this. The same goes for IOC /ISU (albeit perhaps in a slight smaller scale as they are not officially the anti-doping fighting agency) who never raised one finger to at least demand that the real responsables be identified and punished.

I agree that RUSADA and Russian Fed did many things wrong, but the attitude of allocating 1000% of the blame on the Russian side, while giving a pass to everyone else is wrong. It takes accountability away and helps fomenting corruption. It hurts the overall fight against doping. If WADA is not accountable for anything, why would they even care?

RUSADA and Russian Fed were wrong. WADA was wrong. IOC /ISU were wrong. The Swedish lab was wrong. Yes, it's possible for all parties involved to be simultaneously wrong. And in this case, in my opinion nobody comes out even half decently.

 

[TallyT]

Thing is Valieva's wildly stupid defence, which no one believes but which is what it is, pretty much clears her coaching team and everyone except her own family.

 

[niks]

Thing is Valieva's wildly stupid defence, which no one believes but which is what it is, pretty much clears her coaching team and everyone except her own family.

But again, if nobody believes Kamila's defence, why was the doping not properly investigated?

Because otherwise this is more of the same. The child should have come upfront and accused those who doped her. Who are in all probability her closest entourage for like her entire life and hold power over her career and future. She didn't stand up against them (shockingly) and so WADA and Co can't do anything at all. Again, the blame starts and ends with the child. I'm starting to despair here

 

[beachmouse]

This is not true. The responsibility for the investigation that should have happened after the positive test to determine the reason is the responsibility of RUSADA. None of the agencies in question have the authority to investigate the actions or non-actions of a coaching staff, and training centre in Russia, and even if they did they couldn't do so without the cooperation of the Russian authorities.

There is the right of the ISU and WADA to investigate whether a sanctioned athlete, coach, or sporting official is engaging in activities that are prohibited as part of a suspension or ban.

There’s a famed race walking coach named Viktor Chegin who was found to be a) engaging in systematic doping of athletes and then b) continuing to coach them while the athletes were under suspension. (The infamous ‘Shoegate’ social media postings)

The IAAF requested that RUSADA van Chegin for life over his actions. RUSADA agreed in theory but he has continued to coach athletes. So the IAAF then goes on to suspend Russian athletes they can prove have worked with Chegin.

(Really, Kamila could get together with any number of good Russian skating coaches while she is serving her doping suspension, provided they can keep any evidence of her training with them off social media, which is admittedly hard for a modern teenage girl to do.)

Viktor Chegin - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

IAAF Suspends 5 Russian Athletes From Competing Over Banned Coach

The governing body of world athletics has suspended five Russian race walkers from competition pending further investigation of their participation in a training camp with a banned coach.The decision to revoke the neutral status of Klavdiya Afanasyeva, Olga Eliseeva, Yuliya Lipanova, Sergey...

www.themoscowtimes.com

 

[Mathman]

Viktor Chegin - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This paragraph caught my eye.

"Several of Chegin's suspended athletes, including Sergey Bakulin, Elena Lashmanovaand Ekaterina Medvedevaapparently competed in a race on 30 December 2014 according to photographs collected by Canadian race walker Evan Dunfee.[13]Russian officials claim the photographs are from a 2012 event and released additional photographs which show different athletes on the awards stands. Although it is impossible to be from 2012 as the Running Shoes used, were not released by Asicsuntil after 2012."

I imagine that "Russian officials" would do the same for a famous figure skating coach as for a famous racewalking coach.

Although -- is it credible that no one besdes a sneaky Canadian walker knows who competed in that race and who stood on the podium? Is racewalking really that obscur that no records are even kept?

This article gives the impression that the sport of racewalking is right up there with cycling as a sport that has gone so far over to the dark side that there is no hope to bring it back.

(By the way, there is a tangential connection with figure skating. Caorlina Kostner was banned from competition for 18 months because when the WADA people showed up at her door looking for her boyfriend, an racewalker, to give him his drug test. Kostner said she didn't know where he was, when in fact he was right there in the back room. That's why men are no good -- if you stick up for them, they will just get you in trouble.)

 

[readernick]

But again, if nobody believes Kamila's defence, why was the doping not properly investigated?

Because otherwise this is more of the same. The child should have come upfront and accused those who doped her. Who are in all probability her closest entourage for like her entire life and hold power over her career and future. She didn't stand up against them (shockingly) and so WADA and Co can't do anything at all. Again, the blame starts and ends with the child. I'm starting to despair here

It is a sad situation. But, the fact is the agencies and authorities who could investigate this situation are, as has already been stated, RUSADA and the Russian government. Neither RUSADA (I'm sure there are good members of this organization but as a group) nor the Russian government have any interest in exposing the truth behind the doping which would likely reveal how widespead doping is within Russian figure skating and require a large number of athletes to return their medals. WADA and the IOC really have very limited authority and depend on the cooperation of governments.

IMHO this is part of the reason Valieva was given such a long ban. Everyone understands it was the system that is at fault and they want to discourage the adults involved from doping other athletes. They hope a harsh ban and losing medals will discourage coaches from engaging in such behavior. I hope they are right but I , unfortunately, doubt it.

 

[4everchan]

It is a sad situation. But, the fact is the agencies and authorities who could investigate this situation are, as has already been stated, RUSADA and the Russian government. Neither RUSADA (I'm sure there are good members of this organization but as a group) nor the Russian government have any interest in exposing the truth behind the doping which would likely reveal how widespead doping is within Russian figure skating and require a large number of athletes to return their medals. WADA and the IOC really have very limited authority and depend on the cooperation of governments.

IMHO this is part of the reason Valieva was given such a long ban. Everyone understands it was the system that is at fault and they want to discourage the adults involved from doping other athletes. They hope a harsh ban and losing medals will discourage coaches from engaging in such behavior. I hope they are right but I , unfortunately, doubt it.

CAS indeed did all they could... ISU reopened the door offering bronze

 

[readernick]

CAS indeed did all they could... ISU reopened the door offering bronze

Honestly, I think they did that to avoid further legislation. Everyone's sick of this horrible situation and sick of the ridiculous excuses Russia uses. They thought it would prevent Russia from appealing. But, clearly, that didn't work. I hope Russia truly ends up with no medal now. I like many of the athletes on that Russian team. Particularly, the pairs but sometimes group punishment is the only punishment that will lead to change.