- Joined
- Jan 9, 2017
Graf is not going to work for your foot due to shape. You are a Roman shaped foot, so that's a no-go. Also, Graf doesn't fit or lace like Edea. I wish you luck.
Boot and blade recommendations + opinions on overbooting
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- Joined
- Jan 9, 2017
It is a place for positivity and we always welcome and try our best (all of us here that know our stuff) to help people. Perhaps it is the way you are reading and interpreting that is getting things confused as being "negative and bullying." I assure you there is none of that here. If you are not a fan of the forum any more then it is your choice to post or not. I do wish you Good luck with whatever your journey is.
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2018
The Royal Pro has several of the same fit and design characteristics as the Edea boots, but it is not narrow like an Edea. I tried on the Royal Pro, the RF3 Pro, and the Edea Chorus when I was fitted a year ago, all in the same size (265C). The Royal and RF3 were pretty close in fit, but the Royal definitely has a rounder toebox. The Chorus fit significantly differently from the Risport boots. The toe on the Chorus is more tapered, they were uncomfortably tight throughout the instep, and they didn't accommodate my low arches well at all. If the Royal Pro were that narrow I never would have bought them!
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2022
A large percentage of the advice replies come from concern that the equipment the beginner wants to use would actually be dangerous for them, either physically or at that stage of their training, not to mention a waste of a considerable amount of their money. Sometimes it can take a lot of persuasion to convince them they're setting themselves up for a painful experience, or even serious injury. I'm sure the advice can sound nanny-ish, but I can assure you it's out of genuine concern for their safety.
Many ballet people worry that forcing turnout can lead to knee and ankle injuries. Especially if you force the turn through the knees and legs, rather than do it all at the hips.
Is that a significant possible issue in ice skating?
Also, there seem to be two different axis of toe pointing that people refer to in figure skating. There is the one from rotation about the axis of the leg that is indeed from hip turnout. That causes the toe to point outwards (away from the body centerline) from the line of the leg.
You seem to have assumed she meant that form of toe point.
One could in theory shape a boot so that the forward outside part of the boot is thicker than the rest. Since you only see the outside of the boot, not the foot within, that would also create an apparent toe point of the first type. But only of the foot, not the knees. Anyway, I am not aware of any boots which are designed to do that.
There is also the type of toe point one that along the axis of the leg (plantar flexion of the ankle, in medical terms) - which I think is what most people think of when they speak of toe pointing. If you have extreme toe point flexibility - you can make the foot and toe point in the direction of the leg. (That extreme form of toe point looks beautiful, and is perhaps the ballet ideal, but relatively few people have that.) Maybe she means that?)
The apparent amount of the second form of toe point is obviously reduced if you have a high heel - i.e., if the heel of the boot is elevated more than usual above the toe, and is increased by a low heel, so that your foot is, when you don't point, closer to horizontal. Because that affects the apparent direction of the bottom line of the boot.
Obviously there is a trade-off to a less elevated heel in the boot. If you want to put your weight over the balls of your feet, which is done rather often in figure skating, you have to use muscles to do that, rather than simply taking advantage of the passive position the high heel forces your feet to. (Though in my case, with my current boots, my relatively high heel height forces my body weight too far forwards for comfort. But that's an extreme case which likely doesn't affect the original poster - my heels are too high for my limited flexibility, because I picked heel height by what an ice dance coach suggested.)
But do you think it might make sense for her to get boots in which the heels are less elevated?
Whether or not a low cut back is needed depends a lot on flexibility. I'm not very flexible, so the only times the top of a boot has noticeably touched the back of my feet is when I tried wearing boots that were much too big for me. But apparently that is not true for people with high toe point flexibility (of the second type). They can benefit from low cut backs, to allow that second type of toe point. Perhaps the original poster is in that category?
One of the major purposes of most figure skate boots is to prevent ankle sprains, especially during jumps, by limiting the amount of possible sideways bend at the ankle, to that which the ankle can safely manage. That implies both a snug fit at the ankle, and a sideways stiffness in the boot. (Note: AFAICT, Edea favors a different theory, de-emphasizing the importance of snug ankle support - which presumably implies the skater has strong enough ankles to prevent strains.) A relatively high back helps contribute to that sideways stiffness. Otherwise, I think you need more material in the boot, along the sides and in the toebox, which I think increases the weight of the boot, though an engineer like tstop4me might know better whether that is true. I'm also not sure if that matters much.
Are you perhaps confusing Graf with some other brand? Because this is just straight up misinformation. Grafs fit exactly "Roman" shaped foots with multiple toes same length. And high arches. And someone coming from Jackson should fit Graf just fine.
As to OP, if you have wide feet with Roman shape, and with high arches, Graf L width is your go to. Risport toe box is tapered for irregular feet, so the fit won't be the best for you. Not that you couldn't fit into a Royal Pro with some heat molding, but your feet sounds 100% like Graf feet.
As to the blade, I advice against the Rev. If you want Gold Seals for spins, go with the traditional versions. If you really want, need, and think you'd benefit from a lightweight blade, look to Paramount 12'' (their "Gold Seal" copy with an aggressive spin rocker like a genuine GS, unlike in other manufacturers with flatter spin rockers, like Ultimas, etc.).
Oh, and you could go with a softer boot. You don't need to be doing triples+ to justify an 80 hardness boot, but you do need to be a certain level to be able to break those boots in. There are benefits to wearing a "too stiff" boot as well, especially for people who pronate/supinate. So it's not out of the question, depending on your level.
You said Grafs are a no go, because of "Roman foot shape", which is simply false. And I would be very careful to generalize my own personal experiences, but our experiences are the complete opposite then. I have wide feet at the ball (we are talking about measuring wider than listed width for size 13US when my size is 9US), with high arches, Roman/African foot type, and Grafs are the only stock boot (in L width) that a) does not kill my arches, and b) actually fit my duck feet (although I wear customs now). Imo, Grafs are absolutely the best for people with high arches and wide feet at the ball, with medium to narrow heels. So complete opposite of what you said here (if I understood you correctly).
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2022
Right. My pairs partner has switched back and forth between Grafs and Risports over the years. As a surgeon who spends a lot of time on his feet, he knows they (people's feet) change shape over the years. He never assumes he needs a particular brand and style each time, he treats every new purchase with an open mind as a completely new fitting, as if he were a beginner rather than a masters/senior adult competitor (in men's singles) with decades of skating experience. His fitter in Boston told him Graf has had a variety of shapes from year to year and within models in the same year. He likes the brand, but some years they fit him and some years they don't.
Having, like the majority here, a life away from the rink, I've been handling a family crisis in another country and not paying close attention, but hasn't this thread rambled away from the OP's inquiry? I won't have time to dip in again or follow up with this topic, but just saying.....
Oh, and to OP one more bit of advice: For a non-Edea boot, you can lace the boot from inside out, so not the "Edea" way. This will push the tongue down on your foot more, reducing that space.
OP you have never told us your level (even though multiple posters have asked...) but why not at least try on the Jackson Debut or Supreme low cut? The Debut might have the same fit in the toebox that you don't like (as it's also from the fusion line) but the Supreme has a different fit that you may prefer. You can also change the stiffness if the 80 is too much for you (unsure if this is possible through rapid custom, or if you have to go full custom). In any case, a custom Jackson is about on par price-wise with the grafs you mentioned originally. Honestly Avanta might be a good option for you if you are fine with spending $$$$$$$. They do all their own mounting and servicing for their boots, so you would not need to go through a local tech. It's better if you have someone local who can do small stretches, punch outs and mounting adjustments, but in my experience with Avanta I've actually found their distance work to be just as good as my local guy. They take their work very, very seriously to the point that they literally called me on FaceTime once to ask to see my bunions up close 
Yes- I'm definitely thinking about that second category of toe point in which you articulate through the ankle to further extend the line ! Bingo!!
it's technically more of a foot point though but you get my drift Aesthetically a lower heel might definitely help with the first type, but you definitely need a low cut back stay for the second type
When I first started skating I had really flimsy old pond skates, so I really miss being able to point my toe that much, especially since I was always getting compliments on publics
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Unless I missed something, you still haven't indicated your intended skating style (freestyle, dance, pairs...), or current skating level. E.g., are you jumping, and what jumps? Are you ice dancing, and at what level? Without that info, I don't see how advice about which boots to buy can be all that useful.
I don't know what you mean by pond skates. Do you mean cheap skates that offer almost no protective support? if anything, outdoor ice tends to be rougher, and sometimes you stop abruptly on a patch of dirt, or a section of ice that is frozen harder than the ice around it, so you might actually want more support.
If you have an option, skating on natural poorly maintained ponds is not a great idea while figure skating. For one thing, it wears out your blades fairly fast, because outdoor ice is generally not very clean. And because of the roughness, you might be better off in nordic skates than figure skates. They aren't designed for figure skating tricks, but they can handle rough ice a lot better, and if you are talking about skating cross-country on large lakes, long canals or rivers, can be faster. They are designed for distance travel rather than tricks. Some nordic blades are designed to mount on cross country ski boot (e.g., NNN) bindings. A completely different beast, designed for completely different purposes. I tried them, but decided it wasn't my thing - and not much outdoor cross-country skating is available near me.
You can buy cheap flimsy skates many places. But if you are going up in skating level, or maybe even if not, they would not last you very long, and could easily let you injure yourself. It's not worth injuring yourself!
If you have the flexibility for an unusually large point of that sort, maybe a low cut back would help. Then again, I'm not clear how well your current skates are broken in. If they aren't broken in much, they might get a little more flexible. And people who know what they are doing sometimes modify boots by adding flex notches to add a bit more flexibility - but sometimes at a cost in boot longevity. Overbooting is NOT going to be useful for helping you point your toes for the type of foot point you are talking about. Because that type of point often does involve bending the boot a little. Likewise, for very deep edged ice dance, you may actually want a little sideways ankle flexibility, provided your feet and connecting muscles have the muscle development to take it - which many people don't.
Like tstop4me indicated, a heat mold + punches by a really good shop might solve most of your problems with your current boots. You may not even need to change boots. Depending on many factors.
The lack of contact in the middle of the foot bottoms - because of your high arches? - can possibly be solved by modifying insoles. You could just stick a little cloth athletic tape under the insoles in the area you need to increase the height to create contact. (But: high arches are not a problem I personally have experience with. E.g., I don't know whether you would benefit from using a foam tape - like moleskin, if you want your arches to collapse more gradually than your insole would otherwise allow if you fill the extra space with uncompressible tape. That is, if your arches can collapse significantly without causing pain or injury.)
I'll warn you again that I'm not an expert. Though I've done a lot more boot and insole modification than most skaters, rather than buying new boots. Most skaters don't have the patience, and many don't have the analytic minds needed to figure out what kind of modifications they can make to their boots and insoles to make things work. If you want rapid results, and aren't willing or able to do a lot of experimentation, the type of insole modification I'm talking about may not be for you. And very few skate techs know anything about that sort of thing. It's closer to what podiatrists or orthotists do - but they charge a lot, if your insurance doesn't cover that.
But possibly except for the lack of center contact, finding a really good skate tech should really be your first step. They can help you figure out what you need.
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