Good for you, ISU
- Thread starter Mathman
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To me, that is the dilemma that figure skating faces, both as sport and as entertainment.
The entertainment industry is full of comedians and lovely ladies. Why do we need comedians and lovely ladies -- on skates?
The sports world is overflowing with athletes who jump high. Why do we need athletes who jump high -- on skates?
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Hyoen is hard to find on YouTube indeed. Perhaps they have enough audience in Japan... I think all sorts of conceptual shows are interesting, and it's good to hear that producers gain from experience.I feel truly happy that you liked the subforum about ice shows! Actually, I felt so happy that I started there a new thread about old shows (I mentioned you there and also posted the link to Cinderella). Can I hope that you will contribute to it?
I can but agree about Pluschenko's version. I think that the popularity of figure skating in Russia and and his own popularity has served him badly because spectators flock to watch his shows even if the production is below par.
In Japan tough, the competition is harsh and the producers of ice shows need to improve and experiment. Hyoen is my favorite series for the same reason which disappointed you: it's a genre fusion by concept. But, even if you don't like this concept, you can easily notice how much the production has improved between 2017 and, let's say, 2024. (I'm not sure about how much of the latest shows can be found on YouTube though; @synesthesia maybe you could start a thread about Hyoen 2022 and 2024 on YouTube if you have saved some playlists?) What is interesting for me in this series and also in Cirque du Soleil ice shows is how the use of ice allows to interpret the movement and the flow between the segments of the show and, accordingly, what new possibilities it opens for storytelling.
And, regarding Hyoen, I think your criticism is noteworthy because it lists the reasons why figure skating fans outside of Japan may shun these shows and hence I would happily to see your comments in the respective threads of the show subforum where we can discuss the newest productions.
Kassuoya is a show with no talking, skating only, and no decorations at all actually - just lights to create atmo and some choreographically incorporated props here and there. The funny thing is that, by concept it does not have any narrative or story; it's just the flow of emotions that is expressed via choreography. But, since this flow of emotions remains organic, the result does feel like a story when you watch it
[I had to edit this paragraph because it was a bit misleading, sorry about it]:
This is turning into an off-topic discussion, and I am probably going to make it even more so by mentioning that the way you describe Kassuoya reminds me of Fokine and Balanchine ballets. I won't post links to avoid turning this into a ballet discussion, but they are searchable. They did things to Tchaikovsky, R-Korsakov, Chopin, Saint-Saens, Weber, Debussy, Faure, Yves, even Schumann, and quite a bit to Stravinsky. Fokine is more classical, Balanchine is more contemporary with classical ballet style, many of his ballets have no story and minimal staging. I'd never be much compelled to hear Concert Dances and Symphony in C, but with the addition of contemporary choreography it's a different way of perception. Yesterday I walked onto a FS program to the Rite of Spring from 1997: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KWtv_OuAl4&list=PLWGRcPSwJJgFY4ADC878DxuYE35C7WdwQ&index=50. The skater Dmytro Dmytrenko had a blast skating it, and then the public booed the judges for marks.
But we should move to the new thread with this, and I'll try to contribute to it.
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Things I miss in pairs nowadays are speed, lines, flow, synchronicity, attention to music, face to face pair spins, and pair spirals around the whole rink. Spins need not be long, but it's nice to see both sbs and pair spins in one program. Lifts need not labour through 4 difficult features, they are very impressive when done on speed. Here are a couple of examples:
www.youtube.com
I guess double twist was a required element, because top teams could do triples. But if they don't have to fight against a 3Tw4, why not start a program with a spin.
www.youtube.com
Fantasy-impromptu is a very fast music piece, but they made it work by doing more dynamic elements to fast sections and spirals and a spin to the slow section.
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Oh yes, Mayuko Oka is indeed a very capable skater, PCS-wise I think she is better than Mao Schimada.
About doing fewer than 7 jumping elements and backloading, it is not prohibited, but it is not profitable, so people don't do it. It was not uncommon for top-level singles skaters under 6.0 to do fewer jumping passes than the allowed maximum in the FS. As long as a man's program contained 1-2 quads and a 3A or a couple of 3As and a 3-3 combination, and the rest were triples, nobody cared if the person didn't do a 2A or a 3-2 combination to fill in the remaining slots. With women it also happened, I am pretty sure Tara Lipinsky won the OG with 6 jumping passes, two of which were 3-3, and Karo had 5 jumping passes in her Itzhak Perlman FS, I believe in 2003. Under 6.0, it might have been wise for someone like Gumennik to do 5 quads and a 3A-3T combo, and use the remaining time and manpower to incorporate more choreo and showcase SS. Under IJS, he'd get lower TES and probably not enough increase or even reduction in PCS.
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Thank you for your work!
Not that the information was new (for those who have not read the linked paper yet: it's from 2018 OGs), but it was good to see the subject material so well presented.
That's interesting: we are discussing the decline of figure skating popularity in the U.S. and one of the reasons for this is the U.S. public being disappointed with rigged judging. But then, we see that these are the UŠ. judges who have the most bias
The picture on the "national biasometer" - which is calculated and available at SkatingScores up to this day - is usually 50/50. Since half of the judges are biased and the other half is clean, conflicts between the two fractions exist, and we have seen those resulting in Balkov case i.e. So, the side taken by the fed matters.
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- Dec 4, 2004
Like you, I have more confidence. I would have even more if the judges country and name were next to their marks. After reading Oly judge Jon Jackson's book, On Edge, on how the ISU really operates, I will always be skeptical of its actions. IMOH its a shame that the USFS attempt to expose it and take it down failed..... and the ISU is still failing us. A convicted doping doctor is allowed to participate in the sport?
A judge that cheated can now still judge after the fact? The wife of a federation president can be on the technical/judging panel?
Really?
On Edge: Backroom Dealing, Cocktail Scheming, Triple Axels, and How Top Skaters Get Screwed: Jackson, Jon, James R. Pereira: Amazon.com: Books
On Edge: Backroom Dealing, Cocktail Scheming, Triple Axels, and How Top Skaters Get Screwed [Jackson, Jon, James R. Pereira] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. On Edge: Backroom Dealing, Cocktail Scheming, Triple Axels, and How Top Skaters Get Screwed
www.amazon.com
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- Dec 4, 2004
Good for you! Just curious...did you read Jon Jackson's book?
On Edge: Backroom Dealing, Cocktail Scheming, Triple Axels, and How Top Skaters Get Screwed: Jackson, Jon, James R. Pereira: Amazon.com: Books
On Edge: Backroom Dealing, Cocktail Scheming, Triple Axels, and How Top Skaters Get Screwed [Jackson, Jon, James R. Pereira] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. On Edge: Backroom Dealing, Cocktail Scheming, Triple Axels, and How Top Skaters Get Screwed
www.amazon.com
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- Dec 4, 2004
Someone needs to do a thesis on the decline of figure skating...not only in the US but in other countries as well. It is a very complex issue IMHO.I watched a documentary about judging scandals, I don't remember what it was called, but it came out a few years ago. It analyzed the 2002 scandal. From this documentary, I got an impression that ISU pushed the blame onto the French judge, but the reasons that led her to forging the marks, the pressure that she experienced and what went behind the scenes was not exposed, and culpable people were not punished. Instead the ISU came up with IJS and anonymous judging. I had a feeling that Jamie Sale and David Pelletier, the victims of the 2002 situation, didn't get a closure. It's great to get the gold, but it would be much nicer if the wrongdoing were exposed and corrected. Initially, when the French judge confessed about biased judging, Skate Canada initiated an investigation, but as soon as the second set of gold medals was awarded, Skate Canada was satisfied and withdrew. The main benefactors of the situation were Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze, partly thanks to Tamara Moskvina. She insisted that they go to the repeat victory ceremony. The media took this favourably, and they took advantage of the hype, the two golden couples doing commercials and performing in shows together, and they all made a lot of money. Berezhnaya was the only person in the documentary looking completely at peace. The main losers of the situation were Anisina and Peizerat, in whose favour the deal was apparently made. Maybe they didn't make it, didn't themselves pressure the judge, but after the scandal they were shunned and couldn't monetize on their olympic win.
I remember my reaction to IJS: it used to be a set of marks, where you understood that 4.0-5.0 was = thanks for coming, >5 was not bad, keep trying, 5.5-5.8 was pretty good (depending on the situation), and 5.9-6.0 was a likely win. With IJS it was some 2 or 3 digit numbers with 2 digits after a decimal point, so five significant digits instead of two, and no benchmark: what number is good? It was a few years before I worked through the rule-book, because tables of base values and abbreviations like FCCoSp4 or SiSt3 is not what an aesthetically oriented viewer is looking for in figure skating. At some point I noticed it became more interesting for me to look through the protocols than to watch the actual skating. I'd come home in the evening, download a protocol of a comp, look through it and think: OK, all clear, I don't need to watch. I fast-forwarded step sequences, because as difficult as rockers and counters are, they do not look as interesting as some simple steps done with speed, spectacular split jumps, or Sasha-spirals. What I like about IJS is that it gives some idea of score dynamics for a skater, measurable scoring goals.
I think there were many contributing factors for figure skating popularity decline pre-IJS: among them economic difficulties, scandals, exodus of some popular skaters to pros, opening of Eastern Europe and ensuing travel and migration opportunities, development in telecommunication and advancement of internet where you could do other things, e.g. chat on-line with other figure skating supporters.
Skating used to be bigger than basket ball in the US. I think part of the puzzel can be solved in understanding WHY skating is still very popular with the lady fans of Japan. I stand with them....you can have games of the ball....(Good luck with your new sport of Ice dancing Rika!)
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And the Russian fans too. Which other countries is it pretty popular in?
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- Jun 21, 2003
I think that the first obstacle would be to narrow down this sprawling topic to focus on a manageable theme.
Personally. I do not think that there is an answer to the question of why various pastimes come and go in public popularity. Cultures move on.
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- Dec 4, 2004
We certainly agree that cultures move on, or basically change. However, this change has been so rapid in the time frame of my long life that it is almost frightening. I went to quite a few shows pre-2002. Paid lots of sheckels for front row seats on the ice, litterally. It started with getting the last seat due to a cancelation at a Champions on ice show in spokane. By 2002, when I saw my first comp in Spokane, I was hooked. Champions on ice did 93 shows that season alone. Not sure about Stars on ice.
By USFS nats in spokane 2007 and 2010, figure skating in the US was still flying high. But by SA Kent WA and nats San Jose 2012, the hand writing was on the wall. Omaha 2013 promoters said, "Never again" they lost so much money. Looking at my pics through the years..Kansas City nats 2017 for instance...attendance was way down still. By skate america Everett WA, they were giving away tickets to the GALA to put bodies in the seats.
Now lets look at sports in Japan....you get a whole lot of ambiguous answers but I think this one has some meat in it. Keep in mind this is AI generated, a bit laughable and talks about "ice sports" ....Other lists, skating doesnt even make the top 10....unless you talk about female viewership. IMHO, just having stars does not explain why in Japan, skating events are still popular (and they have shows too) . Japan fans cheer for skaters of many countries.
5. Figure Skating
24% of Japanese people aged 18-79 enjoy watching ice sports
Japan won three out of the four disciplines at the 2023 ISU World Figure Skating Championship
The 2019 ISU World Figure Skating Championship saw packed arenas across Japan
In 2021, around 24% of Japanese people aged between 18 and 79 stated that they enjoy watching ice sports on TV or via the Internet, including figure skating.
What keeps this sport so popular is the athletes who practice it! The remarkable success of Japanese skaters on the international scene has significantly contributed to the sport’s increase in popularity.
The ISU World Figure Skating Championship 2023 confirmed that Japan takes figure skating very seriously, as they won three out of the four disciplines. This was the first time they achieved this major step.
In terms of viewership, competitive figure skating may no longer be quite as popular as other sports, but among Japanese fans, interest still remains strong.
Even though the crowd failed to fill the 16,000-capacity arena in 2023, especially compared to the 2019 packed arenas, the cheers and enthusiasm of the fans were enough to encourage participants to make history.
I think there are many other factors at play here, but clearly changes in culture is a big one.
Wiki has some good input. Read the part about why skating is a financial success and fav sports over the last 12 years
Sports in Japan - Wikipedia
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Canada is kind of a puzzel right now....when I went there for comps, attendance was good but it seemed to me many just went to support something Canadian. I will leave it to others to elaborate on attendance in this decade. Korea still seems to be well attended. While many can successfully argue their culture is vastly different than Japan's, I would argue that there are simularities and those are important.
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- Jan 31, 2019
I don't watch shows, because they are boring. I watch competitions, including jumping tournaments. I often watch exhibition skates because I like celebrating with the winners their win or as a good wind down after the excitement of the competition/closure when things didn't go as I hoped for. I can see that skaters deal with it and lol, they are far more impacted than I am. Sometimes, I am interested in what a skater would pick for an exhibition that they sincerely like, though I never see it from some skaters (still waiting on something convincingly 'so, good folks, this is actually me' from Kagiyama, for example). Shows offer none of those things.
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Me, too! Skate America, 2002! I had never seen anything like it.
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Judging from recent junior competitions, there is growth of sport in countries that previously didn't have a chance. Kazakhstan, Turkyie, Thailand, Switzerland, places like that. Naturally, a lot of it is due to talent elsewhere shopping for a federation that will allow them easier access to competition, but part of it is that media is easier to distribute around the world now. This localization of niche interest is pretty much in keeping with a general entertainment trend in our era of oversupply of entertainment and dissolution of the 100% entertainment capture by major networks/magazines/papers etc. In short, we watch what we want and people pursue what they want pretty much everywhere and from a very young age. Young enough to enter the sport before it's too late to compete with the coaches' kids. And, well, some moms might be thinking beyond gymnastics, ballet and hockey/baseball for their kids.
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My last two events in Canada were ACI and Worlds (other than Nationals)
Fans were cheering for everyone. Not just Canadian skaters. Of course, people are happy when Canadian skaters do well but they were still cheering loudly for Chock and Bates, R/R, Malinin etc
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Plus Korea is now seeing the blossoming of the inspiration Yuna Kim gave to children at the height of her popularity, just as those inspired by Mao (sure, she wasn't the sole megastar in Japan the way Yuna was in Korea but there are quite a few including Shimada who name her as inspiration).
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The superstar effect is real and I dont deny that. But you look at the people who still follow Yuna and she isnt going away. Now, we have all sorts of interesting and wonderful Korean skaters and of course Japanese skaters. I wonder what happened to all the Hanyufans? Anyway, for me, it never was about one or two or 10 skaters that America was producing, it was about the body of work of the US but more than that, it was about the body of work of skaters all around the world. That was the cool things about Champions on Ice, and any international comp. That was the draw. My first comp was SA Spokane 2002. And the COMP was way cool of course as I had never been to one...but before that, there was Champions on ice...where all the stars I had watched on a rabbit ears vaccum tube analogue TV came to life. In 2000 Champions on Ice, there were 33 champions and in them, many legends....
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I was very surprised at the effect it had on me. I had seen MK in shows of course but never go out and win a comp. There were lots of other cool skaters but for me, seeing and feeling the drama of a comp was an incredible experience . Many years later, I even got my pic with Gracie in "Skating Magazine" LOL!Me, too! Skate America, 2002! I had never seen anything like it.
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