Maia And Alex Shibutani announce return to competitive skating

[BlissfulSynergy]

The sport has changed. I don't really have an opinion on the "better or worse" part. Audiences will vote with their feet and their purses.

It is certainly safe to say that if John Curry were magiclly transported to the present day with his 1970s skill set he would lose to Ilia Malinin under the current scoring conventions. If Malinin went back in time and did six quads in competition against Curry's Don Quixote program at the 1976 Olympics -- people would be flabbergasted, but "Is it figure skating?"

Stop!!! Ilia would be seen as some kind of magical, unreal, whirling dervish from outer space.

I can see Hollywood making a movie about it, though.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

In the case of Curry, it's not even hypothetical. He was brilliant as a ballet-on-ice guy, but his advisors told him that he would have to butch up his act if he ever wanted to win any international competitions. He changed coaches (to king-maker Carlo Fassi) and at the 1976 Olympics he excelled by doing a triple toe loop AND a triple Salchow AND a triple loop!

The judges liked it. Seven of the nine judges put Curry first, the holdouts being the Canadian judge who went with Toller Cranston and the Soviet judge who put Vladimir Kovalev first. Imagine that.

Yes. That's why I said, Curry might have been an ice dancer today. For sure, Curry had a great deal of influence on all disciplines. After his OGM, he created theater on ice incorporating his love of dance with ice skating. He worked with and impacted many skaters, especially ice dancers.

If Curry had been born in this era, he would at least optimally have had the chance to flourish as himself without being told to "skate butch." As we know, that unfortunate attitude which promoted the necessity to butch-up male skating was heavily prevalent right up through Johnny Weir's time, even affecting the careers of Jeremy Abbott and Adam Rippon to some degree. Fortunately, for the men's field today, because of the battles fought by Curry, Cranston, Galindo, Weir, et al., men in skating have largely been freed to express all aspects of who they are on the ice regardless of their sexual orientation. It is their skill, passion, and humanity which matter most. Of course, many battles continue, as certain negative attitudes and perceptions within the sport and our larger culture have not changed.

 

[Mathman]

Of course, the sport has evolved, debatably for better or worse in some ways.

I think the difficulty lies in the word "evolved." In common usage this word usually carries a value judgment that the evolved fiorm is "better" than the primitive form -- or at least more complex. Fish evolved into monkeys by natural selection. Monkeys are more highly evolved creatures.

To say that T&R only won 1979 Worlds because R/Z weren't there is an odd statement,

Right you are! I should have said that Tai and Randy won the world championship WHEN Rodina took the year off, not "because."

However some things are simply facts. Tai and Randy competed in five world chmpionships prior to 1979, finishing 10th, 10th, 5th, 3rd and 3rd. Rodnina an and Zaitsev won them all. In 1979 Rodnina did not compete. Tai and Randy won the gold medal over the #2 Russian team, 14-year-old Marina Cherkasova and her partner. No dis to Tai and Randy, they were just rounding into form by 19798-98. We don;t know what would have happened if Randy hadn't been injured at the 1980 Olympics, (But we do know that Riodnina and Zaitsev were ahead after the short program before the injury occurred.)

Stop!!! Ilia would be seen as some kind of magical, unreal, whirling dervish from outer space.

Yes, that is certainly true. But would he have been seen as a figure skater?

For one thing, he never trained (as far as I know) or competed in compulsory figures. This was the advantage that John Curry had over Toller Cranston, that Scott Hamilton had over Brian Orser, that Trixi Schuba had over everyone. (Schuba was actually an atrocious free skater, She was quite often booed off the ice at competitions that she won, poor thing.)

Now if you mean, what if Ilia had been born in 1964, trained to be a figure skater all his young life, then zoomed up to the 2020s and learned how to do quads, then went back to 1976 -- yup, there's your science fiction movie. .

 

[TallyT]

If Malinin went back in time and did six quads in competition against Curry's Don Quixote program at the 1976 Olympics -- people would be flabbergasted, but "Is it figure skating?"

And now I think of it, when did quads actually get to be pointworthy anyway? Would even he bother with them all if the scoring system meant he flubbed on other 6.0 criteria (and as @Mathman says, the figures) and therefore slid down the scores.... ouch.

Heck Elizaveta Tuktamysheva was world champ and never made it to the Olympics

That still hurts a little

The Shibs may not make it to the Olympics... hey, for one reason or another even if they weren't giving it a bash, any of the other ID couples might not be there.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I think the difficulty lies in the word "evolved." In common usage this word usually carries a value judgment that the evolved fiorm is "better" than the primitive form --

Semantics... Everything changes, some things for the better. And things were certainly not perfect in previous eras. Had certain challenges been more fully examined and solutions thought through earlier, the sport might not be facing the multitude of problems it faces today, which for the most part, go ignored, minimized, misunderstood and/ or mishandled.

I don't necessarily see a negative connotation in the usage of 'evolved,' which echoes @TontoK's earlier reference. The sport may have evolved in certain respects and regressed in others. Competitively, fs remains mired in antiquated practices and approaches that do not serve athletes nor the sport very well.

Now if you mean, what if Ilia had been born in 1964, trained to be a figure skater all his young life, then zoomed up...

LOL! This is not my time travel scenario. It is yours and @TontoK's.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

For one thing, he never trained (as far as I know) or competed in compulsory figures

Probably not. I wonder whether Ilia's parents did? They may have had some exposure to figures practice, if not competition in their early careers. They are both very good coaches/ teachers. They were Vanessa James' first coaches as a very young skater on the beginning levels in the U.S. when Vanessa's family lived in the D.C. / Virginia area.

However some things are simply facts. Tai and Randy competed in five world chmpionships prior to 1979, finishing 10th, 10th, 5th, 3rd and 3rd. Rodnina an and Zaitsev won them all. In 1979 Rodnina did not compete. Tai and Randy won the gold medal over the #2 Russian team, 14-year-old Marina Cherkasova and her partner. No dis to Tai and Randy, they were just rounding into form by 19798-98. We don;t know what would have happened if Randy hadn't been injured at the 1980 Olympics, (But we do know that Riodnina and Zaitsev were ahead after the short program before the injury occurred.)

As I said earlier, R/Z were the older, more experienced star champions. Over this described period, T&R were the precocious new kids on int'l competion ice, who had to work their way up and prove themselves to the judges, clearly. That doesn't mean they did not deserve higher placements at some of these competitions. Back then, skaters did not skate the jam-packed season that they do today. Thus, there were fewer competitive opportunites, but T&R's rise was remarkable and steady. They oozed with recognizable talent from the beginning of their career, almost as soon as Mabel Fairbanks partnered them for pairs training and performing in local shows at ages 7 and 8. John Nicks later shepherded T&R to great heights. ️

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

And now I think of it, when did quads actually get to be pointworthy anyway?

Circa Patrick Chan 2011-2012, post Plushenko's hissy fit at the 2010 Olympics after Evan Lysacek won the OGM sans quads.

The problem was that quads became overvalued after Patrick Chan mastered the ability to land one or two combined with his aesthetic skills. Even if guys fell attempting a quad, they would receive full credit. Eventually, the ISU realized the stupidity and reduced the rewards for quads with falls or missteps. And then, young Nathan Chen, prior to turning senior, saw how newbie-to-seniors, Boyang Jin, was rewarded with a bronze medal two years in a row for his quad lutz/ triple combo. Nathan said, "You want quads, I'll give you quads." History was made by Nathan at 2017 U.S. Nationals: five quads landed in a clean fp! At that time, Hanyu, Javi, et al., were still trying to manage three quads in a fp and had not yet done so cleanly.

The applecart was upset not only for judging but also for men's pecking order, and the ISU and other feds did not like it. They had to change their over-rewarding of quads and tweak GOE to maintain judging autonomy. It took Nathan's rare prowess to reduce scoring for quads to a more reasonable value level.

 

[Magill]

If Malinin went back in time and did six quads in competition against Curry's Don Quixote program at the 1976 Olympics -- people would be flabbergasted, but "Is it figure skating?"

No need to time travel for it. This question is being asked quite often even now, and it has been for some time, with many people claiming that no, this is not figure skating,

The sport has changed. I don't really have an opinion on the "better or worse" part. Audiences will vote with their feet and their purses.

Oh, and they do, they do. They have been doing it all the time, with chances to get a ticket to certain events close to those of being admitted to Harvard, while leaving sad empty rows and sectors in some others.
Talk to organizers, they know very well which ones are which and who brings them golden apples in the business (and who does not).

 

[nguyhm]

Heck Elizaveta Tuktamysheva was world champ and never made it to the Olympics

Then Maria Sotskova went to the Olympics and faded away.

 

[CellarDweller]

BTW... just so you know ... Alex is in the same category as Max is. Thought we needed to establish that

LOL - no worries, he's all yours!

 

[Mathman]

And now I think of it, when did quads actually get to be pointworthy anyway?

Circa Patrick Chan 2011-2012, post Plushenko's hissy fit at the 2010 Olympics after Evan Lysacek won the OGM sans quads.

It is hard to pin down the term "pointworthy" in the era before the IJS, but I think that there has been a constant pressure throughout the history of competitive skating to "up the technical ante." One person does an extra revolution, then another joins the game, and first thing you know everybody who IS anybody has to do it to keep pace. In the mid 1990s every lady was doing a triple toe as her solo jump in the short program. By the end of the decade you had to upgrade to a triple flip or you were out of the running. In men's the first triple Axel was performed in competition in 1978. A decade later "everybody" was doing it.

I think the watershed period for quads was 2002 when the whole Olympic podium comprised quadsters of note, In the LP Yagudin and Plushenko each did a quad and Goebel did three. (Yagudin had planned two but when Plushenko faltered in the SP Alexei realized that he didn't need the second quad after all, and bailed.) In fact, I have read that in the preliminary version of the IJS (2003) the dry run tests of the system, using previous years' tapes, gave Goebel the gold medal, despite his second mark limitations. This would never do, so the ISU massaged the infant IJS until they got is so that Yagudin won in the mock judging.

The ISU has yo-yoed up and down ever since, but the quadsters generally manage to stay ahead of the ISU rules-tweakers. The 2010 clash between Plushenko and Lysacek was interesting because, to use a baseball analogy, the slugger (Plushenko) was outpointed in TES by the "smallballer" who wins with a base hit, a stolen base, a sacrifice bunt and an outfield fly. (In a weird sort of role reversal, Plushenko won the PCS battle, while Lysacek won on tech.)

 

[FSFan1999]

It is hard to pin down the term "pointworthy" in the era before the IJS, but I think that there has been a constant pressure throughout the history of competitive skating to "up the technical ante." One person does an extra revolution, then another joins the game, and first thing you know everybody who IS anybody has to do it to keep pace. In the mid 1990s every lady was doing a triple toe as her solo jump in the short program. By the end of the decade you had to upgrade to a triple flip or you were out of the running. In men's the first triple Axel was performed in competition in 1978. A decade later "everybody" was doing it.

I think the watershed period for quads was 2002 when the whole Olympic podium comprised quadsters of note, In the LP Yagudin and Plushenko each did a quad and Goebel did three. (Yagudin had planned two but when Plushenko faltered in the SP Alexei realized that he didn't need the second quad after all, and bailed.) In fact, I have read that in the preliminary version of the IJS (2003) the dry run tests of the system, using previous years' tapes, gave Goebel the gold medal, despite his second mark limitations. This would never do, so the ISU massaged the infant IJS until they got is so that Yagudin won in the mock judging.

The ISU has yo-yoed up and down ever since, but the quadsters generally manage to stay ahead of the ISU rules-tweakers. The 2010 clash between Plushenko and Lysacek was interesting because, to use a baseball analogy, the slugger (Plushenko) was outpointed in TES by the "smallballer" who wins with a base hit, a stolen base, a sacrifice bunt and an outfield fly. (In a weird sort of role reversal, Plushenko won the PCS battle, while Lysacek won on tech.)

Plushenko and Yagudin both did 2 quads in 2002 IIRC (in fact plusheko I think made history, or tried to with the first four elements - trying 4+3+3 but stepping out, and 3A+eu+3F). But Yagudin took out the 2nd triple axel and did a 3S instead.

Plushenko in general missed out by front loading tech. But he also once lost a GPF to (I think Emanuel Sandhu) for adding an extra combo back when they invalidated both elements if there was an extra combo, and lost a 3A. He (and Mishin) werent raised during the ISU jump math period, and for me it definitely showed.

 

[Mathman]

Plushenko and Yagudin both did 2 quads in 2002 IIRC (in fact plusheko I think made history, or tried to with the first four elements - trying 4+3+3 but stepping out, and 3A+eu+3F). But Yagudin took out the 2nd triple axel and did a 3S instead.

Right you are, thanks for the corrections. So the top three landed a total of 5 quads in the LP,, plus Takeshi Honda and Chengjiang Li each attempted both a 4T+3T and a 4S, but not successfully. So I do think that this competition is the one that cemented the ascendancy of the quad.

By the way, I rewatched Yagudin's Man in the Iron Mask to refresh my memory about the jumps, and I was really struck by how each jump was woven into the choreography as both a technical and a performance highlight. I think that this has been lost in the recent rush to the top of the quad heap.

 

[moonvine]

My absolute favorite sibling pair in ID ever. Excited to see them back. I know they wanted to come back last quad but illness kept them away. I'm happy she's healthy enough now to make a comeback.

Her health is the most important thing.

 

[ilsalund]

Maia and Alex are scheduled to be on CBS Mornings today.

 

[Mathman]

Maia and Alex are scheduled to be on CBS Mornings today.

I missed it this morning, but here is the segment from You Tube.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

In addition to skating, Maia and Alex were also asked about their new book, which celebrates the contributions of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders, some of them not well-known now. In the category of brother-sister combos, there is a page devoted to Willa Kim, a prominent costume designer (and Tony winner) for stage, screen and dance, and her brother Young-Oak Kim, a much decorated military hero in World War II.

Young-Oak Kim's first assignment was to a unit off U.S. soldiers all of Japanese ancestry. When the army realized he was Korean, they offered hm a transfer to avoid possible friction, but he said nonsense, we are Americans.

(Is this off-topic for a figure skating board? Au contraire! One of Willa Kim's early credits was costume designer for the 1941 musical "It happened on ice," produced by Sonia Henie and Arthur Wirtz, owner of the Chicago Black Hawks hockey team. )

 

[Blades of Passion]

Right you are, thanks for the corrections. So the top three landed a total of 5 quads in the LP, plus Takeshi Honda and Chengjiang Li each attempted both a 4T+3T and a 4S. So I do think that this competition is the one that cemented the ascendancy of the quad.

By the way, I rewatched Yagudin's Man in the Iron Mask to refresh my memory about the jumps, and I was really struck by how each jump was woven into the choreography as both a technical and a performance highlight. I think that this has been lost in the recent rush to the top of the quad heap.

A total of 7* quads in the LP between them.

I would say 1999 Worlds cemented the quad as being necessary to win (this was also the first year the quad was allowed in the Short Program). At that competition and every Worlds afterward until IJS, nobody was able to place higher than 3rd without a quad. And then from 2002-2004 you needed a quad to even reach 3rd place. Things went backwards for few years with IJS but then in 2011 the quad became necessary again, with the new rules. Although those rules also sucked at the same time, because from 2011-2018 jumps with mistakes were given far too many points.

Quads used to be so much more exciting, because they were definitely presented more impactfully in the programs and also because of what the jump technique used to be, where everyone went into quads with a lot of speed and were expected to jump HUGE and actually complete the rotation entirely in the air. Now we have the mechanical setups of people whipping themselves into the air, usually with a pre-rotated takeoff, and having a calculated skid on the landing as they complete the rotation. Many quads these days actually look less impressive than a great triple with ideal technique.

 

[labgoat]

By the way, I rewatched Yagudin's Man in the Iron Mask to refresh my memory about the jumps, and I was really struck by how each jump was woven into the choreography as both a technical and a performance highlight. I think that this has been lost in the recent rush to the top of the quad heap.

I agree - it was a great example of figure skating being both a sport and an art as Mr Button and Ms. Fleming liked to say. Compliments to Ms Tarasova for the choreography.

 

[skatemd1]

I don't feel sorry really. Green and Parsons were never guaranteed a spot to the Olympics. They didn't qualify for Montreal's worlds. They barely qualified for Boston's worlds... they could be passed by a number of teams that are not the Shibs... Shibs are not exactly guaranteed that third spot. As a matter of fact, even CP are not guaranteed they will be USA's number 2. The ice dance field in the USA is deep and ever changing.

The truth is that in a sportive career, some will go to the Olympics, very few will, most will not. What skaters need to do is to control what they can control and come up with their best performances so they earn their own tickets. The rest is not up to them. It has to do with judging, with how well their competitors do.. etc... and even luck.

There are skaters who just never make it to the Olympics... Some have been as high as 5th in the world but never managed to qualify for the Olympics... for instance because their country didn't have more than one spot... or injuries plagued them... or whatever reason. It is what it is and though I will admit to some sympathy when athletes miss out their qualification, sometimes by hundreds of points or seconds, but not when others qualified because they were simply better.

Again, time will tell who will be the top 3 teams for the USA next season.

I think Green and Parsons are clearly the 2nd best US team after Chock/Bates and have paid their dues many times over and earned a spot on the US Olympic team. They finished in the top-10 at the last Worlds, never do cookie cutter programs, always bring something fresh and new to the sport, their expression comes off as real not forced like so many other teams, and they are technically and artistically amazing. Like I said, they should be USA's number-two team. I wish them well this season.

 

[4everchan]

I think Green and Parsons are clearly the 2nd best US team after Chock/Bates and have paid their dues many times over and earned a spot on the US Olympic team. They finished in the top-10 at the last Worlds, never do cookie cutter programs, always bring something fresh and new to the sport, their expression comes off as real not forced like so many other teams, and they are technically and artistically amazing. Like I said, they should be USA's number-two team. I wish them well this season.

I have liked and disliked some of their material... but their main issue is that US judges like CPOM better.