The Greatest Of All Time

[Magill]

IMHO figure skating Olympic team event has been invented to make sure the big and powerful feds go home with some (more) medals - and have a good chance to carry home a gold - even if they fail to win fair and square where it matters, i.e. in the individual event, on equal terms, against the best of the best... The fact that it is only 3-4 feds who hold any medal chances to start with, no matter what, makes it an unimportant PR event to me - and, what's more important, to many skaters from smaller/weaker feds who do not even bother to participate.... - or simply cannot participate - ... which says it all, btw. Should your nationality matter when you are receiving a gold or not? Should the strength of your country in other disciplines decide if you receive a medal and what colour for your stellar performance in your discipline? Or give it to you while your individual performance puts you well behind top 5 or top 10 in your own discipline?
Sorry, guys, no way this event will ever be held equal to the individual event or team OGM will be equal to individual OGM.
And no way a GOAT can go without an individual OGM to me, and mostly to the general public. Because there is always this question - if we are to believe them the greatest of the great, why did they not manage to win an OGM? Apparently they were not the greatest after all on that day where it mattered the most. As no one will make me believe skaters, or athletes in general with the exception of few disciplines like tennis or soccer, do not value OGM more than any other medal. Winning Olympics is the biggest athletic dream. Which also says it all.

 

[Mathman]

The fact that it is only 3-4 feds who hold any medal chances to start with, no matter what, makes it an unimportant PR event to me - and, what's more important, to many skaters from smaller/weaker feds who do not even bother to participate.... - or simply cannot participate - ...

This is true in any Olympic team sport. There are only two or three countries who are going to win the team gymnastics competition in Paris this summer. There are only two or three countries who are going to win the 4x100 meter dash. There are only two or three countrries who are gong to win the gold medal in women's basketball.

Even in individual sports, there are only two or three countries that will prpoduce the champion in table tennis. Or singles badminton.

As for the smaller skating federations, I don't think that any ever "don't bother to participate." They are not represented because they do not qualify under hte ISU rules.

What can I say? Life isn't fair.

But on the question of whether an Olympic gold medal is a prerequisite for top honors in the GOAT contest, the reason that I hesitate is this. Every four years automatically brings a new set of Olympic medalists, willi-nilli, rain or shine, whether there are any exceptional performances or not. Same for a world championship. I admire the skater who skates lights out at the Olympics, but not necessary the one who happens to deliver the best of a mediocre lot of performances that year.

"I made fewer mistakes than the other guy" -- OK. you get the medal bu tnot necessarily our enthusiastic acclaim.

 

[Arigato]

As no one will make me believe skaters, or athletes in general with the exception of few disciplines like tennis or soccer, do not value OGM more than any other medal. Winning Olympics is the biggest athletic dream. Which also says it all.

Well, Rafa wanted one so he went and got gold. Of course.

 

[Magill]

"I made fewer mistakes than the other guy" -- OK. you get the medal bu not necessarily our enthusiastic acclaim.

Surely it does not make the case stronger for the other guy - the one with more mistakes - either.

 

[4everchan]

Patrick disappeared briefly between Skate Canada and Nationals. He was in a funk. Left M. Zueva and ended up being rescued by Ravi. Pretty much, he came back to win the team Gold. Everyone at Skate Canada, athletes included, went for it. The strategy was strongly played. Scott said he wanted to do it for Patrick too. At that points Patrick knew he wouldn't place very highly in singles. His training had been awful. He had put a lot of pressure on himself. Yet, he persevered and ended up tallying lots of points for team Canada, placing first even in the LP if I recal correctly. So, who says the team event doesn't matter to athletes? Does the team medal contribute to the credentials of the athletes? Of course. Why would it not count? Considering ROC's appeals for 2022, it is obvious it is an important medal for figure skaters. Some Fans may not value it but athletes do.

 

[Magill]

It was argued it is the quality of the performance and not the colour of the medals that counts . I understand it stands true for Patrick Chan all the same. None of Patrick's performances in any team event - including 2014, when he was at his prime - was of good quality, he had falls, multiple mistakes, non-memorable scores, in each one of them so - according to this line of argument - I see no reason why his team medals should count at all, no matter even what one thinks of the team event as such. Or this line of argument is just false and should not be applied to anyone.
I guess team gold surely means a lot to those who do not have an individual one, and to their fans. Still I do not think it should be taken into consideration in the GOAT discussion - no matter the quality of performance - because it does not depend on the athlete alone, but on the country they come from which they have no control of, no matter how great they individually are. Taking it into account would make the GOAT race unfair, making it biased towards skaters coming from the strongest feds to disadvantage of those who come to their full greatness despite all odds.
As for single champions, wasn't Yuzuru Hanyu a surprise-surprise OGM as to his nationality? And not just the first in history from his country, but from the whole continent?
Wasn't Yuna such a surprise-surprise champion for the ladies field?
Take Loena, a two-time world medallist (silver and bronze). First from her country. Good chances to podium also in the coming Olympics.
Or Javi, the first world champ and Olympic medallist from a country with not much skating tradition at all.
None of this could ever happen in a team event where the medals are mostly pre-decided and only their colours depend on what happens on the ice (and who's there and who's not). I cannot name any surprise fed as a team winner.
Figure skating is not a team sport (apart from synchro, but this is a different matter). That's why any team event made up of individual performances, in no way different from those we have seen and will see in individual events, feels fake and unimportant to me. They might just as well add up scores from individual events. Would be even way more fair, as at least everyone takes part there, and in both segments, and you need to run against the strongest contenders to win.

 

[Blades of Passion]

If two teams were evenly matched, with competitors in every discipline who are legitimate Gold-medal threats individually, and everyone on the winning team delivers, then it would actually be a legitimate Gold medal for all involved. But that has not been the case and it likely never will be. Someone will generally always get carried to the medal.

it is obvious it is an important medal for figure skaters.

It's so "important" that the highest ranked skaters don't even try to compete SP+LP most of the time, despite that being what anyone who wants to win something badly would do.

Everyone loves being given things that stroke their egos or help their careers. That doesn't mean the team medal is any relevant measurement of their individual performance or how their careers deserve to be ranked compared to other skaters. The only thing that matters are the performances themselves.

 

[4everchan]

If two teams were evenly matched, with competitors in every discipline who are legitimate Gold-medal threats individually, and everyone on the winning team delivers, then it would actually be a legitimate Gold medal for all involved. But that has not been the case and it likely never will be. Someone will generally always get carried to the medal.




It's so "important" that the highest ranked skaters don't even try to compete SP+LP most of the time, despite that being what anyone who wants to win something badly would do.

Everyone loves being given things that stroke their egos or help their careers. That doesn't mean the team medal is any relevant measurement of their individual performance or how their careers deserve to be ranked compared to other skaters. The only thing that matters are the performances themselves.

2018 virtue and moir did skate both segments. Same with Duhamel and radford. Patrick did both too.

2022 ROC only used their top skater in each discipline. I am pretty sure, the other skaters would have liked to compete but the FEd didn't want anything else but their top athletes .

 

[TallyT]

Everyone loves being given things that stroke their egos or help their careers. That doesn't mean the team medal is any relevant measurement of their individual performance or how their careers deserve to be ranked compared to other skaters. The only thing that matters are the performances themselves.

I don't think I'd go that far, they are still medals and podiums and additions to a list of palpable achievements. Just as Nationals medals are, even though we know perfectly well that some disciplines in some countries are way deeper (Japanese men for many years, Russian women the last two quads) and therefore someone who isn't even on the podium in one would win by a mile in another. And what value European gold versus 4CC, though both cover half the world? But the individual OG and Worlds are where everyone competes, big fed or small, and are judged (as far as is possible, which I admit can be dodgy given our judges and reputation scoring) on their own merits.

As in all things, it's a matter of balance. No one is going to refuse a team medal, no one who goes to WTT is not going to be chuffed with one, and they all look nice and impressive on the wiki page

 

[Mathman]

Surely it does not make the case stronger for the other guy - the one with more mistakes - either.

Quite so. But taking Yuzuru Hanyu as the poster boy, the reason he is the GOAT is not his perfromances at the Olympics, which were not the tip-top pf all his career skates. Just go to You Tube and you will see one dazzling and jaw-dropping performance after another, for instance at Grand Prix events. This is why he is the GOAT of modern figure skating.

Michelle Kwan won five world championships. Each one was a dazzling tour de force, especially the LPs. When her performance was not so strong, as in 1997 and 1999, someone else won. Fair enough.

To me, its a question of cause and effect. The performance is the cause, and that is what we applaud. The medal is the consequence. It is a pat on the head for having skated well.

 

[Mathman]

As for single champions, wasn't Yuzuru Hanyu a surprise-surprise OGM as to his nationality? And not just the first in history from his country, but from the whole continent?
Wasn't Yuna such a surprise-surprise champion for the ladies field?

Neither of these was a surprise. Chan was the favorite in 2014 as the reigning world champion. but there was plenty of buzz about the new kid on the block who was coming on like gangbusters. If there was a surprise, it came in 2018 when Nathan Chen was on the rise, but did not match his promise in the SP (to put it mildly).

As for Yuna Kim, no surprise there whatsoever. It was Mao and Yuna from the get-go, already (in 2010). They had won everything in sight since juniors and were well along the road to being goatified.

 

[TallyT]

Quite so. But taking Yuzuru Hanyu as the poster boy, the reason he is the GOAT is not his perfromances at the Olympics, which were not the tip-top pf all his career skates. Just go to You Tube and you will see one dazzling and jaw-dropping performance after another, for instance at Grand Prix events. This is why he is the GOAT of modern figure skating.

Michelle Kwan won five world championships. Each one was a dazzling tour de force, especially the LPs. When her performance was not so strong, as in 1997 and 1999, someone else won. Fair enough.

To me, its a question of cause and effect. The performance is the cause, and that is what we applaud. The medal is the consequence. It is a pat on the head for having skated well.

I think we would have to include two Olympic performances though - the 100-point-cracking Parisian Walkways at Sochi and that stunning comeback from injury that was Chopin in 2018 (and the Seimei, though not quite perfect, set the fairytale firmly in place. A good legend has to have some drama, after all Although I have never been a Chen fan, the nearest I ever got to getting him was that drama-laden redemption free). And then there is the 2017 Worlds with Hope and Legacy...

But (trying to widen my unblushingly one-eyed focus here) I admit that Kwan fills me with respect and admiration, but not a particle of the love I feel for say Sasha Cohen - no, not a GOAT, thought surely a legend, She just has something that for me greater and more celebrated and winning skaters lack. It's very hard to separate oneself from bias when looking at the less tangibles like artistry or even the tangibles which are endlessly disputable like skating skills or even quality and style of jumps. I guess that is where the cold hard facts of the wikipedia/ISU pages comes in handy, they ground me in what the facts actually are.

 

[Magill]

Neither of these was a surprise. Chan was the favorite in 2014 as the reigning world champion. but there was plenty of buzz about the new kid on the block who was coming on like gangbusters. If there was a surprise, it came in 2018 when Nathan Chen was on the rise, but did not match his promise in the SP (to put it mildly).

As for Yuna Kim, no surprise there whatsoever. It was Mao and Yuna from the get-go, already (in 2010). They had won everything in sight since juniors and were well along the road to being goatified.

I did not mean a surprise coming at the moment of winning, that could have been expected, rather a surprise that a rightful contender was coming from outside of the big winning feds which in itself was a surprise, although happened much earlier than the win itself.

 

[Magill]

I think we would have to include two Olympic performances though - the 100-point-cracking Parisian Walkways at Sochi and that stunning comeback from injury that was Chopin in 2018 (and the Seimei, though not quite perfect, set the fairytale firmly in place. A good legend has to have some drama, after all Although I have never been a Chen fan, the nearest I ever got to getting him was that drama-laden redemption free). And then there is the 2017 Worlds with Hope and Legacy...

But (trying to widen my unblushingly one-eyed focus here) I admit that Kwan fills me with respect and admiration, but not a particle of the love I feel for say Sasha Cohen - no, not a GOAT, thought surely a legend, She just has something that for me greater and more celebrated and winning skaters lack. It's very hard to separate oneself from bias when looking at the less tangles like artistry or even the tangibles which are endlessly disputable like skating skills or even quality and style of jumps. I guess that is where the cold hard facts of the wikipedia/ISU pages comes in handy, they ground me in what the facts actually are.

This. Totally. Double Olympic gold, the first one in 66 years and the only one in 72 years, was won with 3 (yes, three!) iconic performances.
1. Parisienne Walkways SP, World Record breaking (or the highest SP score ever up till then), the first to break 100-points-barrier in the history of the sport. 2. Tip-top perfect Chopin SP, one of the highest SP scores at the time, just 1 point short of the historic world record at the time, also belonging to Yuzuru. 3. And iconic Seimei, not tip-top perfect but with no major mistakes, a wobby landing and an epic save, and still probably most iconic of the three. One of the most iconic, most watched and most loved programmes ever. I mean, ever
Hope and Legacy from 2017 Worlds, OTOH, was not just an epic performance, but it is also the historic highest score (or world record, depending on the terms you choose to use) for men's Free Skate in that phase of the sport's history....

 

[Mathman]

Patrick disappeared briefly between Skate Canada and Nationals. He was in a funk. Left M. Zueva and ended up being rescued by Ravi. Pretty much, he came back to win the team Gold. Everyone at Skate Canada, athletes included, went for it. The strategy was strongly played. Scott said he wanted to do it for Patrick too...

I think it is best, in these discussions, to keep the focus on the actual skating. Whether someone is a funk or whether a team is inspired to "win one for the Gipper," is not really a skating credential. Nor is having a pleasant personality, attracting a lot of fans, contributing time and money to charitable causes and so on. I think we should narrow the GOAT focus to who was the best skater.

As for medal count, that is a post facto indicator of having skated well many times, but not a determinant.

 

[Mathman]

1. Parisienne Walkways SP, World Record breaking (or the highest SP score ever up till then), the first to break 100-points-barrier in the history of the sport.

Again, to me we should be looking at the You Tube of this performance for hints as to why is deserves our praise. The point total can be offered as confirmation (if we need it) that, yes, this really was a good skate. But we don't need points to tell us that this was a masterful performance, nor do lots of points -- in and of themselves -- make it so. YMMD, of course.

 

[4everchan]

Then, I posted already based on who I believe are the best.

I think it is best, in these discussions, to keep the focus on the actual skating. Whether someone is a funk or whether a team is inspired to "win one for the Gipper," is not really a skating credential. Nor is having a pleasant personality, attracting a lot of fans, contributing time and money to charitable causes and so on. I think we should narrow the GOAT focus to who was the best skater.

As for medal count, that is a post facto indicator of having skated well many times, but not a determinant.

 

[Blades of Passion]

2018 virtue and moir did skate both segments. Same with Duhamel and radford. Patrick did both too.

2022 ROC only used their top skater in each discipline.

And yet in 2014 Patrick didn't compete both segments. Volosozhar/Trankov didn't do both. Nathan Chen never did both. Hanyu never competed both, he didn't do ANY segment in 2018 or 2022. Because the team event is the lesser event.

It's when people have less/no chance as an individual that the team event becomes a priority. Because yes, any medal is nice to have on a resume, and among wider audiences not many people will know or care that you were carried to a medal in the team event. But It really has no bearing on a more critical analysis of how great a skater is.

The especially annoying thing is there are so few opportunities for skaters to get medals, and a lot of people don't even have the option of trying to get an extra medal in the team event, since they aren't from a competitive country. It unfairly skews the medal counts when trying to use it as some determining factor. Bobrova/Soloviev are 2-time Olympic medalists, including a Gold, thanks to the team event...but it's very *whatever*

 

[Mathman]

Then, I posted already based on who I believe are the best.

Those posts (back on page 6 for example) presented your strongest argument. Patrick started with marvelous blade to ice skills, added quads as appropriate, then grew in performance and musical interpretation to point the way toward what a complete and balanced men's program could be.

That's the ticket!.

 

[Blades of Passion]

then grew in performance and musical interpretation

Not the phrasing I would use. His 2011-2014 era programs are some his worst artistically IMO. That's what made it so infuriating when he got much higher PCS than others, especially for sloppy programs.