Do online fandoms weaponize skating tech analysis?

[Anna K.]

Figure skating tech analysis can be a great tool which helps to explain and promote the sport.

Not so if it gets involved into fandom wars where it is used to disrepute one skater in favor of another, often taking out of context or blatantly forging the "evidence".

Do you think it is a problem?
Not that much in the context of communication ethics (this aspect can be controlled in administrated forums like our one) but in the context of figure skating content published on social media and other platforms?

 

[TallyT]

Yes.

And this is unique to fs rather than par for the course, common in pretty much every sport... how?

 

[Skating91]

Figure skating tech analysis can be a great tool which helps to explain and promote the sport.

Not so if it gets involved into fandom wars where it is used to disrepute one skater in favor of another, often taking out of context or blatantly forging the "evidence".

Do you think it is a problem?
Not that much in the context of communication ethics (this aspect can be controlled in administrated forums like our one) but in the context of figure skating content that it published on social media and other platforms?

The only tech analysis I will get into are posting screenshots or super slow motion videos of jump landings because that is indisputable evidence, although people will still try to argue a landing is not an under rotation when the blade and body is facing the wrong direction...

I try not to get into debates about presentation, composition, skating skills, transitions, step sequences because there's an element of voodoo to how this is assessed based on seniority, persona, position in the queue, federation, flag, backroom dealing, marketing objectives, but I don't let it bother me too much because I understand it is part of the ISU's sports entertainment model they adopted several seasons ago. The transition to the sports entertainment model will only accelerate as we transition to no jump short programs and 4 jump free skate programs.

 

[ChiGal]

he only tech analysis I will get into are posting screenshots or super slow motion videos of jump landings because that is indisputable evidence, although people will still try to argue a landing is not an under rotation when the blade and body is facing the wrong direction...

The only "indisputable" evidence what the judges see, not someone's slo-mo screenshots from a phone, and then posted over-and-over-and-over again (and usually of skaters from certain countries) as if its going to change the result! What the ISU needs to do ASAP is to allow more than one camera on the ice. Skaters have become adept to placing jumps as far away from the ice cameras as possible. If Johnny and Tara can get different views of jump shots up within minutes during a live broadcast, then surely its very doable. Then persons who like to post amateur pics of skaters they do not like as evidence of favoritism will end.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Figure skating tech analysis can be a great tool which helps to explain and promote the sport.

Not so if it gets involved into fandom wars where it is used to disrepute one skater in favor of another, often taking out of context or blatantly forging the "evidence".

Do you think it is a problem?
Not that much in the context of communication ethics (this aspect can be controlled in administrated forums like our one) but in the context of figure skating content that it published on social media and other platforms?

Do you have an example in mind? Because, I have a skater in mind, who at the Four Continent Championships and now at the World Championships, is reported to have received much hate on social media, but I haven't seen the incriminated posts, so I don't know exactly their content. What's factual is that this skater had to block private messages on his account(s) after the Four Continents Championships.

Yes.

And this is unique to fs rather than par for the course, common in pretty much every sport... how?

I don't follow (closely) any other competitive sports, but for instance the reputation of Soccer is that many fans "redo" referring? Weren't there controversies in Gymnastics, in Half-Pipe...? I suppose that it happens in a number of other sports? Of course, for instance in Track & Field sports, the result is much less deabatable.

A big, big problem in Figure Skating is that such a lot of the score depends on the accuracy of the Technical Panel and the Judges, and it's impossible for anyone to question a score unless there's some proof of a bribery. For ISU members adherent, it's even forbidden to question it informally! Yet I'm sure that outright bribery is rare, and scoring can be very inconsistent between skaters. But there's nothing to fix even a score grossly inaccurate, which is NOT a rare event. That's on ISU. Should ISU have reliable scoring (if needed on appeal), and ways to appeal, including by the general public, no proof forger would be believed. (This being said, I have no idea of the number of people who believe forgeries.)

 

[Skating91]

The only "indisputable" evidence what the judges see, not someone's slo-mo screenshots from a phone, and then posted over-and-over-and-over again (and usually of skaters from certain countries) as if its going to change the result! What the ISU needs to do ASAP is to allow more than one camera on the ice. Skaters have become adept to placing jumps as far away from the ice cameras as possible. If Johnny and Tara can get different views of jump shots up within minutes during a live broadcast, then surely its very doable. Then persons who like to post amateur pics of skaters they do not like as evidence of favoritism will end.

The ISU are in the sports entertainment business so just have one camera so there's plausible explanation for when they miss the wrong edge on a lutz for someone who has done it every time for decade, or give a measly q for an obvious underrotation. No serious sport or governing body would tolerate this kind of officiating, so it's obviously by design.

Having the one camera it would be like having a linesperson in tennis just on the one side of the court, football, baseball or with VAR imagine they don't have multiple cameras, don't have access to the broadcast feed, just a solitary camera on the sidelines on a tripod. It's like in professional wrestling they sneak into the ring a foreign object to knock the other guy out, the cameras commentators crowd see it except the ref so the wrestler gets away with it.

That's how ridiculous the ISU is with this one camera policy, oops the ref couldn't see it.

If it were 1980 you would understand just the one camera, but people set up cameras to talk to their dog while they're at work. You just have to laugh I guess.

 

[Mathman]

Do you think it is a problem?

I don't think so. Sports fans, like non-sports fans, are going to b*tch and kvetch about everything under the sun, no matter what.

 

[frompolandwithlove]

I would say it's just a consequence of inconsistent judging. And I wouldn't say it's really a problem - unless it reaches the skaters of course in one way or another (like direct hate because someone got away with underrotation etc.). But yeah, if judging system allows for subjectivity, depends so much on camera angle or judges (or tech panel) analyze closely some elements but not the others, then of course fans won't trust their judgement and will start to analyze by themselves. Especially when commentators are quick to disagree with scores and calls as well. Sure, sometimes those slow motion clips and intense discussions are annoying, but "fan" comes from "fanatic" after all . Annoying doesn't necessarily mean problematic.

 

[4everchan]

I follow many other judged sports and there is a rare occurence here or there when fans complain about the judging... but in figure skating it's systemic and it's bad.

However, I think having access to scores and scrutinize them is better than be left in the dark and not knowing what's going on.

Since the Shawn Restatt incident (tech panel ridiculing elite skaters with level 1s on about everything and top teams complaining about it) we have had better TPs in ice dance for all the major events of the season (GPF/OLYMPICS, Euros and now... up to now... Worlds)

 

[Anna K.]

I don't think so. Sports fans, like non-sports fans, are going to b*tch and kvetch about everything under the sun, no matter what.

When it comes to human affairs, nothing under the sun is permanent and forever. Whatever it is, it either gets better or grows worse.

Never hurts asking to find out where we currently stand

 

[el henry]

Fans complained about judging in the 70s, 80s, 90s etc just as much as they do now. You think there is bias now? These judges look like Solomon compared to “back in the day”.

We know more now, so we have more to complain about. I do believe we have more to pick apart in the scores and the protocols and the details, so we can use more to support our favs or discredit those we see as their rivals.

Screenshots are a great way to argue for one’s own preconceived notions. I have yet to see one person, here or otherwise, go “oh my god a high def still of a landing, takeoff or close-up of a skate, I change my mind, Suzy Skater was shafted!”

But maybe it has happened

 

[Mathman]

Screenshots are a great way to argue for one’s own preconceived notions. I have yet to see one person, here or otherwise, go “oh my god a high def still of a landing, takeoff or close-up of a skate, I change my mind, Suzy Skater was shafted!”

That is so true. Not only that, but if two fans study exactly the same screen shot with exactly the same protractor and compass lines superimposed, one will say that it was CLEARLY under-rotation by at least 135 degrees and the other will say that it was CLEARLY a satisfactorily rotated jump.

It makes me wonder what the word "clearly" is intended to mean. (Other than an attempt at "proof by intimidation -- the emperor CLEARLY has his trousers on and you're an idiot if you can't see them. )

 

[SmileHappy34]

1. Who do u call a fan.
It could be another skater, judge, tech caller, sponsor.
So this question could be inappropriate to them . They would know the rules and the reasons for calls.

2.what do u mean by weaponize.
Call out unfair ur or uncalled for your favorite team or skater?

3. The talk on forum

4. I take most people on this forum is associated with thr sport in some way that understands the calls, jumps

5. People's emotions get in way of da t then people try to back of those emotions with hoe understands judging tech calling.

I am not sure i personally understand what u mean.

 

[Mathman]

I am not sure i personally understand what u mean.

I think that the intent of the question is this. Enthusiastic fans "go to war" with other fans using analysis of protocols and screen captures as their "weapons" to beat up on the other guys. Is this OK, or is it harmful to the sport?

My own personal opinion is that this sort of thing is inevitable. That's what "fan" means. You are ready to go to war to prove that your favorite skater wuzrobbed, or that the judges are a bunch of incompetent crooks, or whatever.

The only thing that rubs me the wrong way is that some "fans" are so fanny that they travel around the internet with a chip on their shoulder just trying to provoke a fight. To them, I say, "Peace, Bro."

 

[DancingCactus]

It's ok to argue judging, but bringing out the contextless screenshots really does nothing to help. I always look at them, go "hmmm" and then off to the next post.

Also, it might be just my impression, but it seems to me most of the fudging doesn't come from calling qs or URs, but from PCS and GOEs.

 

[SmileHappy34]

Thank you Mathman for your opinion.
I got that.
What i meant is I wonder the reason of title.
Is it to antagonize or bring about debate.
I respect their decision
Mathman unlike you.
I don't go to "war" to prove a point.
I respect their decision.
According to title. In your statement you
" go to war to prove a point".

 

[Mathman]

According to title. In your statement you
" go to war to prove a point".

Me? Oh goodness no. I'm a lover, not a fighter.

 

[Mathman]

Also, it might be just my impression, but it seems to me most of the fudging doesn't come from calling qs or URs, but from PCS and GOEs.

About GOEs and PCSs, I think that this is what puts the judging in "it's a judged sport." I think that there is still a holdover from pre-IJS days regarding the "second mark." This is what makes figure skating problematic -- and glorious. On the "problematic" side, the idea that it is the judges' responsibility to give a holistic evaluation of the merit of the program taken in its entirety -- this invites reputation judging and home-court advantage.

On the "glorious" side... In most versions of the IJS, under the Performance category, one of the bullet points was something like "Makes an invisible connection between the performer and the audience."

Wait a minute. What kind of a "sport" is it if the winner is decided by something invisible? On the other hand, YES, that "invisible connection between performer and audience is the very heart and soul of performance. This is true whether you are a stand-up comedian or a concert violinist.

So, if this is invisible, who decides? Um... judges do. That's they are called judges and not stop watches and measuring sticks. (Actually, I would be very intrigued to see whether Artificial Intelligence could come up with a program to evaluate a comedian's performance by measuring how funny the jokes were on a scale from 1 to 10 -- I think this would be quite a challenge.)

 

[Anna K.]

It makes me wonder what the word "clearly" is intended to mean. (Other than an attempt at "proof by intimidation -- the emperor CLEARLY has his trousers on and you're an idiot if you can't see them. )

Well, in soccerverse (it differs from country to country but still) it's intended to go like this:
[Emperor tone]: CLEARLY, it was offside.
[Counter-emperor tone]: CLEARLY you are an idiot! It was not offside.
Everybody else: Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!
Then they fight and everybody's happy - until the fighting occurs in real life and somebody gets murdered. Not that the mainstream citizens care a lot about a loss of a random soccer fan but street violence mostly includes the damage of property. Which is not acceptable.

Then in figure skating, we have a bit of an old ladies club (always happy to join in myself) where we say "possibly..." and "maybe..." while the "you are an idiot" part is something that we think but not say. Somebody CLEARLY pushing on something feels awkward indeed. But it could be but a side effect of a fan of another sport entering the conversation.

In this context, I have a top cringe moment from my Latvian experience.
Once upon a time in Latvia, a leading ballroom dancer, also a TV presenter, decided to improve the visibility of his sport. So he said on TV: "Hey, so you are always in for ice hockey but did you know that Latvian dancers are about to defend their WC title in ballroom dancing right here in Riga this weekend? You could actually come and support them." Some ice hockey fans took his words to their hearts and arrived for support. With drums and pipes.

Happy birthday by the way! the conversation.

 

[Anna K.]

We know more now, so we have more to complain about.

So, did you mean "the less we know, the less we complain"? I bet you didn't

Complaining is not about information. It's about attitude. "Complainers will complain" just like "haters will hate". We can't change that.

However, people choose sports and entertainments that compliment their attitudes. Is figure skating as a sport attractive for complainers? What makes it attractive for complainers? Or, for the "h" word people? Because this can change. Better policies can lead to better fandoms.
Actually, the soccerverse has some positive examples of that. In England, by simple policy change from lenient "boys will be boys" to "bad boys go to prison", soccer got transformed from "a hooligan sport" to a family friendly sport in less than a decade.

The OT question of this thread doesn't go as far as that; it's just asking "Do you think it is a problem?" - well, no change is needed if there is no problem. I personally am not yet convinced about "yes" or "no". That's why I'm asking