Feedback on the development of ice dance?

[Flying Feijoa]

After watching the GPF ice dance events, I'm curious to know what those conversations were that Mark was hearing around the rink about the future direction of this discipline. Yes, people have strong opinions, but perhaps more public discussion of those opinions would help us to find common ground What do you like/dislike about the current format, and what would you change?

Speaking generally, I feel that the decision-making process behind each year's new rules is not very transparent. We sometimes get vague hints beforehand, but often when the rules come out they seem to baffle both the audience and athletes/coaches. Rules shape the way that programmes look (e.g. the board-grabbing choreo trend is one indirect consequence), but they also affect what skills are emphasised in training, so their impact particularly on the development of newer generations of ice dancers is something to be considered carefully. For example, current junior skaters are probably a lot better at extended twizzle sequences than their coaches' generation, but might be less comfortable with complex changes of hold (depending on the individual of course).

@gsk8 it would be great to have some more interviews on this topic, especially from people who could explain more about the technical side of ice dance and/or give a historical perspective. A lot of discussion about ice dance focuses on programme themes, artistic packaging, music choice etc., because 1. that is undeniably a huge focus of the discipline, but also 2. it's harder for the general audience to learn about technical nuances compared to, say, singles or pairs elements. I really appreciate those tidbits of information that Mark sometimes throws out e.g. about the cleanliness of a bracket, or admiring a team's crosscuts. It works well on the ISU livestreams together with Ted commenting as a non-ice-dancer on more general performance aspects.

 

[Weathergal]

After watching the GPF ice dance events, I'm curious to know what those conversations were that Mark was hearing around the rink about the future direction of this discipline. Yes, people have strong opinions, but perhaps more public discussion of those opinions would help us to find common ground What do you like/dislike about the current format, and what would you change?

Speaking generally, I feel that the decision-making process behind each year's new rules is not very transparent. We sometimes get vague hints beforehand, but often when the rules come out they seem to baffle both the audience and athletes/coaches. Rules shape the way that programmes look (e.g. the board-grabbing choreo trend is one indirect consequence), but they also affect what skills are emphasised in training, so their impact particularly on the development of newer generations of ice dancers is something to be considered carefully. For example, current junior skaters are probably a lot better at extended twizzle sequences than their coaches' generation, but might be less comfortable with complex changes of hold (depending on the individual of course).

@gsk8 it would be great to have some more interviews on this topic, especially from people who could explain more about the technical side of ice dance and/or give a historical perspective. A lot of discussion about ice dance focuses on programme themes, artistic packaging, music choice etc., because 1. that is undeniably a huge focus of the discipline, but also 2. it's harder for the general audience to learn about technical nuances compared to, say, singles or pairs elements. I really appreciate those tidbits of information that Mark sometimes throws out e.g. about the cleanliness of a bracket, or admiring a team's crosscuts. It works well on the ISU livestreams together with Ted commenting as a non-ice-dancer on more general performance aspects.

Two people who I think would provide great commentary on that are Mark Hanretty and Jean-Luc Baker.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Two people who I think would provide great commentary on that are Mark Hanretty and Jean-Luc Baker.

I'd love to hear more from Jean-Luc. I've only had access to the ISU feed but I gather he was on Peacock for Skate America? Ben Agosto is another US ice dancer who might have some good insights.

I'm also curious about the perspective of some of the emerging European coaches. There was an ice dance camp in the summer in Egna bringing together a lot of the top skaters (Turkkila/Versluis mentioned about it in their interview here), and it would be interesting to learn more about how these groups balanced collaboration with competition.

It's kind of fun to watch snippets of ice dance from different Olympic cycles and see how requirements/tastes change over the years in the ongoing grapple between sport and entertainment... The best performances have a timeless quality though, regardless of the rules, and there are always a few to be found in each decade.

Here are Cappellini/Zanni and Virtue/Moir going head to head in the junior Grand Prix Final 20 years ago:

- YouTube

Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.

youtu.be

They were babies then! Makes me feel old despite being younger than them

 

[saine]

What do you like/dislike about the current format, and what would you change?

Go back to the old pattern dance instead of the choreo rhythm sequence/pattern dance type step sequence and stop it with the themes that are trying to generate virality. I don't think they can manufacture virality, or get attention from younger people with themes. Most of the rhythm dances this year blurred together for me with the music choices. Probably a common sentiment. I'm on the waltz train now, I guess?

I do like how they're doing the pattern dances with the Juniors, and having the man and woman switch steps:

-1PD must be skated in accordance with Rule 707, paragraph 2, the Man must skate the Man’s Steps and the Woman must skate the Woman's Steps.
- 2PD, the Woman skates the Man’s steps and the Man skates the Woman’s steps (switch tracking/sides on all steps).

I'd like them to try that out with the Seniors.

I agree about needing commentary that can explain the technical aspects. If no one understands the scores, it is not helping Ice Dance as a sport. Some of the fan explanations about judging with different coaches having different countries don't help new viewers trust the scores. But I don't know if anyone would trust the commentary any longer thanks to the narratives that have taken hold.

 

[Anna K.]

But I don't know if anyone would trust the commentary any longer thanks to the narratives that have taken hold.

Commentary is not the only tool to provide transparency (and there is no other cure against toxic narratives but transparency). There can be also other tools, i.e., it is possible to live stream judges' discussions after competitions and allow spectators to ask questions. In some countries (one of them being Latvia sometimes ) it's been done by inviting a judge to comment. You'd be surprised how many "suspicious" decisions have a basis - and a strong basis, actually. Also, I have heard from our judge that discussions of ice dance judges are particularly heated and down-to detail, so ice dance would be the right discipline to start such practice

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Go back to the format skated in the early 2000's and prior. 3 parts to the competition. The Compulsory section of the competition alone would be incredibly telling. I guarantee some of the top ice dance teams wouldn't be there with CD's included.
I won't say further at this point, but my CD proposal is me just getting warmed up.

 

[moonvine]

Go back to the format skated in the early 2000's and prior. 3 parts to the competition. The Compulsory section of the competition alone would be incredibly telling. I guarantee some of the top ice dance teams wouldn't be there with CD's included.
I won't say further at this point, but my CD proposal is me just getting warmed up.

I agree.

 

[moonvine]

Two people who I think would provide great commentary on that are Mark Hanretty and Jean-Luc Baker.

Jean Luc needs to be competing

 

[Anna K.]

I don't think that pattern dances are "boring" by definition; rather they simply lack an up-to-date management. We live in an era when social media dance challenges thrive. If people happily film themselves doing same dance moves and like other's posts with same moves, why wouldn't they like it on ice

 

[throw_triple_flip]

I have to admit that I'm skeptical of the prevailing social media wisdom that bringing back the pattern dance or having everyone skate a waltz is going to be the magical panacea for waning interest, which has been a problem from way before all the much maligned recent changes have occured.


I would really like to have access to judge feedback and the reasoning behind tech calls, etc. Transparency is always good.

 

[Anna K.]

I have to admit that I'm skeptical of the prevailing social media wisdom that bringing back the pattern dance or having everyone skate a waltz is going to be the magical panacea for waning interest, which has been a problem from way before all the much maligned recent changes have occured.


I would really like to have access to judge feedback and the reasoning behind tech calls, etc. Transparency is always good.

I do not expect any panacea either. I'm just saying that dance patters are capable to bring the social media excitement desired (if it is) no less than any 'dreadful disco' hand moves. I did not say that it's a magic wand; rather, I kind of implied that it might require hard work that might require developing new or varied dance patterns and promoting them.

However, if we talk about judging transparency, don't you think that comparing 'apples to apples" (pattern to pattern) would only facilitate judges' work and make it easier to explain it to viewers?

 

[Yogi]

I hate the Choreographic rhythm sequence in the RD and I don't like the character step in the FD either. Although, I don't think the character step is required anymore but so many are still doing it. What if they gave a few different patterns and teams could choose which one they wanted to do and then pick music that worked? Instead of picking a decade and then a pattern that makes no sense.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

I have to admit that I'm skeptical of the prevailing social media wisdom that bringing back the pattern dance or having everyone skate a waltz is going to be the magical panacea for waning interest, which has been a problem from way before all the much maligned recent changes have occured.


I would really like to have access to judge feedback and the reasoning behind tech calls, etc. Transparency is always good.

I think the calls for having dance patterns/waltzes are not really about attracting new viewers (although I don't think it would necessarily repel them). It's more about the tastes and preferences of established fans/skaters - what sort of skating style and technical emphasis we'd like to see more of in ice dance. That said, being able to understand scores is important for retaining fans and sustaining interest, so the apples-to-apples comparison facilitated by patterns might help with this. Regardless what formats or rules are imposed, I agree that judging transparency is important.

I'm not on social media much, but I'm an adult skater, so this probably influences my opinion. I can appreciate a really well-done pattern because I've tried them and know which bits are tricky However, I think regardless whether you skate or not, something like these old ISU video guides would help the audience to recognise steps and understand what to look out for:

- YouTube

Profitez des vidéos et de la musique que vous aimez, mettez en ligne des contenus originaux, et partagez-les avec vos amis, vos proches et le monde entier.

www.youtube.com

In a similar but briefer vein, the JGP livestreams this season have been including short educational clips during resurfacing breaks explaining elements like loop jumps and so on. Something like this could be expanded on (e.g. teach the audience to identify clean rockers and counters in a step sequence).

 

[NanaPat]

The one thing that upset me about the compulsory dances was that the music didn't end when the dance did, and was then cut off at a random place, sometimes mid-note and often mid-phrase. They have to do better than that. I realize that the skaters are allowed to do a few steps of their choosing at the end of the dance, but all the music should be cut to allow for that, and then end at a logical place.

 

[TallyT]

The one thing that upset me about the compulsory dances was that the music didn't end when the dance did, and was then cut off at a random place, sometimes mid-note and often mid-phrase. They have to do better than that. I realize that the skaters are allowed to do a few steps of their choosing at the end of the dance, but all the music should be cut to allow for that, and then end at a logical place.

That comes down to the lack of skill in music arrangement. I know that I have said that they are athletes not musicians but presumably at elite level their team/choreographer is involved and the technology is pretty easy to use these days.

 

[NanaPat]

That comes down to the lack of skill in music arrangement. I know that I have said that they are athletes not musicians but presumably at elite level their team/choreographer is involved and the technology is pretty easy to use these days.

I think the event organizers supply the music for the compulsory dances, not the skaters. I read somewhere that some federations had added more options for the music for each pattern and included more "modern" selections. If the ISU or the skating federation is supplying the music, then they should at least cut the end off at a reasonable place and not leave it up to the person operating the sound system to say "oh, they've finished, I can turn the music off".

 

[Diana Delafield]

I think the event organizers supply the music for the compulsory dances, not the skaters. I read somewhere that some federations had added more options for the music for each pattern and included more "modern" selections. If the ISU or the skating federation is supplying the music, then they should at least cut the end off at a reasonable place and not leave it up to the person operating the sound system to say "oh, they've finished, I can turn the music off".

It's the same in ballroom competitions, which is presumably where the practice began of there being a set piece of music for everyone for each dance. In ballroom everyone dances for a set length of time and then the music stops, whether it's in the middle of a phrase or not. The point there is how well you do the steps keeping to the fixed rhythm and tempo of that dance, whether tango or foxtrot or waltz or whatever, not doing a complete program that interprets that particular piece of music chosen by the federation that year or the event organizers for that competition.

It's a long time since I did dance tests and I can't remember if you do two or three circuits of the ice in a compulsory dance, but the way I recall it, you're judged on how well you stick to the rhythm of the piece. The music isn't cut to have any arc or end. Do your three (or whatever) circuits of the ice and you stop and the music cuts off. A drumbeat or metronome would work as well, but be really irritating. In ballroom you don't stick to a path around the floor, but the principle is the same, that you have x number of minutes to show you can do the steps of the dance in time, without colliding with any other dancers (since everyone is dancing at the same time, not separately as in skating). And then the music stops in mid-bar and so do you.

 

[TallyT]

It's the same in ballroom competitions, which is presumably where the practice began of there being a set piece of music for everyone for each dance. In ballroom everyone dances for a set length of time and then the music stops, whether it's in the middle of a phrase or not. The point there is how well you do the steps keeping to the fixed rhythm and tempo of that dance, whether tango or foxtrot or waltz or whatever, not doing a complete program that interprets that particular piece of music chosen by the federation that year or the event organizers for that competition.

It's a long time since I did dance tests and I can't remember if you do two or three circuits of the ice in a compulsory dance, but the way I recall it, you're judged on how well you stick to the rhythm of the piece. The music isn't cut to have any arc or end. Do your three (or whatever) circuits of the ice and you stop and the music cuts off. A drumbeat or metronome would work as well, but be really irritating. In ballroom you don't stick to a path around the floor, but the principle is the same, that you have x number of minutes to show you can do the steps of the dance in time, without colliding with any other dancers (since everyone is dancing at the same time, not separately as in skating). And then the music stops in mid-bar and so do you.

Thank you! I see that makes sense for the dancing - for skating, maybe not so much?

 

[gkelly]

Ice dancing started out as a social activity before it was a competitive activity. Multiple couples would skate the same dance at the same time, often starting from opposite ends of the ice (for patterns that go halfway around the ice) and/or offset a one team few measuresbehind the one in front.

Even now, if you go to a social ice dance session, the same man might skate a couple patterns of the same dance with more than one woman (or vice versa less commonly).

So the music cuts needed to be long enough for more than one team to finish exactly the number of patterns used in competition.

And on practice sessions or warmups for test sessions you might get multiple skaters testing the same dance with the same coach/partner, so the music needs to be long enough for more than a couple of patterns.

Even with established teams testing together, or competing together at lower levels where pattern dances are still used, there will be multiple teams warming up simultaneously, not necessarily starting at the same point in the music.

When the host club provides the music, often using standard music provided by the ISU or national federation, they intentionally use recordings that are designed to last longer than the amount of time it takes a single team to perform the number of patterns used in competition, plus introductory moves/steps and ending moves. There are excellent reasons why the recordings are longer than the length of one team's competitive performance. And then the same recordings are also used for the actual pattern dance competition.

I haven't witnessed such competitions myself, but I understand that in the past there had been pattern dance competitions with more than one team on the ice at the same time, more similar to ballroom competitions.

In competitions where the pattern dance music is "skaters' choice" then the skaters/teams will provide their own music for pattern dances just as they do for other programs, so those will likely be edited to match their exact choreographed performance including intro and ending moves. But skaters providing their own music for pattern dance competition is quite recent, IIRC it didn't start until after the junior and senior compulsory dances were combined into the Short Dance, or around that time.

When the Original Set Pattern competition phase was introduced in the late 1960s, part of its intention was not only to allow skaters to show creativity and showcase their own best skills by choreographing their own patterns, but also to come up with new set patterns that could be used for social dance sessions and for some to be adapted as standard pattern dances for competitions (and tests, in federations that hold tests).

Starting in 2010-11, the Short Dance and later Rhythm Dance included full pattern dances; more recently the senior RD has only included isolated sections of that year's selected pattern and the rhythm selections have not necessarily matched the rhythm of the standard pattern the steps were selected from.

If the idea is to help non-ice-dancer viewers to understand the judging of apples to apples, including a full pattern in the RD, with repeat for the shorter dances (perhaps with both partners switching between the men's and women's/lead vs. follow steps from one pattern to the next, as has been done recently in the junior RD, and as solo dance has done in pattern dances), would be a place for commentators to do a better job of pointing out what the tech panels and judges are looking for in each section of the standard pattern that all the teams are doing. It should be just as easy to provide that education in the context of full patterns within a Rhythm Dance that also includes other elements as to do so in a separate pattern dance competition phase. That also keeps the dance competition to 2 rather than 3 phases, as requested by the IOC for Olympic competition, which was the whole point of combining what used to be the compulsory dance and original dance segments in the first place.

But in most cases it would be up to the broadcasters in individual countries, not to the ISU, to provide any education within the broadcasts.

For diehard fans who are willing to go beyond the broadcasts to look at rulebooks and protocols, perhaps the ISU could also produce video segments aimed at fan education and make them available on the ISU website and/or on youtube.

But for new fans watching TV broadcasts in their home countries, it would be up to those broadcasters to point interested viewers to these other resources. In most cases, TV networks don't seem to be interested in letting viewers know that there are additional sources of information about skating beyond what they show on their own networks.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

If the idea is to help non-ice-dancer viewers to understand the judging of apples to apples, including a full pattern in the RD, with repeat for the shorter dances (perhaps with both partners switching between the men's and women's/lead vs. follow steps from one pattern to the next, as has been done recently in the junior RD, and as solo dance has done in pattern dances), would be a place for commentators to do a better job of pointing out what the tech panels and judges are looking for in each section of the standard pattern that all the teams are doing. It should be just as easy to provide that education in the context of full patterns within a Rhythm Dance that also includes other elements as to do so in a separate pattern dance competition phase. That also keeps the dance competition to 2 rather than 3 phases, as requested by the IOC for Olympic competition, which was the whole point of combining what used to be the compulsory dance and original dance segments in the first place.

Yes, I think the 2010-2022 short/rhythm dance format, i.e. one pattern (give or take) incorporated together with other elements, was a feasible compromise - preserving many advantages of the compulsory dance (except consistency across pattern repeats), while being overall easier for competition logistics. I was a bit sceptical at first about the partner step switching for the junior segment, but I found it quite interesting to watch. I'm not as keen on what was done with the seniors, because I feel that the lack of a full pattern and having more leeway with timing took away too much technical difficulty from the Paso.

I'm doubtful about restoring full compulsories as a standalone part of junior/senior competition, at least in the way it was in the 90s (random last-minute draw of 2 dances out of 4 at each event) because of the expense and time involved in extending competition duration, not to mention having to pack 6 costumes in the luggage as I've heard some skaters did...

I noticed compulsory segments at some recent ISU competitions below the junior/senior levels, though I don't know about the details of the requirements or categories (maybe advanced novice?). For instance, here's a nice Starlight Waltz at Bavarian Open 2024 from a team which has since moved to juniors:



Broadly speaking, many people I know have moved from TV to streaming services, so I agree the ISU Youtube channel seems like a good place to host educational resources. Over the last few years its presence has developed to the point where its reach might be comparable if not greater than conventional TV broadcasters, at least in places where it's not geoblocked.