Shaidorov says he lost his salary after "speaking out"

[ladyjane]

So, elite sport is already about wealth in most cases.

I have to agree. For example in our country the long track speed skaters get a salary from their sponsors (the discipline is popular, competitions always get big audiences. Audiences that support everyone by the way, not just our own Dutchies). These sponsors also pay coaches and the rest of the team (although if the team in question has only one skater, this may require some more). The short track speed skaters get a so-called minimum income from the Skating Federation. Only the ones in the National team.

But figure skating? There is an association that helps and also funds a little. Not the federation as figure skating is not a 'medal sport' (the medals at WC's and the OG only go to speed skaters). But figure skaters usually fund their sport by coaching on the side, using student stipends for other objectives than studying, having day jobs, etc. One lady even went from door-to-door to collect bottles for which she would get money via an existing deposit system. The federation is not for figure skaters really. Even though all figure skaters, not just the high level ones, still pay a fee for being a part of the federation! In effect, we pay for the short track speed skaters....

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

I have to agree. For example in our country the long track speed skaters get a salary from their sponsors (the discipline is popular, competitions always get big audiences. Audiences that support everyone by the way, not just our own Dutchies). These sponsors also pay coaches and the rest of the team (although if the team in question has only one skater, this may require some more). The short track speed skaters get a so-called minimum income from the Skating Federation. Only the ones in the National team.

But figure skating? There is an association that helps and also funds a little. Not the federation as figure skating is not a 'medal sport' (the medals at WC's and the OG only go to speed skaters). But figure skaters usually fund their sport by coaching on the side, using student stipends for other objectives than studying, having day jobs, etc. One lady even went from door-to-door to collect bottles for which she would get money via an existing deposit system. The federation is not for figure skaters really. Even though all figure skaters, not just the high level ones, still pay a fee for being a part of the federation! In effect, we pay for the short track speed skaters....

In Japan it used to be this, from official yearly accounts: Figure Skating would make 70% of their income, while Speed Skating as a whole was making 30%; but the expense were going 70% to Speed Skating and 30% for Figure Skating (including paying a part time intern to denigrate Yuzuru Hanyu online, I'm not joking they did post a job offer). When Yuzuru Hanyu left competition and giving 10% of his income to JSF and filling venues, they had to send back the very highly paid... Dutch Speed Skating coach. I don't know the present proportion in income and expenses, but in my opinion (I'm not alone) this unfair treatment of Figure Skating (the general claim is that 30% was way too low, not that 70% of resources had to be allocated to Figure Skating) was the main reason why Japan didn't have World-level Pairs and Ice Dance teams for long, because the Federation during long, wouldn't fund the costs of a school.
This being said, JSF own resources are only a part of what's allocated by JSF overall, as a number of sponsors directly fund some skaters on JSF's advice, which of course doesn't appear in their accounts. I have no idea of the dispatching of these resources between Figure Skating and Speed Skating.

 

[4everchan]

In Japan it used to be this, from official yearly accounts: Figure Skating would make 70% of their income, while Speed Skating as a whole was making 30%; but the expense were going 70% to Speed Skating and 30% for Figure Skating (including paying a part time intern to denigrate Yuzuru Hanyu online, I'm not joking they did post a job offer). When Yuzuru Hanyu left competition and giving 10% of his income to JSF and filling venues, they had to send back the very highly paid... Dutch Speed Skating coach. I don't know the present proportion in income and expenses, but in my opinion (I'm not alone) this unfair treatment of Figure Skating (the general claim is that 30% was way too low, not that 70% of resources had to be allocated to Figure Skating) was the main reason why Japan didn't have World-level Pairs and Ice Dance teams for long, because the Federation during long, wouldn't fund the costs of a school.
This being said, JSF own resources are only a part of what's allocated by JSF overall, as a number of sponsors directly fund some skaters on JSF's advice, which of course doesn't appear in their accounts. I have no idea of the dispatching of these resources between Figure Skating and Speed Skating.

I'd love to see quotes/proofs for what you are saying up there.

I would not be surprised that Japan is funding Speed skating more though... So, for all these years before the first medals, speed skating was the best sport for Japan , and would get the most funding.

Here is the tally of the Japanese winter olympic medals... and keep in mind that the first medals for figure skaters are very recent.
(gold, silver, bronze, total)

Speed skating 5 10 14 29

Snowboarding. 5 5 6 16

Figure skating. 4 8 5 17

Ski jumping 4 7 7 18

Nordic combined 2 3 2 7

Freestyle skiing 1 1 5 7

Short track 1 0 2 3

Curling 0 1 1 2

Alpine skiing 0 1 0 1

Totals 22 36 42 100

As a matter of fact, in the last three games, Japan still won 6, 5 and 3 medals in speed skating. Milan and Torino are most likely (as far as I recall) the only times ever that Japanese figure skaters won more medals than speed skaters. (Sochi, was equal in total of medals)

So good for Japanese figure skaters in Italy... and well too bad for the speed skaters in the same country

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

I'd love to see quotes/proofs for what you are saying up there.

I would not be surprised that Japan is funding Speed skating more though... So, for all these years before the first medals, speed skating was the best sport for Japan , and would get the most funding.

Here is the tally of the Japanese winter olympic medals... and keep in mind that the first medals for figure skaters are very recent.
(gold, silver, bronze, total)

Speed skating 5 10 14 29

Snowboarding. 5 5 6 16

Figure skating. 4 8 5 17

Ski jumping 4 7 7 18

Nordic combined 2 3 2 7

Freestyle skiing 1 1 5 7

Short track 1 0 2 3

Curling 0 1 1 2

Alpine skiing 0 1 0 1

Totals 22 36 42 100

As a matter of fact, in the last three games, Japan still won 6, 5 and 3 medals in speed skating. Milan and Torino are most likely (as far as I recall) the only times ever that Japanese figure skaters won more medals than speed skaters. (Sochi, was equal in total of medals)

So good for Japanese figure skaters in Italy... and well too bad for the speed skaters in the same country

I have seen official receipts, for instance, the classified for the recruitment of that intern was unverifiable for me, but JSF's official statement after it was revealed, saying that they had deleted the job offer in the classified media, was quite clear. What happened afterwards is just my suspicion of course (I didn't write it but you can guess it).

Regarding the funding dispatch, it was from one official JSF yearly account a few years ago, of course a year-by-year graph would be even better.

On your reasoning... What would it have been with more equal funding and less shenanigans in Figure Skating?

 

[4everchan]

On your reasoning... What would it have been with more equal funding and less shenanigans in Figure Skating?

Well.. unless I see the reports, I cannot pronounce myself on this... but let's say that the funding went the way you say it went : since 1992, Japan's first figure skating medal (Midori Ito) Japan has done extremely well in figure skating. 6 medals these games alone is quite impressive. More funding doesn't necessarily mean more medals. Also, as many have mentioned, the Japanese figure skaters are popular in Japan and get sponsors. So perhaps the fed is smart not using money where they don't need to use it because big corporations are doing their share.

So, yeah.. hypothetical question gets at best, an hypothetical answer.

 

[Mathman]

To me, the whole topic of public funding for the training of elite athletes is quite curious. What does the general public get out of someone running the hundred meter dash in 10 seconds instead of 11?

Back in the days of the Cold War the answer was straightforward. If the American athlete won, that proved that Capitalism was a superior economic-political system to Communism, and vice versa if the Soviet champion won.

A little more recently, a decade ago Michael Phelps won a bunch of swimming races. Am I expected to feel a surge of pride because I was born in the same country as Michael Phelps? I didn't win any swimming races -- what do I have to be proud of?

On the other hand, I do think that it is very much in the interest of society at large to provide robust opportunities to children for have access to recreational and sport activities. Everybody benefits, even citizens who do not have children themselves.

 

[4everchan]

To me, the whole topic of public funding for the training of elite athletes is quite curious. What does the general public get out of someone running the hundred meter dash in 10 seconds instead of 11?

Back in the days of the Cold War the answer was straightforward. If the American athlete won, that proved that Capitalism was a superior economic-political system to Communism, and vice versa if the Soviet champion won.

A little more recently, a decade ago Michael Phelps won a bunch of swimming races. Am I expected to feel a surge of pride because I was born in the same country as Michael Phelps? I didn't win any swimming races -- what do I have to be proud of?

On the other hand, I do think that it is very much in the interest of society at large to provide robust opportunities to children for have access to recreational and sport activities. Everybody benefits, even citizens who do not have children themselves.

Maybe it still matters for some countries...or some presidents

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

To me, the whole topic of public funding for the training of elite athletes is quite curious. What does the general public get out of someone running the hundred meter dash in 10 seconds instead of 11?

Back in the days of the Cold War the answer was straightforward. If the American athlete won, that proved that Capitalism was a superior economic-political system to Communism, and vice versa if the Soviet champion won.

A little more recently, a decade ago Michael Phelps won a bunch of swimming races. Am I expected to feel a surge of pride because I was born in the same country as Michael Phelps? I didn't win any swimming races -- what do I have to be proud of?

On the other hand, I do think that it is very much in the interest of society at large to provide robust opportunities to children for have access to recreational and sport activities. Everybody benefits, even citizens who do not have children themselves.

In France, Gymnastics spread widely at the end of the XIXth Century, after the traumatic 1870-1871 siege of Paris and defeat, as a means to have athletic young men fitter to make soldiers, and funded by charities or private sponsors with this aim. It has been exclusively a Men Sports until the end of that Century, and Women Gymnastics actually spread only after World War II. It was "utilitarian" and quite late in comparison with German countries, and its lack in France was seen as one of the factors of German victory in the war.
Skiing was also a pre-military Sport, hence Modern Biathlon for instance.
I don't think that Figure Skating has ever been deemed utilitarian?

 

[Mathman]

I don't think that Figure Skating has ever been deemed utilitarian?

Oh, I don't know about that. Thousands of years ago Scandinavians strapped animal bones to their feet and poled themselves along for the purpose of crossing frozen lakes efficiently.

 

[decafjava]

Oh, I don't know about that. Thousands of years ago Scandinavians strapped animal bones to their feet and poled themselves along for the purpose of crossing frozen lakes efficiently.

Hey when I did my MA at Carleton University in Ottawa I had to skate the Rideau Canal every winter to get my Beaver tails (a sweet fried pastry ) and hot chocolate. No triple axels though.

 

[Mathman]

In France, Gymnastics spread widely at the end of the XIXth Century, after the traumatic 1870-1871 siege of Paris and defeat, as a means to have athletic young men fitter to make soldiers...

I am reminded of Edward III of England, who outlawed the sport of "bowling at nine pins." The grounds for the ban was that this useless diversion distracted British youths from practicing their archery -- a patriotic duty during the hundred years war (14th -15 centuries).

The people responded by inventing the new sport of "bowling at ten pins."

 

[decafjava]

BTW does anyone have any updates on this issue? I heard it may have been resolved.

 

[Jennyf]

Poor Shaidorov, this should be a joyous time for him and I'm sure he didn't want to have to make this difficulty public. I hope this gets resolved in his favor and he can enjoy what should be a great time for him.

Whether medals should result in prize money is an interesting topic, as is funding generally for figure skating, which seems to differ drastically by country and federation. I don't agree with the comparison between the NBA or NHL and skating heads though. Yes, the head of the NHL makes millions. It's still many millions less than the highest paid player in the NHL. But figure skating doesn't rake in the money the way basketball or hockey do, at least not in the U.S. Complicated issue.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Poor Shaidorov, this should be a joyous time for him and I'm sure he didn't want to have to make this difficulty public. I hope this gets resolved in his favor and he can enjoy what should be a great time for him.

Whether medals should result in prize money is an interesting topic, as is funding generally for figure skating, which seems to differ drastically by country and federation. I don't agree with the comparison between the NBA or NHL and skating heads though. Yes, the head of the NHL makes millions. It's still many millions less than the highest paid player in the NHL. But figure skating doesn't rake in the money the way basketball or hockey do, at least not in the U.S. Complicated issue.

In Ancient Greece, I don't think that there was Prize Money literally, but the Cities used to be very generous with winning Athletes; today it would translate with State or Federation money rather than IOC's.

 

[CoyoteChris]

BTW does anyone have any updates on this issue? I heard it may have been resolved.

The skating lesson says he has his salery now and is happy.

 

[CoyoteChris]

Acutally, this whole thread has me rethinking the way I think about AM sports vs Olys vs Pro. Some colleges and universites have a $40 million pool to buy Am. Athletes with. Others in college sports are attempting to get in rules about how much can be given and how many times an athlete can switch schools.

 

[CoyoteChris]

I am reminded of Edward III of England, who outlawed the sport of "bowling at nine pins." The grounds for the ban was that this useless diversion distracted British youths from practicing their archery -- a patriotic duty during the hundred years war (14th -15 centuries).

The people responded by inventing the new sport of "bowling at ten pins."

Love that story....
Thomas Jefferson notoriously disliked ball games, famously writing in a 1785 letter that they were "too violent for the body, and stamp no character on the mind". Instead, he championed activities like walking and target shooting, which he believed built both physical strength and mental independence.

 

[CoyoteChris]

To me, the whole topic of public funding for the training of elite athletes is quite curious. What does the general public get out of someone running the hundred meter dash in 10 seconds instead of 11?

Back in the days of the Cold War the answer was straightforward. If the American athlete won, that proved that Capitalism was a superior economic-political system to Communism, and vice versa if the Soviet champion won.

A little more recently, a decade ago Michael Phelps won a bunch of swimming races. Am I expected to feel a surge of pride because I was born in the same country as Michael Phelps? I didn't win any swimming races -- what do I have to be proud of?

On the other hand, I do think that it is very much in the interest of society at large to provide robust opportunities to children for have access to recreational and sport activities. Everybody benefits, even citizens who do not have children themselves.

I think there are scandinavian countries that are big on providing access to recreational and sports activites to their kids with little emphasis on "Winning" at first.
As to the cold war being "over" I am reminded of a quote from Johnny Cash many years ago. I will paraphrase. "The Civil war. Date started...1861. Date ended...Pretty soon, I hope"

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Love that story....
Thomas Jefferson notoriously disliked ball games, famously writing in a 1785 letter that they were "too violent for the body, and stamp no character on the mind". Instead, he championed activities like walking and target shooting, which he believed built both physical strength and mental independence.

I've learned that Churchill's "No Sport" was a German attempt at intoxication, so did Jefferson really dislike ball games?

https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhjQiXUgGnZFrdnl44klaRdCvnHBg6Oex4GERm3DQRkHPamxoeqNN-pn0V5jGEfxDVpb1U3efYHXdI9Zt0Yb8rV6NpeKIFBWAyqCV7xx9oUJKDYJ46ZeLYhvoPvG1JYW0VHKgr2MNaBcQc/s640/churchill.jpg

 

[bartlebooth]

In Ancient Greece, I don't think that there was Prize Money literally, but the Cities used to be very generous with winning Athletes; today it would translate with State or Federation money rather than IOC's.

Among other things, Olympic Champions could attend theatre for free for the rest of their life. A nice perk, they should revive it!