Good for you, ISU

[Magill]

The superstar effect is real and I dont deny that. But you look at the people who still follow Yuna and she isnt going away. Now, we have all sorts of interesting and wonderful Korean skaters and of course Japanese skaters. I wonder what happened to all the Hanyufans?

What happened to Hanyufans? Still around and well, and busy watching his shows ...
Just two examples as no more can be linked (but they are many many more, believe me)!
Here's a young one in China...


... and a bit older one in Kazakhstan (it's also a video, make it run) , lol!


...

 

[TallyT]

I wonder what happened to all the Hanyufans?

That's been thrashed out in another thread: pretty much all of them are still Hanyu fans (so that he can attract audiences up to 19000-35000) even if if they dumped ISU skating. Some (like, well, me) are still interested in the latter. Plus Yuzuru is inspiring the new skaters - all of the GPF finalists last year, and the gold/silver men at Worlds, have acknowledged that and a new generation of small boys in Japan and China is looking up to him (acclaimed film director Hiroshi Okuyama's research credits Yuzu with inspiring more and more boys to want to become figure skaters so that the number is rising to near equality with girls which is rare.)

Anyway, for me, it never was about one or two or 10 skaters that America was producing, it was about the body of work of the US but more than that, it was about the body of work of skaters all around the world.

That touches on something I have mentioned before, so indulge me folks: the stars are important but for the most part not more so than the whole group of elite slaters including those who will compete but never win international bling or be invited to shows or exhibitions or such. Stars - at least while in competition - cannot be stars without all those people to compete against.

 

[Anna K.]

The all-time great show program.

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The 2025 competitive version performed by Ilya Nesterov (EST), 14.y.o.

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The difference that stroke me was not the skill level - if one is a champion and the other is a junior in the process of learning, the difference in skill level is absolutely normal and expected. Rather, I noticed that Ilya Nesterov did a fine job as a learning junior supposedly inspired by the greats form the past, be it Kurt Browning or Gene Kelly. He showed steps, he showed hands, he showed charm and charisma, and it certainly looked like he enjoyed being an entertainer. Congratulations, Estonia, there is a lot to expect in the future!
Neither I missed the scenery of a TV show or props. Each environment has different storytelling tools. I'm fine with an imaginary umbrella as long as it tells a story.
However, the part that was bitterly missing in the 2025 version was the story itself. The story of a young man enjoying himself while fooling around on a street in the rain was absent. The transformation into this character was absent. And it's not Ilya's fault that his choreography wasn't built to show it. Simply... the times have changed

 

[Mathman]

The 2025 competitive version performed by Ilya Nesterov (EST), 14.y.o.

However, the part that was bitterly missing in the 2025 version was the story itself. The story of a young man enjoying himself while fooling around on a street in the rain was absent. The transformation into this character was absent.

Oh, I absolutely have to disagree with this criticism. What a delightful and charming performance. That was a young man fooling around dancing and singing if I ever saw one!

For me, what set Kurt Browning's performance apart was the absolute fidelity to Gene Kelly's iconic masterpiece, both in spirit and in the attention to the smallest detail.

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[Anna K.]

For me, what set Kurt Browning's performance apart was the absolute fidelity to Gene Kelly's iconic masterpiece, both in spirit and in the attention to the smallest detail.

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All right, and what set Gene Kelly's performance apart so much that mere being his copy in details set Kurt Browning's performance apart in your eyes?

Oh, I absolutely have to disagree with this criticism. What a delightful and charming performance.

Now, I'm angry. Why did you edit my words "he showed charm and charisma" out when you quoted me?

That's the very point of my post. I see a young man who is giving a charming performance but I don't see the character who lives an episode in character's life.

That was a young man fooling around dancing and singing if I ever saw one!

That's interesting. Could it be that I am missing something?
Tell me more about the young man that you see. Why is he fooling around dancing and singing?

 

[Mathman]

All right, and what set Gene Kelly's performance apart so much that mere being his copy in details set Kurt Browning's performance apart in your eyes?

Well, this movie has won all sorts of prizes for being one of the best movies ever made, plus Gene Kelly is generally regarded as the best song and dance man (along with Fred Astaire) in the history of Hollywood); but my comment was about Browning's recapturing the magic on ice. Just like, I appreciate a stage performance of Hamlet that captures, in so far as possible, the nuances that Shakespeare provided with his magic pen more so than, for instance, an interpretation of the plot in modern language.

Now, I'm angry. Why did you edit my words "he showed charm and charisma" out when you quoted me?

That's the very point of my post. I see a young man who is giving a charming performance but I don't see the character who lives an episode in character's life.

Sorry. I only quoted the part that I was specifically responding to.

Yes, the young skater showed charm and charisma -- just like Gene Kelly did in that role. In fact, more. Didn't you just feel like grabbing this youngster and giving him a big happy hug?

As for an episode in the character's life, well, no, I don't see that he is happy because he had just finagled a way to get his new girl friend to dub in the voice for his silent film partner who had a terrible voice. Neither would I guess that from Gene Kelly's original performance of the number, standing alone.

In all three performances I did see a ahappy guy dancing out his happiness with happy feet. I don't think that the back story of the challenges of silent movie actors forced to adjust to "talkies" -- I don't think that this consideration plays a role in evaluating -- and enjoying -- any of the three performances.

 

[Anna K.]

Well, this movie has won all sorts of prizes for being one of the best movies ever made, plus Gene Kelly is generally regarded as the best song and dance man (along with Fred Astaire) in the history of Hollywood); but my comment was about Browning's recapturing the magic on ice. Just like, I appreciate a stage performance of Hamlet that captures, in so far as possible, the nuances that Shakespeare provided with his magic pen more so than, for instance, an interpretation of the plot in modern language.

Prizes, accolades, reputation... Words, words, words!
What if you tell me what touched your heart?

Why do you remember this old movie scene while you have forgotten dozens of others that, by the way, also had prizes, accolades, reputation...?

 

[Mathman]

Prizes, accolades, reputation... Words, words, words!
What if you tell me what touched your heart?

Why do you remember this old movie scene while you have forgotten dozens of others that, by the way, also had prizes, accolades, reputation...?

Me personally? I don't think that I have ever seen the movie. I have seen short clips of this particular dance routine by Gene Kelly and I thought it was pretty cool. When Kurt Browning did his version, I also thought it was pretty cool. So cool that I took the time to compare them and was struck by how closely Kurt followed Kelly's choreography and mannerisms. I never really knew what the movie was about until a half hour ago when I looked it up.

That kind of story-telling as a part of a figure skating performance does not interest me very much. (I was never especially moved by Anna Karenina getting run over by a train or by Juliet stabbing herself on ice.)

But the spirit of joie de vivre that came through in all three of the performances under discussion, that's what I value most, although aI also appreciate Kurt's faithful portrayal both of Gene Kelly's dancing style and of the personality of Kelly's character at that moment of the movie.

 

[Anna K.]

But the spirit of joie de vivre that came through in all three of the performances under discussion, that's what I value most, although aI lso appreciate Kurt's faithful portrayal both of Gene Kelly's dancing style and of the personality of Kelly's character at that moment of the movie.

All right, I accept that.
But now, we have a problem. How can we explain this to a 14.y.o. who may possibly read this thread: if he is equally good as Gene Kelly, then why prizes, accolades and reputation do not pour over him like they did over Gene and the only thing that he has gained with his performance is a bunch of crazy oldies who now want to paw him (I'm sorry, but I remember my 14 years - if some oldie would then tell me: "you are so charming, I fell like grabbing you and giving you a big happy hug", my reaction would definitely have been: "yikes, keep your paws off me!")?

 

[Mathman]

All right, I accept that.
But now, we have a problem. How can we explain this to a 14.y.o. who may possibly read this thread: if he is equally good as Gene Kelly, then why prizes, accolades and reputation do not pour over him like they did over Gene...

I think it would be up to his coach to explain this. The only answer that I could give would be that he is not as accomplished a dancer as Gene Kelly was, although kudos for presenting a whiz-bang entertaining skating performance. I hope this wouldn't hurt his feelings.

 

[4everchan]

I am so confused by this thread at this point... and well, wasn't it to be the shortest ever thread ? LOL

 

[lariko]

It sure went places. I mean, I start to think that in FS, Hanyu mention is like 'Godwin's Law' elsewhere on internet. Means any kind of meaningful discussion is done. Lol.

 

[Mathman]

Here's the thing. When I started a thread on the topic, "Say Something Nice About the ISU" I figured, "Well, this will be the shortest thread in figure skating history." In any organization and in every field of endeavor, nobody likes the guys in charge and everyone thinks, what we need to do is get rid of those morons and put ME in charge.

Eventually the thread meandered into a more interesting topic. namely the role of story-telling in a figure skating performance. Hanyu was brought up in connection with the song "Danny Boy" and the point was made that he presented a very moving program on the general theme of sadness and grief, but did not tell a story about a grandfather sending his grandson off to war.

The last few posts stretched this into a comparison of three versions of "Singing in the Rain." @AnnaK asks, WHY is the dancer/skater happy? The point that I was trying to make, however clumsily, was that there is nothing in the performances themselves that can give a clue to that question, nor should we want or expect one.

Watching the Gene Kelly original in isolation a viewer would never guess in a million years that the performer is happy because he had made a successful transition from silent movies to talkies -- as opposed, say, to being happy because he just bought a new sports car.

Kurt Browning tells us in an interview that the reason he was happy is that people were comparing his work to Kelly's by saying things like "If Browning were a dancer he would dance like Gene Kelly and if Gene Kelly skated he would skate like Kurt Browning (a claim that was refuted when Kelly had a brief roller skating part in the movie Xanadu. )

What about the music itself? It had been composed decades earlier for a completely different purpose. (The lyracist was celebrating his own love life and it was first sung in a 1929 Broadway Review. Just this year (2025) the song entered the public domain, so from now on skaters can use the music without facing copyright issues. . The singer, Doris Eaton Travis, passed away in 2010 at the age of 106 -- the last of the Ziegfeld Follies girls.

 

[Magill]

Here's the thing. When I started a thread on the topic, "Say Something Nice About the ISU" I figured, "Well, this will be the shortest thread in figure skating history." In any organization and in every field of endeavor, nobody likes the guys in charge and everyone thinks, what we need to do is get rid of those morons and put ME in charge.

Eventually the thread meandered into a more interesting topic. namely the role of story-telling in a figure skating performance. Hanyu was brought up in connection with the song "Danny Boy" and the point was made that he presented a very moving program pn the general theme of sadness and grief, but did not tell a story about a grandfather sending his grandson off to war.

The last few posts stretched this into a comparison of three versions of "Singing in the Rain." @AnnaK asks, WHY is the dancer/skater happy? The point that I was trying to make, however clumsily, was that there is nothing in the performances themselves that can give a clue to that question, nor should we want or expect one.

Watching the Gene Kelly original in isolation a viewer would never guess in a million years that the performer is happy because he had made a successful transition from silent movies to talkies -- as opposed, say, to being happy because he just bought a new sports car.

Kurt Browning tells us in an interview that the reason he was happy is that people were comparing his work to Kelly's by saying things like "If Browning were a dancer he would dance like Gene Kelly and if Gene Kelly skated he would skate like Kurt Browning (a claim that was refuted when Kelly had a brief roller skating part in the movie Xanadu. )

What about the music itself? It had been composed decades earlier for a completely different purpose. (The lyracist was celebrating his own love life and it was first sung in a 1929 Broadway Review. Just this year (2025) the song entered the public domain, so from now on skaters can use the music without facing copyright issues. . The singer, Doris Eaton Travis, passed away in 2010 at the age of 106 -- the last of the Ziegfeld Follies girls.

Appreciated. Thank you

 

[Anna K.]

Here's the thing. When I started a thread on the topic [...]

Since you invested significant amount of time in writing the super long explanation&recap that follows, I got an impression that you don't want this topic to end yet

So...

What about the music itself? It had been composed decades earlier for a completely different purpose. (The lyracist was celebrating his own love life and it was first sung in a 1929 Broadway Review. Just this year (2025) the song entered the public domain, so from now on skaters can use the music without facing copyright issues. . The singer, Doris Eaton Travis, passed away in 2010 at the age of 106 -- the last of the Ziegfeld Follies girls.

Doris Eaton Travis apparently wasn't the lead singer but I absolutely loved the romantic female version inserted in the middle of the song. Given that the song is officially clear now and we will apparently see it more often in competitions, I already start wishing for somebody picking the old 1929 version. It would allow a different vintage dance routine and it has the most-coveted rhythm change in it:

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[PaulE]

With respect to the movie "Singing in the Rain" I believe the story was created to fit a number of songs written by Arthur Freed who suggested the movie and its title. Arthur Freed had become head of the MGM musical division after starting out as a song writer.
See the following links for more backstory:

The History Behind the Songs of Singin’ in the Rain

Arguably the greatest movie musical of all time, Singin’ in the Rain, in its sixty-sixth year of existence, continues to prove that a Technicolor musical comedy all about the transition from …

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and
https://www.debisimons.com/was-the-...r-the-movie-singin-in-the-rain-or-vice-versa/

 

[TontoK]

I am so confused by this thread at this point... and well, wasn't it to be the shortest ever thread ? LOL

One of my favorite parts of the forum is that we sometimes go off on tangents... and so long as the main topic of the thread has been pretty much exhausted, the mods let it happen rather than police us too hard.

Some really interesting discussions and good-natured arguments appear on the back half of threads that, at first glance, seem unrelated.

Case in point: "The ISU does a good job" morphs into critiques of programs inspired by Gene Kelly... which sprang from a side-discussion of something else entirely. And it's an AWESOME thread.

So, like the ISU, our mods do a pretty good job, too! Thanks for keeping things tight at the beginning and then letting the inmates run the asylum.

And late breaking: "The history of the MGM Musical" enters the chat! I love love love it!

 

[Anna K.]

For me, this thread felt rather stretchable right from the start because everything that happens on ice can be good for ISU... or, not
And the thread lived up with the promise

Once the history of the MGM musical has entered this thread...

Me personally? I don't think that I have ever seen the movie. I have seen short clips of this particular dance routine by Gene Kelly

What can I say? I was the same for the most part of my life. I mean, I fully got the message about the resolved love life issues as it was delivered by the stand-alone dance number (well, this song has lyrics) and I never felt interested in watching the full movie to find out what these issues had been.

It was only after the modern-day silent movie The Artist (2011) came out when I started feeling that my life wasn't complete without watching the original 1954 musical film. Both movies have the same theme, the transition from the silent film to the sound film, and there are many references to the earlier film in The Artist.

By the way, these references, both musical and story-wise, are nicely represented in Stefania Jakovleva's wonderful The Artist free skate:

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Both movies have the same theme and a similar character layout. The AI overview insists that The Artist is a drama with a sad ending while Singin' In The Rain is a comedy with a happy ending but this is not exactly correct. Both movies have a share of drama as well as of comedy and the endings are basically the same: the movie ends with a dance number that introduces dance as a bridge transferring the artistic expression. What makes these movies feel radically different though are their opposite cultural statements.

Regarding the cultural statements of the earlier film, there is this article which is officially published by the Salisbury University (I hope that adding the link is legit then ), "It's Raining Films: Intertextuality in Singin' In The Rain"
The article explores the references to earlier MGM musicals that are present in the 1954 film and also explains it's then-vision of the future: the silent film comes to an end with the harmonious sounds of the musical, its successor.
I'll add that this creates a stark contrast with the message of The Artist, a film which looks back at the extinct artistic language of the silent film with nostalgia and love. And, even though the Salisbury article does not mention The Artist, there is a quote that can well be attributed to it as well as the earlier film:
The linguistic-intertextual crossroad creates a discussion about the very essence of the cinematic medium; while both the silent film and the musical use wisely the tools at their disposal, the all talking movie, which tries to reach complete realism, eventually becomes a cinematic parody. In other words, while the silent film and the musical did not try to eliminate the artificiality of the cinematic representation, the all talking movie’s goal - to reach absolute mimetic - is doomed to fail because the film’s mechanism is an all-present system. The cinematic medium is built upon mechanic manipulations and, therefore, any attempt at complete realism is impossible.

The Artist came out in 2011; this was the era when the entertainment was flooded with live reality shows to describe which "absolute mimetic' is an understatement - and the new silent film massively benefited from the public fatigue of hyper-realistic entertainment. It's vision of artistic language as something different from everyday realia was received with applause and led to a rain of prizes, accolades, and reputation...

What's interesting: the figure skating is also built upon mechanic manipulations, the manipulations between the ice and the blade. Hence absolute mimetic is doomed to fail in figure skating as well. But somehow figure skating has failed to find its feet (pun intended) in creating a successful artistic language that would attract the interest of both academicians and the general public like The Artist's silent language did.
But the opportunities are still there. So, if there were artists who could explore them... It would truly be good for ISU

 

[Mathman]

OK, now I am overwhelmed. Give me a week to digest all this.

 

[Mathman]

Regarding The Artist, what was cool about the story line was that the audience -- at least the English-speaking audience -- never knew WHY the protagonist couldn't make the transition from silent films to Hollywood talkies until the last scene. He was French and could not speak English well. In authentic "life follows art follows ife" fashion, the actor (Jean Dujardin) also is not fluent in English and he never tried to have a career as a Hollywood leading man for this reason. (This did not stop him from winning the Academy Award for best actor for the Artist, however.)

So, does this have anything to do with figure skating? YES. The glamorous Sonja Henie, after retirement from competition, went to Hollywood and made millions starring in movies featuring winter sports themes (she was also a good skier). But she could not be cast in mainstream leading lady roles for American audiences because her Norwegian accent was too prominent.

Here is a youthful Kaori Sakamoto's interpretation of music from The Artist soundtrack at the 2017 World Junior Championships. ,

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