Are Evan and Johnny going in the wrong direction?

[Buttercup]

The only thing some of the main guys should be scrapping are their costumes (I'm looking at you, Brian and Evan). Other than that they should maybe add transitions, up the levels, but good lord, not scrap their programs in some crazed panic?!

I agree with everything you wrote. Panic is a terrbile reaction to one disappointing competition, and will likely be counterproductive. At this point, they should tinker, not start from scratch. Except for the costumes, definitely!

Someone should do a figure skating special of What Not to Wear with these guys. I'm not sure which is more of a travesty, Evan's Christmas Penguin or Brian's Well-Feathered look.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Interesting comments on prerotations. We had quite a discussion on that not too long ago. Apparently, it is overlooked in scoring by the Tech Panel and the fans. The most obvious element in question is the Loop Jump and especially as the last jump in a trio combo.

Has anyone ever heard of a Tech Panel calling a prerotation? Do the judges actually give it -Goes?

 

[Jaana]

Evan Lysacek is a grown-up. He can say no - even to Tatiana Tarasova! Though he may wish to duck first .

Yes, of course everyone can say "no", but Lysacek wanted and got the whole package (music, choreography and costumes) from Tarasova and I think it was good at least to give a try-out for the costumes. They are really awful and I hope so much that he will change them quickly, please....

 

[KayMil01]

Didn't Tanith say anything about how she dislikes his costumes?! c'mon, she has to!

 

[Bennett]

Johnny said in his post-SA press conference that the 3T + 3Lz was supposed to be a 3-jump combo -- I assume the 3-2-2 that was listed. And the 3F he 2-footed was supposed to be a 3F + 2T. Added to the 3A + 2T, that would be the full 3 combinations.

I know it's not what was published before SA. But that's what he said -- he didn't fail to plan but did fail to execute.

I like 3 combinations better than 2 ... but I still don't like the jump layout. I want the 3A + 3T from last year back.

Susan

Thanks for your explanations! So he couldn't do it even though he planned to. I hope that he could put three combos next times. Since he lost with such a slight margin, I felt it regrettable for him.

 

[mskater93]

Interesting comments on prerotations. We had quite a discussion on that not too long ago. Apparently, it is overlooked in scoring by the Tech Panel and the fans. The most obvious element in question is the Loop Jump and especially as the last jump in a trio combo.

Has anyone ever heard of a Tech Panel calling a prerotation? Do the judges actually give it -Goes?

YES - Asada got it several times on the 3T at the back 1/2 of her combination (and well deserved on those occasons) and Rachel Flatt was hit for one at Nationals in 07

 

[vlaurend]

YES - Asada got it several times on the 3T at the back 1/2 of her combination (and well deserved on those occasons) and Rachel Flatt was hit for one at Nationals in 07

Yes, also, Kimmie Meissner was getting dinged for pre-rotation on her 3T last season (also when it was the 2nd jump in combination). Per the ISU's technical instructions, the toeloop can be downgraded if the toe has turned to face forward before takeoff. There is no such provision for pre-rotation on any of the other jumps, so as far as I know, we've only seen pre-rotation downgrades on the toeloop.

 

[Tonichelle]

Holy crap, are you kidding! The absolute last thing anyone should be doing right now is scrapping their programs, especially since, as you say, every decision really matters!!!
Scrapping programs that he worked on all summer will turn his world upside down, and he'll start doubting himself even more than he usually does! Past experience has shown this.

Evan Lysacek scrapped Grease for Carmen right before US Nationals in the Olympic year and it was a complete turn around score wise... scrapping programs can work once in a while (I personally thought Grease had potential, but the judges didn't agree)

 

[Wrlmy]

I really liked Grease. It's my favorite competitive program of his.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Per the ISU's technical instructions, the toeloop can be downgraded if the toe has turned to face forward before takeoff.

The skating foot, not the picking foot.

EVERYONE rotates at least a 1/4 turn on the Toeloop before the picking foot leaves the ice and going up to a 1/2 turn is extremely common (some go more than that, which should be accounted for when determining how much leeway they get on the landing - Kimmie Meissner's toeloops are a perfect example).

About the prerotation - it is an impressive amount of prerotation for both Lysacek and Weir. I looked at other skaters and Lambiel, especially later in his career, also had a lot of prerotation. Joubert seems to be pretty good though, he cheats perhaps 1/4 of a turn. Yagudin and Plushenko had really amazing Quads.

Yagudin indeed had an excellent Quad.

And guess what:

His toepick leaves the ice a half rotation into the jump.

It is not a "cheat". This is how jumps work.

No Quad is 4 rotations in the air. No Triple (excluding a well done 3Axel) is 3 rotations in the air either. Certainly not the Toeloop, Salchow, or Loop to be sure. On the Flip and Lutz, some skaters have a technique which can force 3 full rotations in the air because of not rotating their toepick on the ice before jumping, and almost all of them ended up having trouble with that jump:

Kurt Browning's toepick would leave the ice with no prerotation at all on his Lutz (or even be outside of where the start point jump for the jump should be). The result? It was his most inconsistent jump (he stopped even attempting it in 1994) and often didn't rotate 3 full turns anyway. Look at how short he is on the landing of the Lutz in his 1993 World Championship Long Program as an example of what can happen. In terms of total rotation in the air when compared to other skaters, that jump was perfectly fine. But, because the foot leaves the ice so soon, he ends up landing what would considered to be 1/3-1/2 of a rotation short (and subsequently needs to put his second foot down onto the ice to stabilize himself). The toepick on his Flip behaved in the same manner and that jump wasn't his most steady either.

Tara Lipinski is the only person I've seen who has been able to consistently pull off 3 rotations in the air. It was with the Flip. Her picking foot on that jump would be totally backwards (in relation to the camera being at her back side) when she left the ice and she would land completely backwards too. Brian Joubert comes closest to that on his Flip and Lutz.

You don't want 3 full rotations. You want the foot to be on the ice a bit short of being completely backwards so that you have a smooth exit.

 

[antmanb]

I don't believe it is impossible. One is just required to be more creative, think outside the box or artistic. If it is impossible then their is no point of having PCs and the whole point of Cop would be a fraud.

DING DING DING! We have a winner. That is exactly the point. The judges peg the PCS to the TES. It is clear that the judges don't actually evaluate each part of the PCS independantly since all of the marks are within the same range despite some skaters clearly having much better skating skills than they do choreography or interpretation.

Without a quad (for the men) or a 3/3(for the ladies) the higher PCS will simply not be given by the judges. Is this wrong? Absolutely it is. Does it happen? Absoutely it does.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

Jeffrey Buttle was very good at picking music that suited his style and wasn't being used by every other skater from novice level and up. Ararat is not exactly Tosca. He never did Carmen, Swan Lake, Romeo and Juliet, Nessun Dorma, etc. Johnny needs to stay original and drop the quad; I think that should trigger at least some change for the better.

I think that whatever happens Johnny's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't (how many times have i written that?!). He stays true to himself and refuses to add the quad and all we hear is endless whining that he doesn't have a quad, medalists have quads, when is he going to add the quad? So he adds the quad gets it IMO incorrectly downgraded at worlds, and struggles with it at his first competition of the season and suddenly everyone's saying ditch the quad, who needs the quad, look at Buttle last year.

I think Johnny's doing the right thing. Spend this entire season pulling that quad out in every LP he does, downgraded or not, just to see how he fairs for an entire season trying it. At the end of the season he can see how many times he's tried it versus landed it, how it affected his program, what the reasons were for him landing it (if that was the case) and then he can go into the off season with a firm strategy for the Olympic season and he and his team can make an informed decision on whether to quad or not to quad.

Ant

 

[Buttercup]

I think Johnny's doing the right thing. Spend this entire season pulling that quad out in every LP he does, downgraded or not, just to see how he fairs for an entire season trying it. Ant

Ant, on the whole I agree that panic reactions are not what's needed, certainly not so early. My concern with Johnny is that the quad chase is distracting him from doing some of things he normally excels at. It is possible that with time he'll gain confidence and it won't be as much of an issue for him, so he'll be able to put more energy into other aspects of his skating. On the other hand, Johnny started skating late and picked things up very fast - didn't he land an axel within a week of starting to skate? So what does it tell us that he can't get the quad as a consistent jump? He is 24 now. Could it be that he's gone as far as he can go? I honestly don't know.

I'm not sure Johnny should be shooting for the top of the podium; I think with Buttle everything came together for him while the other faltered. But Johnny can and should aim for medals, and those he can, on occasion, win without a quad. But then, maybe you're right that he's better off finding out where he stands now and not in an Olympic season.

I've stated here in the past that I feel skaters who can get a consistent quad should be doing it, not holding back. But I'm not sure Johnny can get a consistent quad, and trying to may be harmful to his skating overall. I hope he'll prove me wrong.

 

[antmanb]

Despite your nationality? What in the world does your nationality have to do with anything?!? I don't even know what country you are from, nor do I see how it would be relevant here. Are there countries where people don't tell jokes? :scratch: You sound kind of paranoid......

Next time you make a joke, use an appropriate emoticon biggrin: or or would work)

Or perhaps you could be simply less attacking! In Europe we all tend to make sweeping generalisations about (and make fun of) different nation's senses of humour (or perceived lack thereof). I understood Medusa perfectly well. Perhaps it is you who should relax a little!

Ant

 

[antmanb]

Ant, on the whole I agree that panic reactions are not what's needed, certainly not so early. My concern with Johnny is that the quad chase is distracting him from doing some of things he normally excels at. It is possible that with time he'll gain confidence and it won't be as much of an issue for him, so he'll be able to put more energy into other aspects of his skating. On the other hand, Johnny started skating late and picked things up very fast - didn't he land an axel within a week of starting to skate? So what does it tell us that he can't get the quad as a consistent jump? He is 24 now. Could it be that he's gone as far as he can go? I honestly don't know.

I'm not sure Johnny should be shooting for the top of the podium; I think with Buttle everything came together for him while the other faltered. But Johnny can and should aim for medals, and those he can, on occasion, win without a quad. But then, maybe you're right that he's better off finding out where he stands now and not in an Olympic season.

I've stated here in the past that I feel skaters who can get a consistent quad should be doing it, not holding back. But I'm not sure Johnny can get a consistent quad, and trying to may be harmful to his skating overall. I hope he'll prove me wrong.

I agree with you and wonder if Johnny can get a consistent quad, but the only way he will know is (like Buttle) to try it in every competition for at least as season and see where the chips fall. If he has frim proof at the end of a season with a pile of protocols that his programs could have been better and could have scored more highly without the quad and related URs and -GOEs then his path for the Olympic season is clearly set out for him.

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Or perhaps you could be simply less attacking! In Europe we all tend to make sweeping generalisations about (and make fun of) different nation's senses of humour (or perceived lack thereof). I understood Medusa perfectly well. Perhaps it is you who should relax a little!Ant

Bravo!

Back on Topic: I haven't really noticed Evan or Johnny prerotating their jumps, but I will look closely next time. Mirai, however, gave a 3 quarter prerotation in one of her concluding loop jumps. Generally speaking, I think one can tell prerotation by timing the attempt and the take off. When YuNa does a combo, all her jumps are timed one after another. No time to prerotate.

Worst scenario is when a skater flutzes and then prerotates the wrong edge takeoff.

 

[DragonPhoenix]

DING DING DING! We have a winner. That is exactly the point. The judges peg the PCS to the TES. It is clear that the judges don't actually evaluate each part of the PCS independantly since all of the marks are within the same range despite some skaters clearly having much better skating skills than they do choreography or interpretation.

Without a quad (for the men) or a 3/3(for the ladies) the higher PCS will simply not be given by the judges. Is this wrong? Absolutely it is. Does it happen? Absoutely it does.

Ant

:agree:

Completely agree. Great point.

I haven't been trusting PCS for a long time. I don't put any great stock in them.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

^^

As it was explained to me the PCS scores are not Performance Component but Program Component scores which take in a lot of bagage unrelated to anything of the aritstic endeavor.

For example, one component will judge Skating Skills. Apparently, that wasn't seen in the Technical Score, so if a skater does a quad, it means he has executed the ultimate in jumping skills. It may even blur anything else he does.
Nothing to do with artistry.

To keep on topc: Johnny and Evan may well have to do a text book quad to keep their PCS up.

 

[antmanb]

^^

As it was explained to me the PCS scores are not Performance Component but Program Component scores which take in a lot of bagage unrelated to anything of the aritstic endeavor.

For example, one component will judge Skating Skills. Apparently, that wasn't seen in the Technical Score, so if a skater does a quad, it means he has executed the ultimate in jumping skills. It may even blur anything else he does.
Nothing to do with artistry.

I suppose sometimes we default back to what the second mark was called when we first started watching skating, which for me, was artistic impression.

Some might argue that the interpretation and/or choreography side of the PCS is where people are coming from in discussing artistry, whether or not the actual criteria for those PCS refer to it or not.

Ant

 

[Blades of Passion]

When YuNa does a combo, all her jumps are timed one after another. No time to prerotate.

She does prerotate. Just like everyone else who is a human being on planet Earth and not an ectoplasmic creature from another galaxy.

But, she certainly pre-rotates less than the norm, so that's commendable.