What are your thoughts on the depth of Pair Skating?

[Diana Delafield]

My thoughts on the depth of Pairs skating at this moment is that there is none. Pairs used to be my favorite discipline, but at this point I barely watch it. It all pretty much looks that same right down to the frequently botched triples. I'm not saying that no current Pair is ever any good, I just think that there are too many required elements leading to a total lack of any artistic vision, most pairs cannot reliably do side by side triples, and too many of the lifts are just plain fugly.

I agree. I haven't been weighing in on this as I don't watch enough of the competitions to know who most of the current pairs are. In the era after I stopped competing, from the late 1980s to the early 2000s, I avidly watched all the competitions available on Canadian TV and taped everything. My several recreational partners and I used those videotapes to pick up ideas for transitional moves, footwork sequences, spin variations, etc. Somehow these days, though, as a "vintage" pairs skater, I seem to have gone back to my early years of being more of a skater and less of a spectator. But I think a lot of that is for your reasons -- too predictable, very little variety, only sporadic attempts to actually interpret the music. The need to perform so many elements forced the need to cut down on the length of the programs, to avoid accidents from exhaustion, which has just compounded the deterioration of most programs into "cramming lots of chopped-up bits into the time allowed".

And those really ugly lifts, where she just ties herself into a pretzel around his hands! When I was learning lifts, back in the dawn of time, our coach emphasized that the purpose of a lift was for him to make her look as if she was soaring above the ice on her own. The audience was supposed to barely notice him. My favourite lift is still a basic no-hands platter on a rising crescendo of the music. That would be considered a timewaster today in competition, but my current partner and I are working up a club-show program to the score of Life is Beautiful, and just listening to the main theme, I could hear exactly where I would be taking off into a platter (with a big smile spontaneously breaking out every time, and how often do you see that on the woman's face now !)

 

[Jammers]

My thoughts on the depth of Pairs skating at this moment is that there is none. Pairs used to be my favorite discipline, but at this point I barely watch it. It all pretty much looks that same right down to the frequently botched triples. I'm not saying that no current Pair is ever any good, I just think that there are too many required elements leading to a total lack of any artistic vision, most pairs cannot reliably do side by side triples, and too many of the lifts are just plain fugly.

Well let's face it the US has had to do almost total rebuild of it's Pairs division considering that in the last year or so they have been competing without their top 5 teams from just a couple of seasons ago. They went from having the most depth outside of Russia by the end of the 2022 season to being decimated by early retirements and breakups. The one veteran team expected to carry the US during this rebuild C/H have been no shows for the last 18 months because of injury.

 

[lariko]

I feel that removal of Russians worked both ways. While the most accomplished pairs like Mishina/Galliamov and Boikova/Kozlovskii are not on the international arena, and nobody who doesn't watch internal competitions have any idea how good say Osokina/Gritzaenko or Chikmareva/Yanchenkov or Mukhortova/Evgen'ev are, Russians partnered to help build up teams for other nations, with Pavlova/Svyatchenko and Hasse/Volodin being the most noticeable. But there are 2 or 3 ex-Russian teams that will start their international career this year as well as quite a few partnerships.

Personally, this year, I am most curious about Kostornaya's career as a pair skater and how the duo of Kadyrova/Mironov would work out.

My favorite duos for the past two seasons are Boikova/Kozlovskii and Mukhortova/Evgen'yev.

I have some interest in international division, but mostly JGPF and GPF level/quality skaters. Overall, for me, the pool is pretty deep, since I watch both the Russians and the internationals. However, like in all things, silo'ing ain't most conductive to growth.

 

[4everchan]

Some of the remarks/complaints about the cookie cutter programs and predictable elements have, in my humble opinion, no relevance with the current pairs competing but rather, the ISU code of points. They shortened the LP, removed some elements, lowered the base value of quads, pushed the axel sequence etc.. So yeah, the ISU is responsible for the lack of creative programs... Put in the mix great pairs of the past and I don't expect they would fare any better with the current rules.

For instance, what made D/R exciting to watch, their quads, their SBS jumps... now, a triple lutz is lower in value to a simple 2a-2a sequence... the quad throws are things of the past... etc

D/R were always trying to push the envelope (so did Sui/Han with their quad twist and S/M with the throw triple axel they were working on)... and since all teams had different strengths, we did get a better variety of elements...

Nowaways, a standard pairs program will include
SBS 3S, 3T-2a-2a
Throws, 3loop and 3salchow (some teams go the lutz and flip but everyone does the loop)
etc...

teams can only be creative with lift... very few teams do so... Max and Deanna and Kam and O'Shea are probably the only two teams with fantastic lifts (honorable mention to P/F) or with the death spiral...

But again, bring back the top 3 or 4 top teams from the previous decade and they would be stuck with those rules too.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Well let's face it the US has had to do almost total rebuild of it's Pairs division considering that in the last year or so they have been competing without their top 5 teams from just a couple of seasons ago. They went from having the most depth outside of Russia by the end of the 2022 season to being decimated by early retirements and breakups. The one veteran team expected to carry the US during this rebuild C/H have been no shows for the last 18 months because of injury.

U.S. pairs is not decimated. Even when U.S. pairs was in its lean, major podium drought years, there were some very good teams, a few who set technical records and were competitive in the mid-tier, such as Inoue/ Baldwin; Evora/ Ladwig; Vise/ Trent; Marley/ Brubaker; Castelli/ Shnapir, et.al. This is just a drop in the bucket of all the important teams who came before the most recent U.S. champions who have passed the baton to a new generation. There is a huge legacy that U.S. pairs skaters should be proud of and encouraged to build upon.

Danny O'Shea is from the previous generation and it's wonderful to see him coaching while continuing to flourish competitively. Ellie & Danny have been good together from the start. Ellie was just recently out of juniors and also fairly new to pairs so she was still learning the difficult pairs triple throws and jumps. Danny has been supportive and patient and they have worked very hard to reach a new level of confidence. As fans, of course, it's hard not to want perfect results every time, all the time. But sometimes, as fans, we should try to take some time out to just smell the roses, and to be appreciative of the hard work of athletes.

There's so much to discuss and so much happening, I am finding it hard to keep up with it all. It would be somewhat easier if competitions were made more available. Surely, we can see that pairs is in one of its new generation cycles and there are a lot of very good teams (Lombardia and Nebelhorn are proof of all the hungry pairs teams vying for the podium --so many teams are showing positive development since 2022). At the moment, yes, there's not as much depth in pairs worldwide as there is in ice dance. But that's due to many factors. While the numbers/ scores can be interesting to look at in tandem with the rules changes, I am more interested in witnessing how skaters and choreographers overcome the challenges of a poor and constantly changing rules system coupled with complicated fluctuations and inconsistencies in scoring.

In general, I think all the disciplines are hidebound by lack of strong leadership and vision within the ISU. And in any case, pairs is the hardest discipline. It's difficult to keep two people together as a team from a young age up through a successful senior career. So many factors are involved. The sport is not doing enough to support and encourage skaters. For example, if they can't find a way to at least allow skaters and teams who don't make the sp/RD cuts to at least still compete their second programs in a small, informal format, even if without a viewing audience or full broadcast coverage, then what's the point of them spending time and money to put together fps/FDs? There is a huge lack of incentive and motivation for skaters, if they are continually faced with few or none opportunities to grow.

The U.S. right now has numerous promising teams in pairs, and especially in ice dance. So many that they are having trouble giving them all enough competitive opportunities. And get this: there will be too many developing pairs teams cut from competing at 2025 Nationals. I am looking forward to seeing Wessenberg/Caputo; Fredette/ Siianytsia; Korytek/Chapman; Martins/ Bedard; Cooke/Kennedy; Williams/ Lewer; et al. Only so many teams are going to make the Nationals cut. I'm sure Audrey & Balazs will make Nationals since U.S. fed put them together and are strongly backing them. Anyway, let's try to be supportive of the pairs discipline in ways that we can. It's a tough battle in a sport that demands so much but does not give enough nurturing to its skaters, forget about the ISU giving a hoot about the desires and needs of fans.

 

[saine]

For example, if they can't find a way to at least allow skaters and teams who don't make the sp/RD cuts to at least still compete their second programs in a small, informal format, even if without a viewing audience or full broadcast coverage, then what's the point of them spending time and money to put together fps/FDs? There is a huge lack of incentive and motivation for skaters, if they are continually faced with few or none opportunities to grow.

I feel so bad for the teams at Europeans and JWC who don't make the free when there are only 18 teams competing. They should have more teams in the free for Pairs, at least match Worlds with top 20.

(4CC too, but they need to get to the point where they can have a cutoff for Pairs too.)

 

[lariko]

Omigod, you gotta see Boikova/Kozlovski's program for this year! Holy....depth. Holy cow outstanding.

 

[uandmfan]

I agree. I haven't been weighing in on this as I don't watch enough of the competitions to know who most of the current pairs are. In the era after I stopped competing, from the late 1980s to the early 2000s, I avidly watched all the competitions available on Canadian TV and taped everything. My several recreational partners and I used those videotapes to pick up ideas for transitional moves, footwork sequences, spin variations, etc. Somehow these days, though, as a "vintage" pairs skater, I seem to have gone back to my early years of being more of a skater and less of a spectator. But I think a lot of that is for your reasons -- too predictable, very little variety, only sporadic attempts to actually interpret the music. The need to perform so many elements forced the need to cut down on the length of the programs, to avoid accidents from exhaustion, which has just compounded the deterioration of most programs into "cramming lots of chopped-up bits into the time allowed".

And those really ugly lifts, where she just ties herself into a pretzel around his hands! When I was learning lifts, back in the dawn of time, our coach emphasized that the purpose of a lift was for him to make her look as if she was soaring above the ice on her own. The audience was supposed to barely notice him. My favourite lift is still a basic no-hands platter on a rising crescendo of the music. That would be considered a timewaster today in competition, but my current partner and I are working up a club-show program to the score of Life is Beautiful, and just listening to the main theme, I could hear exactly where I would be taking off into a platter (with a big smile spontaneously breaking out every time, and how often do you see that on the woman's face now !)

I totally agree. I was just thinking the other day I miss a really good one handed star lift where the woman looks like she's flying. I've always loved pairs lifts but it feels like everything has to be so complicated now that they've lost the beauty. And really some of the wow factor because they look so laboured.

 

[TontoK]

I think it's important to differentiate between "depth" and "quality." And even "interestingness."

I think the field as a whole may/may not be as deep or as good as years past, but I think the discipline is more interesting. I gave up watching pairs for many years because it was just a boring discipline. Maybe I'd catch the top team on replay, but that was about it. IJS pretty much makes sure that everyone is doing the same element, and the programs weren't varied enough to catch my attention.

Of course, the programs still all contain the same elements, but I think skaters have done a better job of delivering the content with better choreography and composition. We can still pretty much count on the first three elements being the twist, SBS jumps, and a throw... but at least I'm seeing more variety in the programs taken as a whole.

I've gone from virtually ignoring pairs skating to watching as much of the SPs as I can, and as much of the FPs as time will allow.

Caveat: Seniors only. I still pretend junior skating doesn't exist for the most part.

 

[FaustinaF]

Interesting thread!
I do state that pair skating is not the discipline I use to follow the most, but in my opinion I believe generally there has been a little descending line in the last season in pair skating. It's a brilliant distinction the one TontoK has done, about "depth", "quality" and "interestingness", so I will expose my thoughts on the same way. If I think about depth, at the present I see pair skating at the risk of expressing less feelings than the past. On the other hand, there is an improved technique quality which focuses (too much according to me) on jumps, spirals and liftings. There is, yes, a great variety of styles and characters, but I guess there's a missing of something "deeper" in expressions and feelings, a lack or artistry. Many couples at the highest rank has retired, and this means that there is still a great hole to be filled. I mean, now there are great pairs working on every skating detail, also on expressivity, who were already on the highest rank (look at Deanna Stellato-Dudek/Deschampes, Conti/Macii, Boikova/Kozlovski, ecc) or recently reached it, but the hole is large and I guess we should wait an year or two to see more couples at the height of the retired ones and at the level of the mentioned pairs, and greater improvements for others. This however exites me, I can't wait to see them all competing this season

 

[TontoK]

@FaustinaF Your post is interesting.

I was interpreting "depth" to mean "more competitive pairs teams" rather than "emotionally engaging."

But the discussion works with either definition.

 

[lariko]

I am also interpreting depth as the number of pairs overall & how many skater partnerships are in each tier (i.e. vying for top 3, top 6 and top 10). but, for sure, the two are connected, because stronger competition leads to higher mastery and higher mastery results in more room for expression.

Personally, I love all the elements of the pair skating, lifts, throws, twists and sbs jumps and spins, because honestly, they showcase incredible reliance of two partners on one another under the stakes that are extreme. The achievement on the highest level is breathtaking. Unfortunately, on the lower levels pair skating is far less engaging. In ice dance, the absence of mastery is easy to miss or ignore if the duo grabs with energy or originality (who can really call the Y/N keypoint? Basically nobody). In pair skating, the scissor is super-wide. Closing it will combine ID with pairs. I can go either or.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Omigod, you gotta see Boikova/Kozlovski's program for this year! Holy....depth. Holy cow outstanding.

Umm, link please.

 

[aroundtheworld778]

Omigod, you gotta see Boikova/Kozlovski's program for this year! Holy....depth. Holy cow outstanding.

The Kill Bill program? I absolutely loved it.

 

[lariko]

The Kill Bill program? I absolutely loved it.

Both...I'm smitten.

 

[aroundtheworld778]

Umm, link please.

You have to translate to Russian first and it comes up on youtube.

 

[Skater Boy]

Right now the pairs competing on the world scene are not of the quality or character of top teams in the past. Some are pretty good but very simple choreography. Almost all lack technical content compared to say Duhael and Radford or particular explosive twists or spectacular lifts or throws. None have the amazing style of Gordeeva and Grinkov or even Dimitri and his partners ore B and S.. They do not even have the perfection of say Shen and Zhou or Totimaiana and Marin. The fact that the current world champion has a courageous 40 year old says a lot. Not to take away from Deanna.

 

[Weathergal]

Right now the pairs competing on the world scene are not of the quality or character of top teams in the past. Some are pretty good but very simple choreography. Almost all lack technical content compared to say Duhael and Radford or particular explosive twists or spectacular lifts or throws. None have the amazing style of Gordeeva and Grinkov or even Dimitri and his partners ore B and S.. They do not even have the perfection of say Shen and Zhou or Totimaiana and Marin. The fact that the current world champion has a courageous 40 year old says a lot. Not to take away from Deanna.

But when you say that, you ARE taking away from Deanna.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Right now the pairs competing on the world scene are not of the quality or character of top teams in the past. Some are pretty good but very simple choreography. Almost all lack technical content compared to say Duhael and Radford or particular explosive twists or spectacular lifts or throws. None have the amazing style of Gordeeva and Grinkov or even Dimitri and his partners ore B and S.. They do not even have the perfection of say Shen and Zhou or Totimaiana and Marin. The fact that the current world champion has a courageous 40 year old says a lot. Not to take away from Deanna.

LOL. What is your actual point here though? Skating in every discipline is different from decades ago. You can actually watch videos of the teams you mention whom you seem to be missing.

There's no need to trash current pairs teams. The pairs discipline is going through a transition period. Since I enjoy watching pairs, I find it interesting to witness the increased development and improvement of teams from two seasons ago, such as the top British and Philippines teams. It is also exciting to see different teams in contention at the top and no one team or country always dominating.

 

[aroundtheworld778]

LOL. What is your actual point here though? Skating in every discipline is different from decades ago. You can actually watch videos of the teams you mention whom you seem to be missing.

There's no need to trash current pairs teams. The pairs discipline is going through a transition period. Since I enjoy watching pairs, I find it interesting to witness the increased development and improvement of teams from two seasons ago, such as the top British and Philippines teams. It is also exciting to see different teams in contention at the top and no one team or country always dominating.

Exactly, the fact that we are expanding boundaries countrywise and agewise in pairs should be seen as a plus.
Just recently Aliona K said she was inspired by Deanna and wants to skate for as long as she can. So Aliona might break the mold in Russia, the pairs powerhouse, thanks to this new reality.
Alexander Korovin said he saw his participation with the Philippines as a new challenge. A new culture and two new languages, a new citizenship, the first Southasian pair to medal in competition, and his partner Isabella will be the first EVER female Filipino athlete in any sport in a Winter Olympic Games if the pair makes it to Milan. I'd like to see that any day rather than a quad twist.