Boot and blade recommendations + opinions on overbooting

[robot]

Potential overboot: Graf Windsor + gold seal revolutions

Rational:
All fitters are a plane ride away, so I'd rather over boot and over blade knowing that I've intentionally held myself back and focused on skating skills for 3 yrs, and am likely to have a lot of that hard work come to fruition now that I'm in a position to buy skates that are meant to take a beating.

details:
Weight: 114lb
height: 5'6
Age: 25
Gender: female
Foot shape: roman
Foot width: wide
Arch shape: high
Current boot+ blade : Jackson Elle set with mirage blade (still alive after 10 months and a total of 4 sharpening)
Ankle position: normal with occasional supination

Complaints: toe box has too much height vertically and too little width horizontally; little contact between the middle of my foot and generic Jackson aspire insole that came with the skate

Time skating per week: 10+ hrs
Lacing method: outside in edea style with wax laces and tie the hooks 4,3,2,1

 

[tstop4me]

Missing info: What level of skating are you currently at?

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

NO! First of all, with that foot shape Graf's are a no-go. Secondly, the Windsor is for Professional skaters, so it's more than overbooting. You definitely don't need that if Grafs even worked with your foot shape which we've established don't. Overbooting is bad no matter the reason: You will get injured and then you won't be skating at all. And the injury especially if to the ankle, will affect skating forever.


I can tell you that with your foot shape and foot being wide as well, you should only look at Risport and Jackson. I know you don't like how the toebox is in your current elle boots (and holy overbooting to go to something the level of windsor), but there is a way to get around not liking the toebox in Jackson and that would be a semi-custom boot like a Synergy Elite. Or again, you could go with Risport.

Gold Seal blades are not needed at this point and you'd definitely be overblading with them. And no one except elite skaters need revolution blades. You would be better off with a traditional version of JW Coronation Ace or MK pros.

I know this isn't the news you wanted but it's what is needed. Overbooting and overblading is NEVER the answer no matter the situation.

Good luck in your skating journey!

 

[tstop4me]

Rational:
All fitters are a plane ride away, so I'd rather over boot and over blade knowing that I've intentionally held myself back and focused on skating skills for 3 yrs, and am likely to have a lot of that hard work come to fruition now that I'm in a position to buy skates that are meant to take a beating.

Just a general comment, since posts similar to yours pop up now and then. Your rationale is based on the premise that advanced gear (boots or blades or both) have only pluses and no minuses (other than price) for skaters at any level. So, as long as you can afford it, you might as well buy the most advanced gear available. Well, that premise is false. For skaters who are not ready, advanced gear do have minuses; minuses that can hinder progress or cause injury.

As a rough analogy, a beginner driver would be better served by a Chevy sedan than a Ferrari Formula1 (even if they had the bucks).

 

[robot]

NO! First of all, with that foot shape Graf's are a no-go. Secondly, the Windsor is for Professional skaters, so it's more than overbooting. You definitely don't need that if Grafs even worked with your foot shape which we've established don't. Overbooting is bad no matter the reason: You will get injured and then you won't be skating at all. And the injury especially if to the ankle, will affect skating forever.


I can tell you that with your foot shape and foot being wide as well, you should only look at Risport and Jackson. I know you don't like how the toebox is in your current elle boots (and holy overbooting to go to something the level of windsor), but there is a way to get around not liking the toebox in Jackson and that would be a semi-custom boot like a Synergy Elite. Or again, you could go with Risport.

Gold Seal blades are not needed at this point and you'd definitely be overblading with them. And no one except elite skaters need revolution blades. You would be better off with a traditional version of JW Coronation Ace or MK pros.

I know this isn't the news you wanted but it's what is needed. Overbooting and overblading is NEVER the answer no matter the situation.

Good luck in your skating journey!

Wait- why are grafs a no go? You've recommended them to me in the past, and I've read that they have an even rounder less tapered toe box than Jackson does.

Arch Description & Foot Type

Use these diagrams in conjunction with our "Comparing Figure Skates by Fit & Design" [LINK] to find a skate that fits you. For more information on getting the right fit with your skates, read our other guides or get in touch with us. We're always happy to help!

skaterslanding.com

Comparing Figure Skates By Fit & Design

Always consider skill level, boot shape, age, body type and intention when purchasing skates. For ease of understanding, we have broken down skill level categories into simple divisions. Recreational, Beginner, Instructional, Competitive, and Advanced Competitive. These divisions take into...

skaterslanding.com

Which is good given that I'm also looking for an even more rounded less tapered toebox. Currently length wise they are perfect, but the issue is my big toe ends up being turned inwards at an angle towards the tip of the boot which is the longest point, with it being somewhat the same story with my pinky being turned inwards as well. As a result my middle 3 toes stagger themselves upwards in a curve of sorts in order to fit.

As for the Windsor- it's really the padded lower back that facilitates and allows for toe pointing that I'm after- not the stiffness necessarily. I just really can't find any other boots other than the edea show girls with that low cut yet padded back that are rated for jumping instead of ice dance boots.

Is it possible to have a lace tab and low cut padded collar added to a semi custom?

Although it may not matter given all fitters seem fully booked out for the dates I'm in Boston, the issue with semi customs is that I'll be on a plane back home before they arrive, and would need to have them permanently mounted before being shipped to me. Otherwise, I'll have no way of mounting them since im uncomfortable mounting them myself.

In regards to the blade, I'm open to suggestions for any light weight blades other than the gold seals with a 8 ft rocker that are great for spinning and don't have an aggressive toe pick. Because I have hip dysplasia, i medically need to stay at a certain weight to avoid over stressing the joint since each 1 lb I carry is like an extra 3 lb in terms of force and strain on the joint. As a result, I was thinking the revolution version of the gold seal to chop some weight off since for me, an ounce lighter is like 3 ounces lighter.

I honestly just also want to get out of Jackson since I've had it with them at this point. The liner they use always gets really uncomfortable due to wrinkling after a few months and ends up with holes. Not to mention they have terrible customer service, and have sent me to the ER twice when my Jackson Elle online skates I purchased directly through them had a wheel and toe stop fall off 2 minutes after being tightened.

Also, since it's such an over boot I was thinking of getting them fitted and mounted so I have them, but not using them for another few years until I'm ready. I really don't know when I'll have another chance to get fitted, and really don't want to buy something I'll need to replace in a yr or two since i actually can't replace it

Plus I have really strong ankles so im guessing I'll be able to break them in. I literally broke my fibula and tore a ligament after a child shoved me into a rut, and was up and walking on it abd skating 2 weeks after surgery. Same story with screw removal- 2 weeks off- yay!

 

[Diana Delafield]

Also, since it's such an over boot I was thinking of getting them fitted and mounted so I have them, but not using them for another few years until I'm ready. I really don't know when I'll have another chance to get fitted, and really don't want to buy something I'll need to replace in a yr or two since i actually can't replace it

Unused boots deteriorate in long storage, as was discussed in another thread here recently. Given the physical and medical issues you've described, like your hip dysplasia, it will be more than just a few years before you could hope to be learning the triple and quadruple jumps for which very stiff boots are designed. I would love to ride, but allergies around horses make breathing too difficult, and strong medication to help me breathe clouds the mental alertness I'd need. So I don't ride. Dogged determination can only take someone so far if a sport and a body are at odds with each other.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

I said Grafs may work before I knew your foot shape and needs. And I'll just say this. I stand by everything I said. If you want to go overboot and overblade, that's on you. If you get injured and can't skate anymore, then that's on you again. I am no longer commenting other than to say: Good luck on your skating journey. Please try to stay safe.

 

[tstop4me]

Also, since it's such an over boot I was thinking of getting them fitted and mounted so I have them, but not using them for another few years until I'm ready. I really don't know when I'll have another chance to get fitted, and really don't want to buy something I'll need to replace in a yr or two since i actually can't replace it

In addition to the reasons discussed by others above why this is not a good idea, what are you planning to do to get you ready over the intervening "another few years"? Stay with your current pair of Elles that are causing you such problems? [ETA: In this current thread and in another one of your threads, I asked you: "What is your current level of skating?" So far, you have not answered. But that's important information.]

 

[tstop4me]

Current boot+ blade : Jackson Elle set with mirage blade (still alive after 10 months and a total of 4 sharpening)
Ankle position: normal with occasional supination

Complaints: toe box has too much height vertically and too little width horizontally; little contact between the middle of my foot and generic Jackson aspire insole that came with the skate

Which is good given that I'm also looking for an even more rounded less tapered toebox. Currently length wise they are perfect, but the issue is my big toe ends up being turned inwards at an angle towards the tip of the boot which is the longest point, with it being somewhat the same story with my pinky being turned inwards as well. As a result my middle 3 toes stagger themselves upwards in a curve of sorts in order to fit.

* I'm not here to recommend a particular boot for you. But here are some comments concerning the problems with your current boots. I'm wearing the current Jackson 5362; and I wore a similar model that came before it.

* Jackson uses different grades of linings in their boots. Your Elles are a lower-end kit (boots with pre-mounted blades). On this forum there have been complaints that even in the Debuts (sold as separate boots only) the linings around the heel wear prematurely. In my two pairs of Jacksons, I've had no problems with the linings. When I went to get my blades sharpened a month ago, I compared the linings in my boots with those of the Debuts, and they are different. @Ic3Rabbit recommended that you consider the Synergy Elite. I didn't look inside one of those, but check with Jackson whether they use the same linings as the 5300 series boots. If so, the linings should be durable.

* You mentioned that there are no fitters close to you. So did you buy the Elles online? If so, I'm guessing that you did not have them heat molded. I checked; the Elles are heat moldable. Stock Elles come in two widths: R(A/B), W(C/D). A while ago, Jackson changed the widths of many of their boots: they use the same outsole to cover two widths. Thus, the R outsole is used for both A and B width; and the W outsole is used for both C and D width. For each outsole, the wider width is attained via heat molding/stretching of the uppers. If you didn't have this done already, that may be one simple fix.

* The toe box can be further rounded via punching and spot heating (done in multiple stages if needed). I've had this done to my boots, and was able to avoid the need for a Rapid Custom (see below). You need an experienced tech, and you need to leave the boots. This is a longer-lasting and more extensive procedure than quickie spot punching done cold.

* If heat molding/stretching/punching in a stock boot is not sufficient to give you sufficient width around the ball and toes, but the current heel fits snugly, then for higher-end boots, such as the Synergy Elite, you can order, via Rapid Custom, boots that are even wider about the ball, while keeping the same width heel.

* It's not clear to me that excess height in the toe box is indeed a problem. Right now you don't have enough width, your toes are squished, and some of your toes are being forced up. If you correct the width problem, this problem might go away. Also, it's likely that you will need to swap out the stock insole (footbed) for a different one to provide proper support for your high arches. The corrective insole will likely be thicker than the stock one, and a higher toe box will be advantageous to accommodate the extra thickness. That's a problem with boots with lower volume: they often don't have room for corrective insoles.

Although it may not matter given all fitters seem fully booked out for the dates I'm in Boston, the issue with semi customs is that I'll be on a plane back home before they arrive, and would need to have them permanently mounted before being shipped to me. Otherwise, I'll have no way of mounting them since im uncomfortable mounting them myself.

Also, since it's such an over boot I was thinking of getting them fitted and mounted so I have them, but not using them for another few years until I'm ready. I really don't know when I'll have another chance to get fitted, and really don't want to buy something I'll need to replace in a yr or two since i actually can't replace it

Not having a fitter nearby is a problem you'll need to work around. Especially as you progress to higher level (but still suitable for you) boots and blades, you'll typically need more than one visit to a tech. E.g., with boots, if you get an initial heat molding with the stock insoles, and then later get corrective insoles, you'll likely want to get a second heat molding with the corrective insoles. And with blades, you typically get an initial temp mount, try them out, get them adjusted, and try them out again. Often you'll need another iteration before the permanent mount. And you may need shims installed as well.

So you may need to plan an extended stay where you can skate several sessions near the fitter. Or ask around your local rink if there are coaches or other skaters who can handle some adjustments (such as blade mounting/alignment/shimming).

 

[bostonskaterguy86]

As for the Windsor- it's really the padded lower back that facilitates and allows for toe pointing that I'm after- not the stiffness necessarily. I just really can't find any other boots other than the edea show girls with that low cut yet padded back that are rated for jumping instead of ice dance boots.

You might like the Risport Royal Pro for this! It's a freestyle boot, but it's cut a bit lower than average (while still not as low as the average dance boot). It's got a well-padded collar with a good amount of stretch to it, particularly in the back. I've been in my Royal Pros for almost a year now and they definitely allow for pretty good range of motion in my ankles, without compromising on support. It's also a much more manageable support level than the Windsor.

The Royal Pro also has a decently rounded toebox, though I'd say it's definitely not more rounded than Jackson's usually are (and in fact is probably slightly more tapered). My feet are Egyptian, but are pretty wide in the front, and the toebox on the Royal Pro worked fine for me after a heat-molding and punch-outs - even in standard width. @tstop4me brings up some great points about this above - the issues you're having with the Elles might indicate a need for heat-molding and punch-outs, as opposed to pointing towards needing a boot with a rounder toebox or lower volume.

In regards to the blade, I'm open to suggestions for any light weight blades other than the gold seals with a 8 ft rocker that are great for spinning and don't have an aggressive toe pick. Because I have hip dysplasia, i medically need to stay at a certain weight to avoid over stressing the joint since each 1 lb I carry is like an extra 3 lb in terms of force and strain on the joint. As a result, I was thinking the revolution version of the gold seal to chop some weight off since for me, an ounce lighter is like 3 ounces lighter.

Unfortunately I'd be hesitant to recommend most of the lightweight blades currently on the market, for the reason that you've mentioned there aren't really any reliable techs or fitters in your area. The majority of lightweight blades available are more difficult to sharpen than regular blades, usually because of how they're constructed. MK/Wilson's Revolution blades, Ultima Matrix blades, and Paramount blades are all designed as a lightweight chassis (carbon fiber or aluminum) with steel runners attached - a design that usually requires the sharpening machine to have a special clamp for holding the skate during sharpening. The average skating rink pro shop is not likely to have the necessary equipment for sharpening blades like this. The Matrix blades and the higher-level Paramount blades are also stainless steel blades, which can be more difficult to sharpen than traditional carbon steel - and the more advanced MK/Wilson blades have features like tapering and side-honing that also make them more difficult to sharpen (this is true of Wilson's Gold Seal, as well as MK's Phantom and Gold Star).

One blade that comes to mind given your criteria is the Ultima Legacy 8. It's an intermediate blade, which would be appropriate for your level, and has an 8-foot main rocker, with a cross-cut toepick that I don't believe is particularly aggressive (I've seen a few pairs of the Legacy 7 blades, which have a pretty run-of-the-mill toepick, and I'd assume the pick on the 8 is similar, if not the same). It's even a lightweight blade - though rather than using the runner/chassis design, the weight reduction comes from several cut-out areas along the body of the blade, so it's much easier to sharpen. The catch is that many people feel the Ultima blades in general have flatter spin rockers than they would like - so you might find the Legacy 8 not as good for spins as you'd like (although since you're coming from the Ultima Mirage, it might still be an improvement - the Mirage is quite flat!).

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

You might like the Risport Royal Pro for this! It's a freestyle boot, but it's cut a bit lower than average (while still not as low as the average dance boot). It's got a well-padded collar with a good amount of stretch to it, particularly in the back. I've been in my Royal Pros for almost a year now and they definitely allow for pretty good range of motion in my ankles, without compromising on support. It's also a much more manageable support level than the Windsor.

The Royal Pro also has a decently rounded toebox, though I'd say it's definitely not more rounded than Jackson's usually are (and in fact is probably slightly more tapered). My feet are Egyptian, but are pretty wide in the front, and the toebox on the Royal Pro worked fine for me after a heat-molding and punch-outs - even in standard width. @tstop4me brings up some great points about this above - the issues you're having with the Elles might indicate a need for heat-molding and punch-outs, as opposed to pointing towards needing a boot with a rounder toebox or lower volume.



Unfortunately I'd be hesitant to recommend most of the lightweight blades currently on the market, for the reason that you've mentioned there aren't really any reliable techs or fitters in your area. The majority of lightweight blades available are more difficult to sharpen than regular blades, usually because of how they're constructed. MK/Wilson's Revolution blades, Ultima Matrix blades, and Paramount blades are all designed as a lightweight chassis (carbon fiber or aluminum) with steel runners attached - a design that usually requires the sharpening machine to have a special clamp for holding the skate during sharpening. The average skating rink pro shop is not likely to have the necessary equipment for sharpening blades like this. The Matrix blades and the higher-level Paramount blades are also stainless steel blades, which can be more difficult to sharpen than traditional carbon steel - and the more advanced MK/Wilson blades have features like tapering and side-honing that also make them more difficult to sharpen (this is true of Wilson's Gold Seal, as well as MK's Phantom and Gold Star).

One blade that comes to mind given your criteria is the Ultima Legacy 8. It's an intermediate blade, which would be appropriate for your level, and has an 8-foot main rocker, with a cross-cut toepick that I don't believe is particularly aggressive (I've seen a few pairs of the Legacy 7 blades, which have a pretty run-of-the-mill toepick, and I'd assume the pick on the 8 is similar, if not the same). It's even a lightweight blade - though rather than using the runner/chassis design, the weight reduction comes from several cut-out areas along the body of the blade, so it's much easier to sharpen. The catch is that many people feel the Ultima blades in general have flatter spin rockers than they would like - so you might find the Legacy 8 not as good for spins as you'd like (although since you're coming from the Ultima Mirage, it might still be an improvement - the Mirage is quite flat!).

As a Roman shaped foot, I've suggested the Risport RF3 Pro for her. The Royal Pro is going to be too narrow like an Edea for her foot needs.

 

[robot]

I said Grafs may work before I knew your foot shape and needs. And I'll just say this. I stand by everything I said. If you want to go overboot and overblade, that's on you. If you get injured and can't skate anymore, then that's on you again. I am no longer commenting other than to say: Good luck on your skating journey. Please try to stay safe.

Don't worry- I won't go into grafs if you advise against it since I trust there's a reason behind your suggestion. I'm just wondering what about my foot shape/needs made you rule them out since I trust you and just want to know where you're coming from. Especially since you're part of the reason I accepted and ruled out Edea due to foot shape even though in the past I wanted showgirl due to my love of loose ankles (I actually didn't even use the lace hooks for 2 years- stupid I know, but I'm ready to listen now )

I'm guessing Graf won't let me get away with leaving enough space to shove a hand in under the tongue once laced? Or even if I have the ankle strength to break them in they may fit in a way that restricts the ankle regardless?

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Don't worry- I won't go into grafs if you advise against it since I trust there's a reason behind your suggestion. I'm just wondering what about my foot shape/needs made you rule them out since I trust you and just want to know where you're coming from. Especially since you're part of the reason I accepted and ruled out Edea due to foot shape even though in the past I wanted showgirl due to my love of loose ankles (I actually didn't even use the lace hooks for 2 years- stupid I know, but I'm ready to listen now )

I'm guessing Graf won't let me get away with leaving enough space to shove a hand in under the tongue once laced? Or even if I have the ankle strength to break them in they may fit in a way that restricts the ankle regardless?

There is NO boot you should be shoving a hand in under the tongue once laced. That's called a bad fit and will end up causing injury and issues.
As far as Edea Showgirl, even if Edea worked for you, which it doesn't you would have never been near needing a Showgirl boot which is for specifically HIGH LEVEL ICE DANCERS AND SHOW SKATERS. You don't need that stiffness now or anytime soon or even in a few years.
Why are you not lacing up and not skipping only the top hooks until the boots are broken in?! You cannot only lace the bottom of the boot and skip all the hooks. This is not a loose ankle feeling sport like you seem to want and I'm sorry but I'm starting to wonder if this sport is for you if that's what you're looking for. No wonder you're having issues with foot and hip issues. I really truly want to help you but you have to 100% listen to us that know and also understand that there is no way that I can explain what I have learned by being in the sport up to the highest levels over 30 years time.

 

[robot]

As a Roman shaped foot, I've suggested the Risport RF3 Pro for her. The Royal Pro is going to be too narrow like an Edea for her foot needs.

Oooo I looked it up and liked it! Do you know if the old model with the lace tabs on each hole level is still around or where I could find it? Or do you know of someone you could recommend who could install those lace tabs from top to bottom on any boot like the old model?

Thankfully that's one modification I don't need to be present for and can ship the skates in for.

Also- how much punching out would the RF3 need? Since I'm worried the skate might not respond as well if I put pressure into areas punched out beyond the brown sole.

If I'm a Jackson 5w what would that be in risport? Don't worry I'm taking your advice - I just want to know exactly what to ask for so I don't get mistreated again.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Oooo I looked it up and liked it! Do you know if the old model with the lace tabs on each hole level is still around or where I could find it? Or do you know of someone you could recommend who could install those lace tabs from top to bottom on any boot like the old model?

Thankfully that's one modification I don't need to be present for and can ship the skates in for.

Also- how much punching out would the RF3 need? Since I'm worried the skate might not respond as well if I put pressure into areas punched out beyond the brown sole.

If I'm a Jackson 5w what would that be in risport? Don't worry I'm taking your advice - I just want to know exactly what to ask for so I don't get mistreated again.

More than likely, no it's not around anymore. (And you are referring to RF3 pro, right?) Also, you need properly fit IN PERSON by a fitter. They can tell you what size you are. Also, they can tell you where you need punched out based on your foot. I cannot tell you that b/c I do not have your foot here nor can I do it from a picture (so don't bother lol).

 

[Diana Delafield]

Don't worry- I won't go into grafs if you advise against it since I trust there's a reason behind your suggestion. I'm just wondering what about my foot shape/needs made you rule them out since I trust you and just want to know where you're coming from. Especially since you're part of the reason I accepted and ruled out Edea due to foot shape even though in the past I wanted showgirl due to my love of loose ankles (I actually didn't even use the lace hooks for 2 years- stupid I know, but I'm ready to listen now )

I'm guessing Graf won't let me get away with leaving enough space to shove a hand in under the tongue once laced? Or even if I have the ankle strength to break them in they may fit in a way that restricts the ankle regardless?

I'm baffled. Why would you want to be able to put your hand down inside the boots? To figure skate properly and safely, you should have them so snugly laced all the way up that you *can't* get your hand in. To work the boots down to the level of comfort that you'd have from the start with the right stiffness level (which for you is not 90), you need to do a lot of power skating, and that uses deep knee bend and strong hip muscles, not "ankle strength". Wearing boots without lacing them correctly, I'm not surprised you were injured. Figure skating does not use ankle-free equipment for a reason. Have you ever had a chance to try a sport like hurdles? Back in university I knew a skater who switched to track sports and loved hurdles because it combined speed and precise jumps. And she loved being outdoors and wearing brief light clothing, unlike the layers of tights, etc that she'd had to wear on the ice. Or if you want a more graceful activity with music, any form of dance will give you slippers or shoes with minimal cover for your feet and no restriction for your ankles. I've done ballet, Highland, tap, and currently compete in ballroom. Ballroom shoes are essentially sandals, with high heels and very open strapping around the feet. Much easier to get a comfortable fit.

 

[robot]

There is NO boot you should be shoving a hand in under the tongue once laced. That's called a bad fit and will end up causing injury and issues.
As far as Edea Showgirl, even if Edea worked for you, which it doesn't you would have never been near needing a Showgirl boot which is for specifically HIGH LEVEL ICE DANCERS AND SHOW SKATERS. You don't need that stiffness now or anytime soon or even in a few years.
Why are you not lacing up and not skipping only the top hooks until the boots are broken in?! You cannot only lace the bottom of the boot and skip all the hooks. This is not a loose ankle feeling sport like you seem to want and I'm sorry but I'm starting to wonder if this sport is for you if that's what you're looking for. No wonder you're having issues with foot and hip issues. I really truly want to help you but you have to 100% listen to us that know and also understand that there is no way that I can explain what I have learned by being in the sport up to the highest levels over 30 years time.

That was years ago.

There is NO boot you should be shoving a hand in under the tongue once laced. That's called a bad fit and will end up causing injury and issues.
As far as Edea Showgirl, even if Edea worked for you, which it doesn't you would have never been near needing a Showgirl boot which is for specifically HIGH LEVEL ICE DANCERS AND SHOW SKATERS. You don't need that stiffness now or anytime soon or even in a few years.
Why are you not lacing up and not skipping only the top hooks until the boots are broken in?! You cannot only lace the bottom of the boot and skip all the hooks. This is not a loose ankle feeling sport like you seem to want and I'm sorry but I'm starting to wonder if this sport is for you if that's what you're looking for. No wonder you're having issues with foot and hip issues. I really truly want to help you but you have to 100% listen to us that know and also understand that there is no way that I can explain what I have learned by being in the sport up to the highest levels over 30 years time.

I think you may have misread/ misunderstood my comment. I said you're the reason I NO LONGER WANT Edea showgirls, and was implying that I've started to listen since I ALWAYS use all 4 hooks nowadays and have been for 1.5 yrs now.

Like I said earlier about the Windsor, honestly, the only reason I wanted the showgirls was their low cut back with extra padding to allow for as much toe point as possible, and their lace tab. The stiffness was not necessarily what I was after, but would have been a trade off for a boot that had all the features of an ice dance boot, but could be jumped in.

In regards to the hand comment- I meant that as a way of asking/assuming that the edea lacing style that prevents overbooting in edea may not prevent over booting in Graf. I'm just trying to replicate the sort of toe point and ankle range of motion I would have had had my foot shape been compatible with edea which sadly it is not.

I don't leave a literal hand of space, just a few fingers space like in Edeas. At least that's what I think Edeas are like.......

 

[robot]

More than likely, no it's not around anymore. (And you are referring to RF3 pro, right?) Also, you need properly fit IN PERSON by a fitter. They can tell you what size you are. Also, they can tell you where you need punched out based on your foot. I cannot tell you that b/c I do not have your foot here nor can I do it from a picture (so don't bother lol).

Yes- the RF3 pro

I'm baffled. Why would you want to be able to put your hand down inside the boots? To figure skate properly and safely, you should have them so snugly laced all the way up that you *can't* get your hand in. To work the boots down to the level of comfort that you'd have from the start with the right stiffness level (which for you is not 90), you need to do a lot of power skating, and that uses deep knee bend and strong hip muscles, not "ankle strength". Wearing boots without lacing them correctly, I'm not surprised you were injured. Figure skating does not use ankle-free equipment for a reason. Have you ever had a chance to try a sport like hurdles? Back in university I knew a skater who switched to track sports and loved hurdles because it combined speed and precise jumps. And she loved being outdoors and wearing brief light clothing, unlike the layers of tights, etc that she'd had to wear on the ice. Or if you want a more graceful activity with music, any form of dance will give you slippers or shoes with minimal cover for your feet and no restriction for your ankles. I've done ballet, Highland, tap, and currently compete in ballroom. Ballroom shoes are essentially sandals, with high heels and very open strapping around the feet. Much easier to get a comfortable fit.

To clarify- I no longer go ankle free at this point and stopped doing this 1.5 yrs ago. After being able to come back after 2 weeks post surgery and skate well while free ankling it, I kinda realized I had made my point about not having weak ankles and decided to find a new adventure. That and my ankle didn't hurt anymore when I tie the hooks which helps.

I'm just trying to understand what about my foot/me is not a good fit for Graf, and that's all I can come up with. Or in other words am wondering why you can't overboot in edea but can in Graf even if you lace it like an edea.

And I'm not much of a jumper (or technically I choose not to be), so hurdles aren't for me. I'm all about the S's in skating- spins, spirals, skating skills, and step sequences- so pointing the toe is something I want in the way people who love jumping love stiffness.

The sparknotes version of my situation is that l had a really bad experience with the only fitter in my area and now she won't sell to me. So since the stiffest boot blade set Jackson sells is the freestyle I had to find ways to sort of create mini stiffness upgrades by not lacing as much so that I could grow stronger and feel the happiness people feel over new stiffer boots over using the hooks. And I mean it kinda worked. This is my third pair of Jackson Elle's in 3 yrs but it still feels super special and awesome to me that I've advanced enough to get to use the hooks. I'm not fixated on the looseness, but in my situation you either make the best of it or quit. You tell yourself you like your skates a certain way, and feel safe in order to keep going

Honestly, I just want a hard restart with the proper equipment assuming I can grab a fitter appointment while in Boston since not having access to skates you can advance in is crushing. I'd probably love a stiff ankle but my former fitter said I would hate it and never let me try anything stiffer than the mystiques. It's a hot mess but hopefully a new beginning is near

 

[Diana Delafield]

Yes- the RF3 pro

To clarify- I no longer go ankle free at this point and stopped doing this 1.5 yrs ago. After being able to come back after 2 weeks post surgery and skate well while free ankling it, I kinda realized I had made my point about not having weak ankles and decided to find a new adventure. That and my ankle didn't hurt anymore when I tie the hooks which helps.

I'm just trying to understand what about my foot/me is not a good fit for Graf, and that's all I can come up with. Or in other words am wondering why you can't overboot in edea but can in Graf even if you lace it like an edea.

And I'm not much of a jumper (or technically I choose not to be), so hurdles aren't for me. I'm all about the S's in skating- spins, spirals, skating skills, and step sequences- so pointing the toe is something I want in the way people who love jumping love stiffness.

The sparknotes version of my situation is that l had a really bad experience with the only fitter in my area and now she won't sell to me. So since the stiffest boot blade set Jackson sells is the freestyle I had to find ways to sort of create mini stiffness upgrades by not lacing as much so that I could grow stronger and feel the happiness people feel over new stiffer boots over using the hooks. And I mean it kinda worked. This is my third pair of Jackson Elle's in 3 yrs but it still feels super special and awesome to me that I've advanced enough to get to use the hooks. I'm not fixated on the looseness, but in my situation you either make the best of it or quit. You tell yourself you like your skates a certain way, and feel safe in order to keep going

Honestly, I just want a hard restart with the proper equipment assuming I can grab a fitter appointment while in Boston since not having access to skates you can advance in is crushing. I'd probably love a stiff ankle but my former fitter said I would hate it and never let me try anything stiffer than the mystiques. It's a hot mess but hopefully a new beginning is near

I hope you can get a chance to discuss your wants with a good fitter in Boston. Someone who knows what they're doing and can at least see your feet and how you walk, even if in this case there won't be an opportunity for the fitter to see you skate, is always better than trying to explain just in words.

Toe pointing, though, is much more a function of the skater's own turnout from the hip than the cut or stiffness of the boot they wear. Ice dancers do get a bit of advantage from a lower cut back, but not as much as you might think. Unlike in ballet where the feet are arched and the toes actually are pointed, in skating it's largely an optical illusion. The illusion is created when the skater's free leg is turned out from the hip, so that it's the front of the whole leg down to and along the lacing on the boot that is facing the boards -- what's seen by the spectators or the judges, if that's what you want. They don't see the outline of the heel and shaped sole of the boot, or the blade attached to the sole, "breaking" that line. If you haven't taken a barre class, that would be an excellent way to improve your turnout and present that illusion of the pointed toe.

I've never worn Graf or Edea, so I can't advise you there from personal experience. There's a mix on GS of fans, coaches, technicians, skaters. I'm a skater. I know what equipment I've used, and that of my several pairs partners over the years, and what I've heard discussed by friends in the dressing rooms in the couple of countries where I've trained and competed. If you can see a fitter in Boston, you'll get the advice of someone who knows a wider range of equipment. Good luck!

 

[tinna]

This thread is a perfect example of why I don't like this forum anymore. Some of these replies are so rude it is borderline bullying disguised as giving advice.
It is really a pity, this could be a place for positivity.