Is Grand Prix series ready to downsize to 5 events?

[4everchan]

True. Althhough I think that there was a certain "smeness" in every era of skating. Almost all of the competitors skated to similar music, explored similar chorepgraphic themes. presented more or less the same technical content ("more" if they could).

In fact, all sports are like that. Is one football game all that different from another. Is one hundred- dash distinguished in some delightful and entertainoing way from others?

i agree but we are on a spiral now.. since about 2014... cutting time and adding quads.

 

[Anna K.]

Is one football game all that different from another.

Yes, they are. In football (I mean soccer) every game is different. There are exciting games, boring games, surprising games, predictable games... All games start 11 vs 11, nobody knows how it will go. And, if there has been a string of boring games, nobody yells "crop the number of events, nobody can save us". Everybody says "can you believe in that frickin' coincidence?" I guess it refers to all team sports more or less but football is the king (I can talk about it for hours but I will stop here).
Same with biathlon. Cards get tossed at every shooting round but a lead all way long can also happen. There is one million scenarios how it can go.
These sports are popular. Track and field disciplines are less popular but they have other strengths. So, one hundred meter dash has simple rules and only lasts a few seconds. It can hardly cause problems for first-time viewers. Soccer rules are complicated, it may take time to adjust.

Why am I saying this? Because people who watch figure skating only do not realize how monotonous it is in the light of other sports - the "popstar stuff" and "exciting duels" including. And vice versa: people from other sports do not realize how much nuance skating fans see in this "monotonousness". I'm sorry, but first-time viewers mostly do not notice even a difference between a quad and a tripple. It was possible in the past when rotations were slower but not with modern jumps.
Modern figure skating needs commentary, a lot of qualified commentary. Either this will help or nothing will help.

 

[DancingCactus]

You know, I would love to see a Grand Prix live at some point. But I have other hobbies too, and work and I can't justify flying to some random place in Estonia or to whatever place the French GP is being held in that year for three days. I wish they rotated 2-3 of the GPs through major European cities. That way they also could attract new people because it would be convenient to just check out that major figure skating event that happens to be in your city. It worked that way with other sports events that were held in Munich.

 

[gkelly]

Modern figure skating needs commentary, a lot of qualified commentary. Either this will help or nothing will help.

I wish there were some way that broadcasts -- not just commentary but something about the video itself -- could make clearer the differences in skating quality that are much more obvious to live observers.

It's all too easy for broadcasts to focus on jump content and execution, giving the impression that that is all that really counts in determining winners. And these are often the most obvious technical details for new viewers to latch onto.
Commentators also often focus on the artistic aspects of performance that viewers can appreciate for themselves the same way they enjoy competitive (or otherwise) dance shows on TV.

But how can broadcasts help viewers to understand the experience of viewing speed across the ice? Commentators sometimes mention it, but would it help if there were some way to measure average and maximum ice speed throughout a program, in and out of jumps but also through step sequences and choreo sequences and in-between skating in general? Someday maybe those measurements could be incorporated into the scoring itself, but if broadcasts could just list those numbers on the screen, that might provide information about why some skaters score higher across the board than others, which might not otherwise be evident on video.

Even better if the camerawork could somehow give viewers the experience of seeing differences in speed for themselves.
The trick would be not allowing the camerawork misrepresent the differences by using camera techniques that enhance the sense of speed for some skaters but not others.

Similarly, how could broadcasts give a better sense of the way that skaters carve deep curves into the ice and curve and turn in different directions and with difficult techniques of changing direction?

Most of that is there for viewers who already know what they're watching to see. But too many closeups can obscure those details.

And how could commentary encourage new viewers to understand what they're seeing in terms of the ways skaters move across the ice, so that they can start learning about skating technique, and how it's judged, at the same time that they start learning about jump technique and scoring criteria?

 

[Zora]

The focus is on getting points : jumps. It makes all programs the same

But is that really the problem? There has always been a focus on jumps and still skaters had exciting programs. I think it's more the artistic vision that skaters and choreographers currently have. Skating to monotonous music, ballads, no tempo changes, no variety in one program. Like it has to be one homogenous piece of art. But when everyone is trying this style, it makes competitions dull. There's also so much gangly skating around these days. Footwork sequences have become ridiculous with lots of sliding, lunges etc. But is that really the fault of the ISU or just skaters copying each other?

Best example I can think of is Aliona Savchenko. Back then with Robin Szolkowy they had many fun, creative programs. Later with Bruno Massot they chose the same monotonous style for their free programs that everyone's been using at that time. And this motivated even more pairs to use this style. I stopped watching pairs after this.

 

[DancingCactus]

Personally I always found Aliona and Robin unbearable. Might be one of the reasons they never took off in the German public. The costumes were...a choice.

I also think the mix of weepy ballads + monotous classical music is a problem.

 

[Karoltyna]

Personally I always found Aliona and Robin unbearable. Might be one of the reasons they never took off in the German public. The costumes were...a choice.

I also think the mix of weepy ballads + monotous classical music is a problem.

TBH I can bear the classical programs only when skating skills are impecable. I remeber times when vocals weren't allowed and almost every lady had to become the swan sooner or later and I thought the change was for the better. This also matters if they want to drive younger audience to the fs. They want to see things that are relatable to them, not the swans of Cherbourg...

 

[DancingCactus]

Do teenagers or whoever they are targetting at the moment like whiny, mumbling men and pseudo rock by the likes of Coldplay and Imagine Dragons? For that mater, are the skaters into it? I can buy Japanese guys being into classical music, but that Western schlock?

 

[4everchan]

But is that really the problem? There has always been a focus on jumps and still skaters had exciting programs. I think it's more the artistic vision that skaters and choreographers currently have. Skating to monotonous music, ballads, no tempo changes, no variety in one program. Like it has to be one homogenous piece of art. But when everyone is trying this style, it makes competitions dull. There's also so much gangly skating around these days. Footwork sequences have become ridiculous with lots of sliding, lunges etc. But is that really the fault of the ISU or just skaters copying each other?

Best example I can think of is Aliona Savchenko. Back then with Robin Szolkowy they had many fun, creative programs. Later with Bruno Massot they chose the same monotonous style for their free programs that everyone's been using at that time. And this motivated even more pairs to use this style. I stopped watching pairs after this.

There are many things in your post. Of course, saying it's just the jumps is not the whole problem but to me, it's the main factor.

Of course, there has always been a focus on jumping BUT
Back then,
-there were 2 step sequences... now, only one.
-the step sequences were really more like what we see in ice dance with the Choreographic Character Step Sequence. Skaters were dancing to their music with a variety of steps ... now it's just "let's do as many lunges and turns possible to get level 4"
-the LP is shorter now... and the time to set up for quads is much longer so when you do combine both factors you get : crossovers/quad repeat three times... then you get an easier jump in 4th place for some skaters... then everyone does a spin or one sequence... to get to the second half where the quadsters have saved their easier quads, others backload combos, and weaker jumper are just finishing up with their triples... to get to the final sequence and spin(s).

This is why it all looks the same... the music is just an accessory part of the program. There is very little story telling (a few skaters get into a character still but they are rare. Most of them just get alive in the last minute of the program when jumps have been done.

- the lack of skating skills is flagrant : skaters no longer train hours on figures. The last ones doing so, Patrick Chan, Jeremy Abbott were truly wonderful artists of the blades... the generation just after...let's say they had different qualities. If the skating skills are limited, the interpretation will be as well.

It was very refreshing to see Rino Matsuike this weekend : her control of the edges was so impressive and yet, she was mesmerizing to watch as she showed so many different things in her skating.

So it's many factors, but in the end, it's really because the skaters, to be competitive need the jump first and foremost. Look at Yuma, I really adore his skating but the extra quad flip he is trying to add to his program to remain in the race means about 40 seconds of wasted choreo, before and after to recuperate. That's a lot in a 4 minute program... and yet, he still had 3 more quads after that.

 

[Karoltyna]

Do teenagers or whoever they are targetting at the moment like whiny, mumbling men and pseudo rock by the likes of Coldplay and Imagine Dragons? For that mater, are the skaters into it? I can buy Japanese guys being into classical music, but that Western schlock?

TBH my boy likes Imagine Dragons - they used it for Sonic OST but he is also into Dschinghis Khan, so probably not good example... I think they think that judges are into such music

 

[4everchan]

Do teenagers or whoever they are targetting at the moment like whiny, mumbling men and pseudo rock by the likes of Coldplay and Imagine Dragons? For that mater, are the skaters into it? I can buy Japanese guys being into classical music, but that Western schlock?

Part of my points accusing jumps = skaters work less and less and less on skating skills and performance skills... So the choreo pick boring music... it can be used as a plain canvas for the limited interpretative skills of their skaters.

 

[gkelly]

I think a lot of skaters probably choose music with moderate tempos throughout and not much dynamic variation because they find it easier to stay calm and execute their elements in that tempo. Maybe they're not interested in interpreting more complex music at all. Or maybe they can do a good job with music in an exhibition skate, but not when they have to worry about landing difficult jumps and earning higher levels.

That may even be true of ice dancers who choose lyrical music for their free dances so they can focus on edge quality and earning levels, although they all need to be able to skate to rhythms in the rhythm dance.

Personally, I have been enjoying a lot of men's programs this year, because many of them do manage to perform interesting step sequences, and choreographic sequences in the free skate, to music with sometimes complex rhythms.
The first half of the program that's often all about setting up jumps is more boring to me.

 

[Karoltyna]

Part of my points accusing jumps = skaters work less and less and less on skating skills and performance skills... So the choreo pick boring music... it can be used as a plain canvas for the limited interpretative skills of their skaters.

Crossovers, crossovers, kick the leg, some more crossovers, jump

 

[gkelly]

Crossovers, crossovers, kick the leg, some more crossovers, jump

This was actually quite common before IJS. Especially 1990s-early 2000s, post-figures and when jump content became much more important.

 

[4everchan]

I think a lot of skaters probably choose music with moderate tempos throughout and not much dynamic variation because they find it easier to stay calm and execute their elements in that tempo. Maybe they're not interested in interpreting more complex music at all. Or maybe they can do a good job with music in an exhibition skate, but not when they have to worry about landing difficult jumps and earning higher levels.

That may even be true of ice dancers who choose lyrical music for their free dances so they can focus on edge quality and earning levels, although they all need to be able to skate to rhythms in the rhythm dance.

Personally, I have been enjoying a lot of men's programs this year, because many of them do manage to perform interesting step sequences, and choreographic sequences in the free skate, to music with sometimes complex rhythms.
The first half of the program that's often all about setting up jumps is more boring to me.

Last paragraph : I agree that some skaters do a great job at the end...But it is long to watch three minutes of a jumping drill before anything much happens.

 

[Mathman]

But how can broadcasts help viewers to understand the experience of viewing speed across the ice?

The problem with watching on TV instead of in person in the arena is that the TV cameras are mounted on robot arms with up to 6 degrees of freedom. The camera swivels around, changing the angle against the background of the boards and distorting the skater's apparent speed across the ice.

Likewise for spins. All spins appear to "travel" on TV. The spin isn't traveling, the camera is traveling.

As for bladework, I don't think that the average casual viewer knows enough about skating basics to appreciate things like depth and security of edge, much less small moves in the field. I think that viewres are more im[pressed by graceful upper body movements. Like a duck, serene and elegant above the water, paddling like crazy below.

 

[Mathman]

I think a lot of skaters probably choose music with moderate tempos throughout and not much dynamic variation because they find it easier to stay calm and execute their elements in that tempo.

The old formula was pretty standard, too. A medium tempo opening section for the majority of jumps. Then a musically unrelated "slow part" (imaginatively called The Slow Part) where they stroked around catching their breath), then a presto dash to the finish (ending with a ta-da scratch spin).

BY the way, I have to say that I rather enjoyed the telegraphing of highlight elements in those days. Todd Eldredge's first element was always his triple Axel, featuring an elaborate and lengthy set-up that proclaimed, "here is comes. fplks, wait for it... wait for it...BOOM." Like a Dostoevsky suspense novel where the author makes you believe, "Something astonishing is about to happen, nay, it IS happening right now, right before your very eyes!"

Edit: This jump (Mikhail Kolyda) is often cited as the best quad Lutz of all time.

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Unfortunately for Mikhail, it was the solo jump in the short program and he received 0 GOE because there were no connecting steps preceeding the jump. It was as if the skater said to the ISU, nuts to that, I am going to show you the finest example of a quad Lutz you have ever seen.

 

[Diana Delafield]

I wish there were some way that broadcasts -- not just commentary but something about the video itself -- could make clearer the differences in skating quality that are much more obvious to live observers.

It's all too easy for broadcasts to focus on jump content and execution, giving the impression that that is all that really counts in determining winners. And these are often the most obvious technical details for new viewers to latch onto.
Commentators also often focus on the artistic aspects of performance that viewers can appreciate for themselves the same way they enjoy competitive (or otherwise) dance shows on TV.

But how can broadcasts help viewers to understand the experience of viewing speed across the ice? Commentators sometimes mention it, but would it help if there were some way to measure average and maximum ice speed throughout a program, in and out of jumps but also through step sequences and choreo sequences and in-between skating in general? Someday maybe those measurements could be incorporated into the scoring itself, but if broadcasts could just list those numbers on the screen, that might provide information about why some skaters score higher across the board than others, which might not otherwise be evident on video.

Even better if the camerawork could somehow give viewers the experience of seeing differences in speed for themselves.
The trick would be not allowing the camerawork misrepresent the differences by using camera techniques that enhance the sense of speed for some skaters but not others.

Similarly, how could broadcasts give a better sense of the way that skaters carve deep curves into the ice and curve and turn in different directions and with difficult techniques of changing direction?

Most of that is there for viewers who already know what they're watching to see. But too many closeups can obscure those details.

And how could commentary encourage new viewers to understand what they're seeing in terms of the ways skaters move across the ice, so that they can start learning about skating technique, and how it's judged, at the same time that they start learning about jump technique and scoring criteria?

In one recent season (last year? the year before?), during the slow-mo the distance, height, trajectory of jumps and throws were being shown diagrammed over the skaters. I found it annoying myself, but conceded it might be informative for new viewers. However, that idea seems to have been abandoned. And it didn't show all the other nuances of skating. Maybe there could be a series of little documentaries on turns, edges, spin positions, twizzle variations, etc, shown during the ice surfacing breaks?

 

[gkelly]

As for bladework, I don't think that the average casual viewer knows enough about skating basics to appreciate things like depth and security of edge, much less small moves in the field. I think that viewres are more im[pressed by graceful upper body movements. Like a duck, serene and elegant above the water, paddling like crazy below.

And viewers who want to remain casual viewers and just enjoy the graceful movement, without necessarily learning how to tell one jump from another let alone how to recognize underrotations, can continue to enjoy watching that way.

My point is that for new viewers who want to learn to understand why one skater scores higher than another, focusing only the minutiae of the jumps is misleading. If viewers of skating on video want to understand the sport, they need more information.

There is certainly more technical information available now than there was in 6.0 days, but still most of the commentary focuses on the jumps, and TV broadcasts have never made any effort to show viewers where they can access the details protocols online at the end of the event or how to understand them.

In one recent season (last year? the year before?), during the slow-mo the distance, height, trajectory of jumps and throws were being shown diagrammed over the skaters. I found it annoying myself, but conceded it might be informative for new viewers.

Yes, still focused just on the jumps. And I'm not sure whether the distances shown reflected only the distance in the air or also the takeoff and landing edges.
I don't want to see that info during the performance itself, but as part of the replays I'm fine with it. But it's not enough to explain results anyway. Just interesting isolated data points. So if we're going to get those kinds of data points after the performance, why not additional ones like average and maximum ice speed?

However, that idea seems to have been abandoned. And it didn't show all the other nuances of skating. Maybe there could be a series of little documentaries on turns, edges, spin positions, twizzle variations, etc, shown during the ice surfacing breaks?

Yes, I would like to see more of these short educational snippets. We have seen some during Olympic broadcasts when there was full live coverage with dead time to fill during resurfaces. And occasionally during the ISU's JGP coverage I think. Though I usually don't watch them live and therefore fast-forward through the resurface breaks.

I want more of that! 10-30 second segments that can be shown between skaters or during warmups, somewhat longer more in-depth ones that can be played during resurfaces or while waiting for an event to begin.

 

[Zora]

There are many things in your post. Of course, saying it's just the jumps is not the whole problem but to me, it's the main factor.

Of course, there has always been a focus on jumping BUT
Back then,
-there were 2 step sequences... now, only one.
-the step sequences were really more like what we see in ice dance with the Choreographic Character Step Sequence. Skaters were dancing to their music with a variety of steps ... now it's just "let's do as many lunges and turns possible to get level 4"
-the LP is shorter now... and the time to set up for quads is much longer so when you do combine both factors you get : crossovers/quad repeat three times... then you get an easier jump in 4th place for some skaters... then everyone does a spin or one sequence... to get to the second half where the quadsters have saved their easier quads, others backload combos, and weaker jumper are just finishing up with their triples... to get to the final sequence and spin(s).

I agree all of this has probably influenced skaters programs negatively as well. I'm also still mad about the loss of the second step sequence, in the free and in the short program. I also think the choreo sequence is a very weak replacement for the second step sequence, I would prefer those moves to be used as actual choreography and not part of a forced sequence, and have the second step sequence back instead. And I find juniors skating completely uninteresting now that they got rid of the step sequence in the free skate. It's just jump jump spin. In the past the crowds went nuts during the step sequences, and what did the ISU do? Delete one.

But I still think there's this artistic trend right now, because the skaters/choreographers want this type of program. Past skaters like Fernandez have proven it's possible to have an entertaining program and still perform multiple quads and 3As (to be fair, he still had 4:30 minutes and only 3 quads). But he was also still one of the old generation. Also there are many skaters these days, who are not attempting more than 1-2 quads, and yet they still go for this type of program.