The Greatest Of All Time

[Mathman]

Malinin himself explained his dream was to be the second coming of Yuzuru Hanyu, so here you are ...

True. But will skaters of the future lsiten to Iliia's words or will they pay more attention to how many points a quad Axel brings?

Sic transit gloria mundi. Young skaters nowadays do not come up saying. " I want to skate like Evgeni Plushenko." "I want to skate like Dick Button." "I want to skate like Ulrich Salchow."

 

[Magill]

True. But will skaters of the future lsiten to Iliia's words or will they pay more attention to how many points a quad Axel brings?

Sic transit gloria mundi. Young skaters nowadays do not come up saying. " I want to skate like Evgeni Plushenko." "I want to skate like Dick Button." "I want to skate like Ulrich Salchow."

Oh, sure,. They do not say "I want to skate like Sonja Henie", either, do they? You saw no problem with it, did you?
As for Malinin, well, he could have picked dreaming of being a second coming of Nathan Chen, would have even suit his style and nationality better, don't you think? Or Patrick Chan? Or Evgenij Plushenko? Couldn't he? But he didn't.... had a reason why...

 

[4everchan]

Oh, sure,. They do not say "I want to skate like Sonja Henie", either, do they? You saw no problem with it, did you?
As for Malinin, well, he could have picked dreaming of being a second coming of Nathan Chen, would have even suit his style and nationality better, don't you think? Or Patrick Chan? Or Evgenij Plushenko? Couldn't he? But he didn't.... had a reason why...

I can't hear all the names

Patrick : Kurt and Stéphane

Dai : Stéphane, Jeff ( i think that's what he said) and ... Patrick (and someone else I cannot hear)

Yuzu : Patrick, and Plushenko. (he said something else I didn't hear).

And no, I didn't do selective hearing LOL the sound is just not clear on my device.

The point : skaters will often name their contemporary. It's perfectly normal that many skaters in the Yuzu era would name him as a role model because he is of course, what they aspire to become. Just the same was when Dai and Yuzu mentioned Patrick.

You may think it's being courteous and respectful towards the world champion of the moment. But then, the same could be said during interviews. Most skaters will refer to someone people can relate to. So yeah, not very many people would suggest Toller Cranston at this point except perhaps @el henry 's little cousin who had not been summoned to this thread yet

 

[Magill]

I can't hear all the names

Patrick : Kurt and Stéphane

Dai : Stéphane, Jeff ( i think that's what he said) and ... Patrick (and someone else I cannot hear)

Yuzu : Patrick, and Plushenko. (he said something else I didn't hear).

And no, I didn't do selective hearing LOL the sound is just not clear on my device.

The point : skaters will often name their contemporary. It's perfectly normal that many skaters in the Yuzu era would name him as a role model because he is of course, what they aspire to become. Just the same was when Dai and Yuzu mentioned Patrick.

You may think it's being courteous and respectful towards the world champion of the moment. But then, the same could be said during interviews. Most skaters will refer to someone people can relate to. So yeah, not very many people would suggest Toller Cranston at this point except perhaps @el henry 's little cousin who had not been summoned to this thread yet

Ha ha I know this clip, of course. Yuzu, a teen, was clearly being courteous and polite in the presence of Patrick, and even asked Dai to go first, have you noticed? He was asked this question standing next to him. so of course he mentioned him. Still, he never made it a secret his true idols were Plushenko and Johnny Weir. He even made two programs - SP and LP - dedicated to them after doubling his OGM. What could be a better way of showing affection? OTOH, I have no doubts, of course, that he truly respected Patrick and acknowledged his skills and achievements. Was he respected back, one might ask?
As for Ilia Malinin, even more polite of him would be to pick up Nathan Chen, his compatriot, the reigning world and olympic champion, no?
Anyway, it was in response to Mathman, no need to bring it up outside of this context.

 

[Arigato]

They do not say "I want to skate like Sonja Henie", either, do they?

Skate like Henie. That would include everything she did while skating, including what she did on the ice in Berlin ahead of the 1936 Olympics. You can Google the story.

 

[Mathman]

Oh, sure,. They do not say "I want to skate like Sonja Henie", either, do they? You saw no problem with it, did you?

No problem at all. Everybody has his own life to live. That was then, this is now, etc., etc.

It is pleasant when the next generation shows respect for the accomplishments of those who have gone before. Other than that, on we go, onward and upward.

 

[Mathman]

Skate like Henie. That would include everything she did while skating, including what she did on the ice in Berlin ahead of the 1936 Olympics.

Henie was not a political person. She had, as far as I can tell, no other interests than promoting herself. If you really want to get into unflattering criticism of the person behind the glitter, the place to start is the tell-all book by her brother Leif, Queen of Ice, Queen of Shadows: The Unsuspected Life of Sonja Henie.

In terms of World War II, what Henie really took heat for at the time was that she did not contribute any of her money to the Norwegian resistance. Does this diminish our evaluation of her skating? To some people it does, others try to keep thngs separate.

 

[el henry]

I can't hear all the names

Patrick : Kurt and Stéphane

Dai : Stéphane, Jeff ( i think that's what he said) and ... Patrick (and someone else I cannot hear)

Yuzu : Patrick, and Plushenko. (he said something else I didn't hear).

And no, I didn't do selective hearing LOL the sound is just not clear on my device.

The point : skaters will often name their contemporary. It's perfectly normal that many skaters in the Yuzu era would name him as a role model because he is of course, what they aspire to become. Just the same was when Dai and Yuzu mentioned Patrick.

You may think it's being courteous and respectful towards the world champion of the moment. But then, the same could be said during interviews. Most skaters will refer to someone people can relate to. So yeah, not very many people would suggest Toller Cranston at this point except perhaps @el henry 's little cousin who had not been summoned to this thread yet

I indeed would include Toller. If only because he helped changed the sport, through his lack of "success" oddly enough.

But recency bias is a thing, and my little cousin would probably go with someone she actually saw.

 

[4everchan]

Ha ha I know this clip, of course. Yuzu, a teen, was clearly being courteous and polite in the presence of Patrick, and even asked Dai to go first, have you noticed? He was asked this question standing next to him. so of course he mentioned him. Still, he never made it a secret his true idols were Plushenko and Johnny Weir. He even made two programs - SP and LP - dedicated to them after doubling his OGM. What could be a better way of showing affection? OTOH, I have no doubts, of course, that he truly respected Patrick and acknowledged his skills and achievements. Was he respected back, one might ask?
As for Ilia Malinin, even more polite of him would be to pick up Nathan Chen, his compatriot, the reigning world and olympic champion, no?
Anyway, it was in response to Mathman, no need to bring it up outside of this context.

I am not sure why the ha ha ?

Of course I noticed that Yuzu let his elder answer first. I thought it was because he wasn't confident in English and needed a bit more time. You can think that's because he didn't want to answer or wanted to see what Dai was saying.. That's up to you.
I am aware of the Plushenko adulation. To me, but this is just my personal take, since you have graced us with yours, skaters admiring Plushenko admire the achievements and the popularity of the skater... the skating itself isn't the most fabulous. But eh, I am just sharing my perception

Whatever you have doubts or not about Yuzuru's admiration of Patrick is not very relevant : Yuzuru's words speak for themselves.

Funny you ask about Yuzuru being respected back. At worlds in Montreal, a Japanese fan was speaking to Patrick, about Yuzuru and Patrick had the nicest words to say about Hanyu.

Mailinin has not given his last interview. Nathan may or not be an inspiration for him, we may hear about that later... but when Ilia started skating, it would be normal he could watch Yuzuru compete... while Nathan was still a novice skater. So in that sense, nationality is not really a factor but timing is.

I am not sure bringing this interview is out of context. In some ways, it just serves to show what some people say in this thread : there is no GOAT but there ia herd of them.

 

[Arigato]

Henie was not a political person.

I'm not either. It doesn't change the facts. I have no interest in reading a book about her, or anyone like her.

 

[Mathman]

I have no interest in reading a book about her, or anyone like her.

Well, you had enough interest to search out and post the Vanity Fair article -- and then to delete it in favor of this post.

Anyway, I think the point is, we do not know these skaters, be we ever so caught up in our fandom. I never met Michelle Kwan. I like her skating. In real life she might be the meanest witch in the coven, for all I can personally attest to.

(I almost met her once when I bought a ticket to a meet and greet featuring "skaters like Michelle Kwan" It turned out that "skaters like Michelle Kwan" meant Belbin and Agosto. It was my lucky day. Tanith and Ben were the soul of graciousness and interesting conversationalists. I had a ball.)

 

[Mathman]

Also, Yuzu's image, especially in the probably-most-iconic-program-of-modern-times Seimei, is so iconic (including in silhouette) that the media and IJS still unblushingly use it all the damn time.

Basketball in the U.S. is currently at a crossroads. The NBA logo for decades was a silhouuette of Jerry West, a star from the 1960s.

https://www.logodesignlove.com/images/classic/nba-logo.jpg

They have talked about adopting a new logo for years, but they didn't want to hurt West's feelings, who was still involved in basketball after his playinmg days were over. Mr. West passed away last month at age 86. Hoo, boy, here we go! The general consensus is that the new logo should be some version of the advertising logo of "Air Jrodans" (a brand of Nike basketball shoe endorsed by Michael.)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/37/Jumpman_logo.svg/220px-Jumpman_logo.svg.png

 

[synesthesia]

I can't hear all the names

Patrick : Kurt and Stéphane

Dai : Stéphane, Jeff ( i think that's what he said) and ... Patrick (and someone else I cannot hear)

Yuzu : Patrick, and Plushenko. (he said something else I didn't hear).

And no, I didn't do selective hearing LOL the sound is just not clear on my device.

The last ones he named were Charlie White and Meryl Davis (he had always been a huge fan of ice dance, especially of Meryl Davis).




On a similar note, this is what Patrick very recently (at Worlds in Montreal) said about his contemporaries / past rivals:

Scott: You skated at a time where there were wonderful skaters … and I think of the competitions that you had with Evan Lysacek and Daisuke Takahashi and Yuzuru Hanyu and Javier Fernandez… Was it invigorating to be a part of that golden age of men's figure skating?​

​

Patrick: Yeah, it made me a better skater ... like those men … they continued to push me further. I don't think I would have pushed myself to learn a 4S if it wasn't for Javier and Yuzu and my artistry wouldn't have been… my skating skills and my artistry wouldn't have been at the level it was if it wasn't for Daisuke Takahashi. Like that is, I think, by far my most favorite memory… rivalry was with Daisuke because he he was such a generous person on and off the ice and he brought a different style that nobody… I have yet to see a skater that can imitate his style and what he was able to do with you know Swan Lake and so many routines that he performed … that we competed against each other. I mean it's biased too because I I think I won a few more times against Daisuke than I did with Yuzu, but I just loved who he was as a person and he was just such a generous and kind man on and off the ice and I connected really well with him. So really it was the perfect example of a friendly competition.​

Patrick also said this about Daisuke in a different interview:

https://number.bunshun.jp/articles/-/857495

"Daisuke was my favourite rival during my career. We competed with each other during the games, but once we got off the ice, he was always very nice to me, warm and kind. As a skater, he had a great influence on me. When I was training with coach Christy Krall, I used to watch his videos and use them as a reference for my jumps," he confessed.​

​

"He was one of the most balanced athletes in terms of technique and art, and he skated amazing programs like 'Swan Lake'. As a performer, I loved him."​

​

"Out of all of us among singles athletes, he was the most artistic and expressive, so I wasn't surprised that he was attracted to ice dance."​

I personally don't see the point and even find it impossible to crown the one all-encompassing GOAT in any discipline. They all have different strengths and inspire and push each other to become better, more well rounded skaters. As Patrick himself said: he wouldn’t have been the kind of skater he was, if it hadn’t been for his contemporaries, who were (among) the best at certain aspects. Daisuke has often said he was “jealous” of the talents of other skaters, especially of the talents of his favourite skaters Jeffrey and Stéphane, and that this drove him to improve in those areas (so you could say that his artistry and skating skills wouldn't have been at the level they were if it weren't for those two). I think I read that Yuzuru worked on his skating skills specifically, because he felt he needed to in order to beat Patrick. They’re all linked together.

Of course, in each generation there are a couple of outstanding skaters that are among the most balanced, but even among those each has strengths and weaknesses compared to the others. And because each of us who are fans of this unique and beautiful sport value different aspects to different degrees, and since the intangible “artistry” is such a big factor as well, it is imo impossible to determine, who is the overall best. For me, this is like asking: Who is better – Picasso or van Gogh? Kate Bush or Peter Gabriel? Marlon Brando or Al Pacino?

 

[Mathman]

Patrick: My skating skills and my artistry wouldn't have been at the level it was if it wasn't for Daisuke Takahashi. Like that is, I think, by far my most favorite memory… rivalry was with Daisuke because he he was such a generous person on and off the ice and he brought a different style that nobody… I have yet to see a skater that can imitate his style and what he was able to do....

This quote is a tribute to both of them.

 

[AxelLover]

For men it's Plushenko or Yuzuru.

 

[TallyT]

Because - as proven by the other thread on ISU rules - there is a huge range of opinions on what makes for great skating, there is also a huge range of opinions on what makes the greatest of skaters (which is why I went empirical first with Yuzuru in a list of bests and first and onlys. Though not a great fan of Patrick, and not a fan at all of Nathan Chen, I have no doubt that said fans could also compile a list, and Kwan and Kim even more so.) Kwan and Kim would have just as impressive lists and a huge impact on the sport in their own country. Takahashi, like Asada, had great influence in Japan, but Yuzu has that (a People's Award, folks, among all the rest and the economic impact and everything) and a simply greater list. OTOH, Plushenko has everything that could be wanted in a GOAT and no one has mentioned him yet, though I suspect five or more years ago someone would have (ps - and as I was typing this @AxelLover did! )

My radio station that does top 100 classical countdowns once did one for composers and everyone knew exactly which names would be top three (top ten, there was errrr, rather less consensus and a lot of grumping). But the arguing which of those three should be number one GOAT...... (Beethoven won and I'm still sulking)

 

[TallyT]

Anyway, I think the point is, we do not know these skaters, be we ever so caught up in our fandom. I never met Michelle Kwan. I like her skating. In real life she might be the meanest witch jn the coven, for all I can personally attest to.

I have always had a soft spot for her ever since I read the story - I am paraphrasing because it was a while ago - that she said jokingly she didn't want TV cameras backstage because they might catch her watching her rivals and going "Fall! Fall!"

They have talked about adopting a new logo for years, but they didn't want to hurt West's feelings...

I very much doubt that the ISU or other officials who use Yuzu's image are in the least bit concerned about that but to be fair they have the rights to the images and no one can deny he is beautiful.....

 

[Mathman]

(Beethoven won and I'm still sulking)

Not only were Mozart and Bach better, so was Haydn.

Edit: As for Plushenko, I think the reason that he does not get as much love as his haul of medals would justify, is that his on-ice personality was somewhat cool and distant.

 

[AxelLover]

Though not a great fan of Patrick, and not a fan at all of Nathan Chen, I have no doubt that said fans could also compile a list

God knows I am a huge fan of both Patrick and Nathan – as well as Javi and Shoma, to have the list of Yuzuru's main rivals complete – but none of them stands a chance against Yuzuru in terms of GOATness. Still can't decide between Yuzu and Plush, though.

 

[TallyT]

Not only were Mozart and Bach better, so was Haydn.

{oh dear, do not mention where Haydn was in the poll......}