The Greatest Of All Time

[TallyT]

Totally, Plushenko was brilliant skater but somehow I couldn't feel the link with him, that I felt with skaters like Stanick Jeannette or Kevin van der Perren, who both were obviously less brilliant technically but you could see they skate because they like it

Love Kevin, he may never be one of the names that comes up in discussions of great skating, but when I need a lift or something to make me smile, he's one of the ones I go to.

 

[Magill]

It raises - at least to me - an interesting question of how displays of arrogance and/or poor sportsmanship does affect the general or historic view of a skater's actual claim to greatness (please note the word general, I do not mean specific fans or fan groups). I know I said that for me it shouldn't (although I do not lay claim to being objective, especially when it's someone I don't like anyway) but I'm thinking more of 'the public', maybe casual fans, and in different countries.

Besides Chan, the cases I can think of straight off are Plushenko (who seems to have gotten away with it for quite a long time), Surya Bonaly, Kerrigan (those remarks about the girl who beat her) and Trusova's outburst at the Olympics (because I am damn sure I read more criticisms of her skating technique and 'what does she expect' after that than before). Oh, and Malinin's dig at gay skaters for which he apparently received pr training. I'm sure there are others but did the criticism of behaviour taint the memory of performance in some of these? It's something that seems to vary from sport to sport, of course.

And furthermore with Kerrigan especially, if she had won the Olympic medal, providing a happy ending to the whole saga and no chance to be overheard being catty in defeat, would she now be remembered by at least some of the public as one of the greats rather than a featured player in a hit movie about someone else?

This is a very important question as it touches on what makes an athlete "great" in the eyes of the public. Do we mean only the wins, medals, stats and world records, or do we also consider personal qualities and expect them to keep to a certain standard, especially when it comes to sportsmanship?
I think it is one of the reasons why so many people in tennis see Roger Federer and Rafa Nadal as more GOATsy than Novak Djokovic, although it is him who won more slams than the other two (very recently, but still).

 

[Mathman]

...Stanick Jeannette...

Thank you for mentioning this delightful performer. From a long line of quirky Frenchmen who never failed to bring something unique.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Maybe, but if Yuna doesn't have a gold medal and Michelle has one, everybody will agreed about Michelle Kwan is higher in the "GOAT" list than Yuna. And as you can see on the thread, it's curently not the case

What fans in this thread think about different skaters or how they rate various skaters is NOT an accurate measure of anything, much less the overly hyped GOAT designation.

ETA:
And, LOL! Yuna would tell us and has told us how much Michelle Kwan inspired her. Without Michelle Kwan's impact on figure skating, we likely would not have witnessed the phenomenonal feats of Yuna Kim. In an informal, non-judgmental way, I personally feel that Yuna was perhaps one of the greatest technicians in terms of jumps. She was not a very good spinner, though. Even MK was not the best at spins, but at some point in MK's career she went to a spin doctor and briefly perfected her lay back position.

Michelle Kwan was not the best ever at any specific part of her skating. She was simply a well-trained, well-rounded athlete with courage, ambition and competitive vigor. MK is one of the most inspirational skaters and humans, as she transcended the sport with her character, her sportsmanship, and her hard work ethic. In terms of her career, she started out as an adorable jumping bean and transformed into a legendary artist and a dominant competitor par excellence!

But hopefully, by now, we have gotten past the limiting quest of trying to search after 'the next Michelle Kwan.' Nurture skaters on their own merits, and allow them to find themselves and express who they are on the ice. Get rid of the boring sameness in personas, programs, and costumes we too often see in the ladies discipline.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

True. But will skaters of the future lsiten to Iliia's words or will they pay more attention to how many points a quad Axel brings?

Sic transit gloria mundi. Young skaters nowadays do not come up saying. " I want to skate like Evgeni Plushenko." "I want to skate like Dick Button." "I want to skate like Ulrich Salchow."

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make in conversation with other posters. But my immediate reaction to your above comment is: I doubt that anyone has ever said, "I want to skate like Ulrich Salchow." Not even during Salchow's era in the first decade of the 1900s is it likely that his contemporaries desired to skate like him. They may have wished to emulate some of his technical feats, but wanting to 'skate like him,' I am skeptical that was the case. In fact, do we even know what Salchow's skating was like, outside of possible old print reviews in newspapers that would have to be investigated? Maybe @SkateGuardBlog would know. There may be photos, and possibly crude film clips of Salchow jumping, But nothing that would give us a very good idea of how he moved over the ice. That was a developing era in the sport. Approaches to skating were quite different than what we know today.

I bet some skaters today only know 'salchow' as a jump, not a person. Thus, sķaters would more likely desire to perfect their salchow jump technique rather than wanting to skate like the jump's inventor.

 

[gkelly]

In fact, do we even know what Salchow's skating was like, outside of possible old print reviews in newspapers that would have to be investigated? Maybe @SkateGuardBlog would know. There may be photos, and possibly crude film clips of Salchow jumping, But nothing that would give us a very good idea of how he moved over the ice.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

 

[4everchan]

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

I'd be happy to skate like him that would be a good start for someone like me who only skated in hockey boots, and most often, on the ice sheet my dad would make in the backyard

 

[Mathman]

I doubt that anyone has ever said, "I want to skate like Ulrich Salchow."

I am pretty sure that Dick Button did.

In the clip that gkelly posted, even the dog couldn't wait to rush onto the ice and skate like Salchow.

Here is Button displaying his most prized possession, a special trophy given to him by Salchow after Button finished second at 1947 worlds and Salchow thought he should have got first. (Most recently the Salchow-Button trophy has been passed down to Jason Brown -- who no doubt is humble -- yet proud! -- to have become part of this unique tradition.)

https://www.antiquesandthearts.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/img_3088_fotor.jpg

 

[Arigato]

Well, you had enough interest to search out and post the Vanity Fair article

I already knew all about the skater. Let's move on.

 

[TT_Fin]

Imo in ID Torvill and Dean. The rules today take care of that they can never be beaten. That kind of personality is not possible any more.

 

[el henry]

To be fair, the OP said GOAT of the last 30 years (which I guess is GOAT semi-finalist?)

Ice dance GOAT is in fact Torvill and Dean, because they changed the sport.

But maybe we can't tell that in less than 30 years?

 

[TT_Fin]

Torvill and Dean's last competition wss LilleHammer 1994. So just few months more than 30 years .

 

[Skater Boy]

And beating Hanyu, Chan, Uno and other luminaries along the way.

On the subject of influence in one's own country beyond the boundaries of sport, he was the Spanish Yuna Kim (although figure skating in Spain did not take off like it has in Korea.)

In the U.S. Michelle Kwan and Kristi Yamaguchi are still revered by the generation of Asian Americans that is just now rising to positions of power and prominence in all walks of life. Many (especially girls) have written testimonials of what it was like to grow up in America in an era where high-achieving AAPI people were not very visible in mainstream U.S. culture and society, and how much these role models meant to them.

I think a lot depends on our definition of GOAT. I do think Javi is a hard sell. While charming and some liked his looks his skating was good but GOAT sort of suggests if not OGM then many world titles ie Kwan and Chan or something distinctive ie skating skills like Chan, even Kostner, even Sasha Cohen had such grace. Javi was a competent jumper, some personality and charm some good results but nothing really super amaxing ie even spins, skating skills, artist, difficult jumps. Yes he beat some great ones but that's not enough - GOAT is super extraordinary. Love Javi but hard to give him the title of GOAT. Not everyone can be a GOAT. He might be more of a lamb.

 

[Mathman]

By the way, if one of the considerations is the impact on the sport, then I think that for the United States at least (not so much internationally) Scott Hamilton deserves honorable mention.

As the brains and managerial skill behind Stars on Ice, Hamilton reinvigorated professional ice shows and set this form of emtertainment on a new track and to new popularity. And also provided opportunties for men to get back into the game in a major way, as contrasted with the "Las Vegas showgirls on ice" motiff of Ice capades and Ice Follies.

 

[Arigato]

This is a very important question as it touches on what makes an athlete "great" in the eyes of the public. Do we mean only the wins, medals, stats and world records, or do we also consider personal qualities and expect them to keep to a certain standard, especially when it comes to sportsmanship?
I think it is one of the reasons why so many people in tennis see Roger Federer and Rafa Nadal as more GOATsy than Novak Djokovic, although it is him who won more slams than the other two (very recently, but still).

We are of the same mind on this topic. We were yesterday, we are today, and will undoubtedly continue to be in the future. I can't make this any clearer. It's important.

Whether it's in the eyes of the public or the eyes of an athlete's peers, everything matters. Everything.

Rafa, Novak, and Roger are what many call "the triad of tennis." Rafa has been my choice for GOAT for so many reasons not only in tennis, but I would transfer him to what I call the GOAT list where it doesn't even matter what your sport is since they are so exceptional as a leader, and role model for all who are in the sport and are entering the sport as young kids. There's a reason you hear so many young players say, "We all want to be Rafa." It's not just how many titles he has won for more than two decades, it's who he is as a human being.

Having said that, there is someone else who shares some of Rafa's qualities. And that is Yuzu. The relentless quality in the two is palpable, and who they became as people growing up in their sport has something similar - dealing with chronic physical adversity to compete. GOATS should be tested in ways that others are not.

Yuzu is an athlete with asthma. At 2012 Worlds, you can see him gasping for air at the end of his program with a tear running down his face. I dated someone with asthma, I know what it can do to a person and, worse, in mere seconds. Being an athlete in need of proper oxygen can have devastating effects when it's not there for them. How will you jump if you just had an attack? Yuzu didn't care, he won't quit no matter what. He'll get on the ice even after having an attack, looking like death warmed up. ( Free skate 2021 Worlds.) He'll skate after injury to an ankle in practice between the short and free program and still hop up on the podium with one leg and a crutch even though the doctor told him not to skate the long program. That's Yuzu. 2022 OLYG, history repeats itself. He was injured during practice between the short and free, I watched it happen while it was streaming in real time, and knew he was screwed when he went to get up off the ice. The ankle wouldn't hold him up. Only Yuzu would go for a 4A in the free skate at the OLYG, freshly injured. He should have withdrawn, but I knew he wouldn't. That's Yuzu. Relentless.

Like Yuzu, Rafa had a physical challenge early on, but in his case told no one for many years. He wanted no one to know he had Mueller-Weiss syndrome in his left foot, which is a rare degenerative condition that causes chronic pain. A doctor once told him, "You will never play professional tennis." Imagine that. Well, we know what happened next . . .


GOATS aren't GOATS because of a high number. GOATS are GOATS because of a low number. There aren't many human beings like them.

 

[Skater Boy]

Love Kevin, he may never be one of the names that comes up in discussions of great skating, but when I need a lift or something to make me smile, he's one of the ones I go to.

Aren't there a few Kevin's?

 

[el henry]

Aren't there a few Kevin's?

But the person you quoted specifically quoted a post that said Kevin van der Perren. So reading the entire post, it is clear which Kevin.

 

[Mathman]

Aren't there a few Kevin's?

A few Kevins, but only one Stannick Jeannette.

By the way, whenever the GOAT discussion comes up, some of the posts that it attracts are downright scary.

 

[TallyT]

Aren't there a few Kevin's?

Sorry, the post above mine that I answered to was about Kevin Van Der Perren

Though I do really like Kevin Reynolds too, he has character and wonderful hair and I think he was unlucky in that his time coincided with Patrick Chan so he was forever in the shadow.

 

[Magill]

We are of the same mind on this topic. We were yesterday, we are today, and will undoubtedly continue to be in the future. I can't make this any clearer. It's important.

Whether it's in the eyes of the public or the eyes of an athlete's peers, everything matters. Everything.

Rafa, Novak, and Roger are what many call "the triad of tennis." Rafa has been my choice for GOAT for so many reasons not only in tennis, but I would transfer him to what I call the GOAT list where it doesn't even matter what your sport is since they are so exceptional as a leader, and role model for all who are in the sport and are entering the sport as young kids. There's a reason you hear so many young players say, "We all want to be Rafa." It's not just how many titles he has won for more than two decades, it's who he is as a human being.

Having said that, there is someone else who shares some of Rafa's qualities. And that is Yuzu. The relentless quality in the two is palpable, and who they became as people growing up in their sport has something similar - dealing with chronic physical adversity to compete. GOATS should be tested in ways that others are not.

Yuzu is an athlete with asthma. At 2012 Worlds, you can see him gasping for air at the end of his program with a tear running down his face. I dated someone with asthma, I know what it can do to a person and, worse, in mere seconds. Being an athlete in need of proper oxygen can have devastating effects when it's not there for them. How will you jump if you just had an attack? Yuzu didn't care, he won't quit no matter what. He'll get on the ice even after having an attack, looking like death warmed up. ( Free skate 2021 Worlds.) He'll skate after injury to an ankle in practice between the short and free program and still hop up on the podium with one leg and a crutch even though the doctor told him not to skate the long program. That's Yuzu. 2022 OLYG, history repeat itself. He was injured during practice between the short and free, I watched it happen while it was streaming in real time, and knew he was screwed when he went to get up off the ice. The ankle wouldn't hold him up. Only Yuzu would go for a 4A in the free skate at the OLYG, freshly injured. He should have withdrawn, but I knew he wouldn't. That's Yuzu. Relentless.

Like Yuzu, Rafa had a physical challenge early on, but in his case told no one for many years. He wanted no one to know he had Mueller-Weiss syndrome in his left foot, which is a rare degenerative condition that causes chronic pain. A doctor once told him, "You will never play professisonal tennis." Imagine that. Well, we know what happened next . . .


GOATS aren't GOATS because of a high number. GOATS are GOATS because of a low number. There aren't many human beings like them.

Thank you very much for this post! It means tonnes to read it from an athlete!
I am also Team Rafa and hold him in very high, high regard. And also see him and Yuzu sharing lots of great qualities, no matter how different their sports are. Great human qualities. Yes, the qualities of the GOATs.