The Greatest Of All Time

[Mathman]

Here's a great video on all super slam winners and some of their stats - for those who still seek an inspiration to make up their minds or who just want to reminisce

The super slam really does put a time stamp on the discussion. The Junior Grand Prix (also the senior) was first held in the 1997-98 season), so anyone eho was already a senior is by then is out of the running. Likewise Four Continents started up only in 1999 and was not regarded as a major competition (at least for ladies) until 2008 when Japan started sending their best (Mao Asada and Miki Ando). Has the United States ever sent their national champion to the event?

Evan Lysacek has a "senior grand slam" with Olympics, Worlds, GP Final and two Four Continents. He also won the Junior GPF but was second at junior wor;lds three times.

By the way, in looking up these old records I found out that Timothy Goebel, winner of the very first junior grand prix final landed 76 career quads in competiiton. Is this a statistic that anyone has kept track of? Who is the all-time "career quad king"?

 

[gkelly]

Likewise Four Continents started up only in 1999 and was not regarded as a major competition (at least for ladies) until 2008 when Japan started sending their best (Mao Asada and Miki Ando). Has the United States ever sent their national champion to the event?

From a quick perusal of the Wikipedia pages:

Kimmie Meissner 2007
Ashley Wagner 2012
Gracie Gold 2016
Karen Chen 2017
Isabeau Levito 2023 (WD)

 

[CrazyKittenLady]

By the way, in looking up these old records I found out that Timothy Goebel, winner of the very first junior grand prix final landed 76 career quads in competiiton. Is this a statistic that anyone has kept track of? Who is the all-time "career quad king"?

Yes, Shoma 346
https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/t...ntially-dangerous-elements.98149/post-3291330

 

[Blades of Passion]

@ Blades of Passion
Well- and succinctly explicated.

Did you move to France?

For the upcoming Olympics at least

 

[TallyT]

The super slam really does put a time stamp on the discussion. The Junior Grand Prix (also the senior) was first held in the 1997-98 season), so anyone who was already a senior is by then is out of the running.

Yagudin and Plushenko. They both have the rest (JWC, OGM, WC, Euros and GPF). It should in fairness be noted that there is also a Golden Slam (all four senior majors in one season) and only Yagudin out of all the disciplines has achieved that. For myself I don't think that makes him the GOAT (none of these things do in themselves) but I doubt anyone can deny he would have to be considered in any serious list of possibles.

At least in the men's discipline, it looks like being a while before another super slam comes along as no one since Shoma has as yet taken both junior titles. In the women, Mao Shimada has both, but she won't even turn senior to start her collection of those for some years now...

 

[Mathman]

Also, the golden slam honors those who put together one perfect season. I can imagine a flash-in-the-pan situation that would be more of a one-hit wonder than a candidate for greatsest of all time. Maybe greatest season of all time.

 

[Jeanie19]

Also, the golden slam honors those who put together one perfect season. I can imagine a flash-in-the-pan situation that would be more of a one-hit wonder than a candidate for greatsest of all time. Maybe greatest season of all time.

Evgenia had 3 seasons in a row of a perfect season. Juniors 2014-2015, followed by Senior 2015-2016, 2016-2017.
Worlds, Grand Prix final and Europeans on the senior seasons.

 

[TallyT]

Evgenia had 3 seasons in a row of a perfect season. Juniors 2014-2015, followed by Senior 2015-2016, 2016-2017.
Worlds, Grand Prix final and Europeans on the senior seasons.

But there wasn't the fourth to make the golden slam. This is, I think, why the whole career body of work needs to be considered, since so many factors can impact how many medals/records/achievements, and which ones, a skater can get.

 

[Jeanie19]

But there wasn't the fourth to make the golden slam. This is, I think, why the whole career body of work needs to be considered, since so many factors can impact how many medals/records/achievements, and which ones, a skater can get.

I think the whole body of work should be considered and Olympic Gold shouldn't be the only criteria. Evgenia had 3 other good seasons Juniors 2013-2014, bronze medals, Senior 2017-2018 ..golds and silvers and 2018-2019 World Bronze. That's a lot.

Shoma Uno does not have Olympic Gold, but he has 2 Olympic medals, and lots of Gold medals over a 12 year career.

Michelle Kwan a slew of medals. Carolina Kostner does too.

 

[Mathman]

Michelle stood on the world championship podium for nine consecutuve years.

Sonja Henie 10 (all gold)
Herma Szabo 6
Carols Heiss 6
Lily Kronberger 5 (icluding 1909 when she was the only competitor)
Katarina Witt 5
Yuna Kim 5.

Anyone else in this elite group of ladies?

 

[4everchan]

But there wasn't the fourth to make the golden slam. This is, I think, why the whole career body of work needs to be considered, since so many factors can impact how many medals/records/achievements, and which ones, a skater can get.

well that's the danger with these slams... skaters go to competitions that are available to them. If a skater had their career peak, like Evgenia just before 2018 games, that doesn't mean that she's a lesser skater than the one who peaked right at the 2018 OGames, Zagitova. As a matter of fact, Zagitova had a very disappointing worlds that year... and Kaetlyn Osmond won worlds.

In some way, if we look only at hardware, Kaetlyn Osmond in the 2018 season has
gold at ACI
gold at SCI
bronze at GP France
bronze at GPF
Bronze at Olympics singles
Gold at Olympics team
and Gold at worlds singles.

Kaetlyn didn't do 4CC

So a gold and a bronze at Olympics + a Gold at worlds... versus Zagitova Gold and silver at Olympics no medal at worlds.

If we consider worlds and Olympics, who is the GOAT of 2018 ? I think finishing 5th at worlds disqualifies Zagitova.

I think 2018 was Kaetlyn Osmond's season.

We can take these facts and analyze them with different perspectives but Kaetlyn is the only skater that year who medaled both at worlds and at the Olympics (team and singles).

 

[TallyT]

Michelle stood on the world championship podium for nine consecutuve years.

Sonja Henie 10 (all gold)
Herma Szabo 6
Carols Heiss 6
Lily Kronberger 5 (icluding 1909 when she was the only competitor)
Katarina Witt 5
Yuna Kim 5.

Anyone else in this elite group of ladies?

And if you look at non-consecutive, Yuna has six and, if we are talking the last 30 years Slutskaya and Kostner do too and Mao five. It does also seem, looking at the wiki page on world medals, that less skaters are racking up a pile of them under IJS than before.

Also with regard to the ID question, Virtue/Moir have more world medals than Papadakis/Cizeron (7 vs 6) but less gold (3 vs 5). Torvill and Dean (who are some people's GOATs including me) have 4 medals, all gold. One more proof, were it needed, that the question is anything but simple

So a gold and a bronze at Olympics + a Gold at worlds... versus Zagitova Gold and silver at Olympics no medal at worlds.

If we consider worlds and Olympics, who is the GOAT of 2018 ?

The team medals are not the equivalent of the individual ones, it's pretty clear from interviews that the skaters think so too. And yes, Kaitlin had a great year but she only challenges Zagitova for top spot if you exclude everything else, which I can't because... well, body of work. One year doth not a Greatest of All Time make.

 

[4everchan]

One more proof, were it needed, that the question is anything but simple

The question is very simple... it's the answers that are not simple because there is no real way to make a unique case for anyone. It's just the reality some fans need to deal with. My GOAT in men is Patrick, yours is Yuzu... all is good.. .no need to try to go further... someone else may bring up another man and they would be entitled to do so because for them, according to their criteria, there may be another option

The team medals are not the equivalent of the individual ones, it's pretty clear from interviews that the skaters think so too.

Actually, some skaters have said the opposite. The pride of combining their efforts to win a team medal, as figure skating is an individual sport etc etc... Again, it's not just one way traffic here. And as fans, often we have selective memory. I love the team event, always loved it. Some fans hate it. So, as a loving and caring team event fan, I remember the positive banter about it... some fans may not. For instance, the Canadian skaters in 2018 were all buddies... and they were SO happy to share this moment together. It was truly special. When it comes to the Olympics, the reality is that a medal is a medal... it's tallied that way.

Penny Oleksiak is the most decorated Canadian athlete at the games with 7 olympic medals. 4 of her medals are from relays. They count in the tally making her the most decorated athlete.... relay medals are team event for swimming. I tend to believe that fans of sport in general and of the olympics have less of an issue with the team event in figure skating... because it's so damn common in other sports... but fans of mostly a few skaters or just figure skating seem to not like the team event... or not understand what it means to win as team... somehow, it's harder to win as team because everyone needs to do so well. Considering how much the American skaters want to get their gold from 2022 after the scandal of the team event, I think it's time to give a break to the banter saying that the team event is a lesser medal.

And yes, Kaitlin had a great year but she only challenges Zagitova for top spot if you exclude everything else, which I can't because... well, body of work. One year doth not a Greatest of All Time make.

I said GOAT of 2018 I am not claiming that Kaetlyn (that's how she spells her name btw) is the all time GOAT. Yet, for a figure skater from Canada, in its weakest discipline, KO has 3 olympic medals (one of each colour) and a world title. That's still quite impressive, especially considering she missed so much time with her injury....

BTW you have to be careful with body of work. It means two things. It can mean results but it can also mean variety of programs. For me, both are equally important. Kaetlyn has had really wonderful programs over the years, well constructed and some of which are still considered iconic. (her Piaf for instance)

 

[Magill]

So now we have seasonal GOATs? Oh, my. Soon we'll have a GOAT for each competition, not necessarily the same as the winner, cause, you know, body of work and it is in the eye of the beholder anyway...
It just does not mean anything anymore this way but well...

 

[TallyT]

Firstly apologies to Kaetlyn for mangling her name, I have a niece by name of Caitlin and two online friends named Kaitlyn and my spelling like my punctuation has always, at best, been impressionistic

Considering how much the American skaters want to get their gold from 2022 after the scandal of the team event...

Well of course they do, that's just silly: apart from Chen (and maybe Chock/Bates, who I love, next time but maybe not) most of the others had/have very little hope of otherwise getting Olympic gold or even being on an Olympic podium! There's only three individual medals or six in pairs and ID per discipline, after all, eighteen per quad, while there are up to thirty-six team ones, unless my maths has failed me. And yes, even people I love in themselves have received one when they are in quality way below skaters who go home with none in either event. It's not a team sport, since they never skate as a team (as synchro would be and do if allowed in); it's a cobbled together excuse for them to go out and do what they are going to do in the individual event anyway, and it's a blatant way to give out more but less exclusive medals (ps - there are also seventy-two Worlds medals in the same period of time, an even less exclusive club).

I'm not criticising either the Canadians in 2018 nor the US team (the fed, I am disgusted by) for 2022: anyone who sees any sort of Olympic glory in the offing is going to be all grabby hands and I can't blame them in the slightest.

I said GOAT of 2018

Which is fair enough, I guess although I - at least, and I may be alone - canNOT be having with a separate Greatest of All Time for every calendar year, it wounds the lexiconographical pedant deep within me, I am having enough trouble justifying to that pedant a pre and post IJS All Time. Maybe GOTY, though I'd still give it to Zagitova for 2018 (she also has to be credited with a bigger impact on the sport worldwide).

BTW you have to be careful with body of work. It means two things. It can mean results but it can also mean variety of programs. For me, both are equally important.

They are for me too, that's why I typed out that little list pages and pages ago....... and you did the one for Kaetlyn here.

 

[Mathman]

The AT part of GOAT means ALL Time. A one-season wonder is the opposite.

BTW you have to be careful with body of work. It means two things. It can mean results but it can also mean variety of programs.

To me, it means the quality of programs and performances. Focusing on results leads to the title "most decorated." It's nice to be decorated but it is even nicer to deliver breath-taking skates time after time. If we bring up the topic of a composer's "body of work," or an artist's, or an actor's, we are not asking about how much applase he got and whether he was knighted by the queen.

Chess champion Bobby Fischer once criticised one of his predecessor,s, Mikhail Botvinic for his pedestrian and unimaginative play. "But Bobby, he beat everyone there was to beat for twenty years!" Fischer's reply, "Just because someone is king for a long time doesn't make him a good king."

I think that the reason for the term "most decorated" is that the question "who is the most decoraded" has a well-defined answer. It can be determined by simply counting (although there might be a disagreement as to what exactly we should count). I think that is why serious chroniclers, as opposed to fans, lead off with "most decorated" and leave GOATS to the passions of partisans.

 

[Mathman]

And if you look at non-consecutive, Yuna has six and, if we are talking the last 30 years Slutskaya and Kostner do too and Mao five. It does also seem, looking at the wiki page on world medals, that less skaters are racking up a pile of them under IJS than before.

Still, there is something special about consecutive streaks, especially in view of the fact that a streak can be broken by outside influences such as injury. Usain Bolt won 45 races in a row.

Let's say that a top skater in her prime is so good that she has a 90% chance of making the world podium in any particular year. What's the probability that she does it nine times in a row? 39%. And that's assuming that her skills do not decline over a long career.

What is truly staggering is that Yuna Kim never, ever finished off the podium, not as a world and Olympic champion nor as a baby just learning how to lace up her skates.

 

[4everchan]

My point with Kaetlyn, wasn't to start proclaiming seasonal GOATS it was to show that if it's okay to look at OGM, it doesn't say the entire story. I agree with someone earlier who would put Medvedeva ahead of Zagitova if there were a GOAT race between the two. Sure, the latter won the Olympics, but it is undeniable that Medvedeva had a long and better career overall. Segue back to the simple concept that when looking at all the data, some favour things over others... and then it gets pretty difficult.

Some data is easily measurable : success at the Olympic. Number of world titles. Longevity, etc.

At the same time, the importance of that data becomes subjective. I value things that some of you do not find as important, and vice versa... So whose GOAT's list of criterai more important ? Mine ? Yours ? In the end, there are too many factors, too many components, and too much subjectivity.

We can go back to tennis... Who is the GOAT : Nadal, Federer, Djokovic? Someone else ? Really depends what one prioritizes. In any case, that was the point I was illustrating with Zagitova. She may have won the OGM but the years preceding, Zhenya was truly the best skater and by quite a margin. And in the end, Kaetlyn had the edge over Zagitova who collapsed at worlds that year.

It's the summer, there are very few news about skating and of course, it leads to epic threads that will never find conclusive answers (at least for me) . I guess I will go back to the topic of tennis, and watch Wimbledon, if it can stop raining in London !

 

[4everchan]

The AT part of GOAT means ALL Time. A one-season wonder is the opposite.

Funny how I replied to this in my earlier post... without seeing your post.

To me, it means the quality of programs and performances. Focusing on results leads to the title "most decorated." It's nice to be decorated but it is even nicer to deliver breath-taking skates time after time. If we bring up the topic of a composer's "body of work," or an artist's, or an actor's, we are not asking about how much applase he got and whether he was knighted by the queen.

Exactly. That's why, to me, it's not just the gold medal that counts but the skates leading up to it when trying to name a GOAT. I have a hard time appreciating some gold medalists over the decades that didn't win with an epic set of performances, and in the sport of figure skating, I find if even harder to do.

Chess champion Bobby Fischer once criticised one of his predecessor,s, Mikhail Botvinic for his pedestrian and unimaginative play. "But Bobby, he beat everyone there was to beat for twenty years!" Fischer's reply, "Just because someone is king for a long time doesn't make him a good king."

Well.. isn't that meaning that we could have better GOATs than others ? (confused)

I think that the reason for the term "most decorated" is that the question "who is the most decoraded" has a well-defined answer. It can be determined by simply counting (althogugh there might be a disagreement as to what exactly we should count). I think that is why serious chroniclers, as opposed to fans, lead off with "most decorated" and leave GOATS to the passions of partisans.

I agree. Most decorated seems objective, yet there is still the importance of the medal, or even the performance linked to the medal.

-back to Wimbledon... for good

 

[Mathman]

.Well.. isn't that meaning that we could have better GOATs than others ? (confused)

I think that Fischer was saying that just because you defended your title several times, that alone does not make you the GOAT. Ficher himself was a candidate for the GOAT of chess not only for winning a lot of tournamentss and matches but for playing with a vigorous attacking style that wielded great influence over the development of the game, as opposed to Botvinic's "boring" technique of nursing tiny little positional advantages along for 50 moves. (I personally do not find such technique "boring" -- quite the contrary.)

By the way, the old-time GOATs (pre-1950) always came down to a debate between the Cuban Jose Capablanca and Russian Alexander Alekhine -- and was usually settled on the basis that Capalanca had a gentlemanly, genial and expansive personality in civilian life while Alhekine was a mean and nastly bit of goods. (The true GOAT of chess is Gary Kasparov. )

Which brings me to...

-back to Wimbledon... for good

Nadal? Federer, Djokovic? Someone else?

Rod Laver, over a 24-year career spanning both the "amateur" and open eras, was ranked the #1 player in the world either 5 times as a pro (or 7, depending on what "official" meant back then) and twice as an amateur. He won the Grand Slam twice (1962 and 1969).(Federer 0, Nadal 0, Djokovic 0 -- they are not Steffi Graf after all. )

Anyway, the one thing I do definitely disagree with is the view that Federer (or Nadal) was a better tennis player than Djokovic because he were less taciturn and had a lot of adoring fans. To me, that is irrelevant in GOAT discussions.