News ISU Updates World Standings Point Distribution

[NanaPat]

Nah, you're not going to change my mind. I want to see competitions with more entries, and more varied participants.

Feel free to like them. I like some of the more varied participants as well. Just don't try to convince me that they are more important (and deserve more ranking points) than competitions like the Olympics and Worlds.

 

[NanaPat]

GP provides double-dips for the same person wins a stage, wins semi-final and the final. I am okay with GP getting lots of ranking because it's less dependent on how deep the national pool is. But, I mean, if someone can win everything, all power to them to get huge rank.

But only 2 GP per year count in the rankings. The points for the GP final are higher and replace the points from one of the individual GPs. So it's more of a boost than a double dip. And I agree that there is a lot of luck involved in who gets into the GPF (usually the top 4 or so are clear, but there can be a lot of tiebreakers, the luck of uneven fields, etc, in determining 5-8th place or so).

I question whether the points for 6th at the GPF should be higher than the points for 1st at a regular GP, since there is a lot of luck involved in those last few who qualify for the GPF (or just don't). But it's not a big points difference/boost.

 

[4everchan]

But only 2 GP per year count in the rankings. The points for the GP final are higher and replace the points from one of the individual GPs. So it's more of a boost than a double dip. And I agree that there is a lot of luck involved in who gets into the GPF (usually the top 4 or so are clear, but there can be a lot of tiebreakers, the luck of uneven fields, etc, in determining 5-8th place or so).

I question whether the points for 6th at the GPF should be higher than the points for 1st at a regular GP, since there is a lot of luck involved in those last few who qualify for the GPF (or just don't). But it's not a big points difference/boost.

and do not forget mean tech controllers

 

[DougDorsey]

if you gave them the same points as seniors, that means that the top junior skater may be ranked number 1 in the world which wouldn't be fair to the "real" senior number one in the world... but also would be ridiculous if that number one junior skater isn't even age eligible to compete with the seniors. Mao Shimada comes to mind.

Why wouldn't that be fair? If the World Standings are to have any legitimacy, they should reflect who the strongest skaters in the sport are, regardless of what level they're competing at. Let's start treating this like a sport.

If anything, it looks ridiculous when the SBS charts feature an abundance of juniors – which is going to be even more so the case next season, when Russian juniors will be fully back – while the World Standings charts are comprised mainly of seniors.

Anyone with the least bit of common sense looking at these two charts side by side will be able to figure out that seniors are being artificially propped up in the World Standings charts, robbing these charts of much of their meaning. We might as well just call them Senior Starting Order Charts.

 

[4everchan]

Why wouldn't that be fair? If the World Standings are to have any legitimacy, they should reflect who the strongest skaters in the sport are, regardless of what level they're competing at. Let's start treating this like a sport.

If anything, it looks ridiculous when the SBS charts feature an abundance of juniors – which is going to be even more so the case next season, when Russian juniors will be fully back – while the World Standings charts are comprised mainly of seniors.

Anyone with the least bit of common sense looking at these two charts side by side will be able to figure out that seniors are being artificially propped up in the World Standings charts, robbing these charts of much of their meaning. We might as well just call them Senior Starting Order Charts.

The juniors do not even skate under the same rules, why would it be fair to give them the same ranking points ?

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Feel free to like them. I like some of the more varied participants as well. Just don't try to convince me that they are more important (and deserve more ranking points) than competitions like the Olympics and Worlds.

I think we've got our wires crossed. Either you've misunderstood my point, or I misunderstood your previous point.

I'm not saying that the GP Final or the regular Senior GP's should be worth more than the Olympics and Worlds. In fact, I'm strongly arguing the exact opposite.

I'm saying that, rather than being second only to Senior Worlds and the Olympics, the GP Final shouldn't even be in the same breath as Senior Worlds, Junior Worlds, the Olympics, Europeans, or 4 Continents when it comes to how many points they are worth.

You were pointing out how many other skaters the winner of the GP Final has to beat quite a few skaters to get their hands on the title. And that the participants in the GP's are generally speaking the crème de la crème, so it is a big achievement to come out on top. Which is a good point, and very true. But I was saying that it isn't anywhere near as many as the winner of the other Majors have to beat, and that I prefer the events that include the lower ranked skaters, because they tend to be more interesting. Which is also a good point, and very true.

It's just different personal preferences. Hey, life would be boring if we all liked the same things.

Hope that clears things up

CaroLiza_fan

 

[SmileHappy34]

I personally feel that gp should be equal to junior worlds or a bit higher.

However many European four continents world and olympic medalist came from the grand prix final. Most finish in top 6 .

Also many federation uses gp final as determine who goes to fc euro worlds or Olympics and what type of envelop they are in.

So it should be just lower than olympic and worlds orcequal to fc or euro

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

You do not follow these threads enough to understand that some federations are not sending their skaters to challengers and senior Bs because of costs. That's the big difference between GPs and other smaller events : In GPs, the hosts pay to invite skaters, so some skaters, i.e. Canadian skaters can get invited to GPs but won't get their own federation to pay for a challenger event, even less so, two of them...
while a team in Europe may run around the circuit racking up points simply by taking a cheap flight across the border. There are many skaters who have VISA issues as well and have to be very creative in where they can compete. The reality is that those smaller competitions are centralized in mostly one part of the world.

So no, my own argument is not going against what I propose at all. I am not surprised you wouldn't be apprised of this particularity of challengers and senior bs considering you are from the part of the world where they are easy access

Thank you for your assumptions, but I know that even the Japanese Federation is reducing costs this way, and with this Federation it's worse because they don't even allow private funding to participate in those competitions accessible with a short flight and an easy visa. Yet it doesn't make Grand Prix more accessible for upper intermediate and intermediate Skaters, they have to go through International Competitions all the same... I wouldn't have called Canadian Skaters the most disadvantaged, by far. There's from time to time an Argentinian Skater, I remember the latest who was training on a 24 x 12m rink with two pillars in the middle, who cried when he saw the rink at his first Junior Grand Prix... Well he went to train to Canada but couldn't make it to Senior it seems. Another who had to go to Canada with better outcome but a rather frightening "tour" was Javier Fernández.
Visa problems are the same whichever the competition, as far as I know.
Could you see beyond Canada and magnifying and deforming anything happening to them? Can't you imagine how Canadian Ice Dancers in particular, are perceived as privileged with some of the best training centers "at home" while others have to expatriate so very far away?

 

[4everchan]

Thank you for your assumptions, but I know that even the Japanese Federation is reducing costs this way, and with this Federation it's worse because they don't even allow private funding to participate in those competitions accessible with a short flight and an easy visa. Yet it doesn't make Grand Prix more accessible for upper intermediate and intermediate Skaters, they have to go through International Competitions all the same... I wouldn't have called Canadian Skaters the most disadvantaged, by far. There's from time to time an Argentinian Skater, I remember the latest who was training on a 24 x 12m rink with two pillars in the middle, who cried when he saw the rink at his first Junior Grand Prix... Well he went to train to Canada but couldn't make it to Senior it seems. Another who had to go to Canada with better outcome but a rather frightening "tour" was Javier Fernández.
Visa problems are the same whichever the competition, as far as I know.
Could you see beyond Canada and magnifying and deforming anything happening to them? Can't you imagine how Canadian Ice Dancers in particular, are perceived as privileged with some of the best training centers "at home" while others have to expatriate so very far away?

The topic here is about ranking points for specific competitions. In that sense, my point is still valid. The smaller competitions are not easily accessible to all skaters so I am very fine for them to have lower ranking points. It makes perfect sense if they are cost prohibitive for some skaters, whether they are from Japan Canada or Argentina, that they are not so heavy in ranking points. The rest, is off-topic. I am pretty aware that Canadian skaters, coming from a big federation, have some perks, like access to rinks and excellent coaches. However, that makes strong skaters who still do not learn to perform under pressure because they do not have enough competition experience. There are plenty of skaters in Canada who skates just as well and often much better than many of the skaters who are participating in those smaller events. I will assume that you can understand this concept and will stick to the main topic here, ranking points.

 

[SmileHappy34]

You do not follow these threads enough to understand that some federations are not sending their skaters to challengers and senior Bs because of costs. That's the big difference between GPs and other smaller events : In GPs, the hosts pay to invite skaters, so some skaters, i.e. Canadian skaters can get invited to GPs but won't get their own federation to pay for a challenger event, even less so, two of them...
while a team in Europe may run around the circuit racking up points simply by taking a cheap flight across the border. There are many skaters who have VISA issues as well and have to be very creative in where they can compete. The reality is that those smaller competitions are centralized in mostly one part of the world.

So no, my own argument is not going against what I propose at all. I am not surprised you wouldn't be apprised of this particularity of challengers and senior bs considering you are from the part of the world where they are easy access

You seem to think that because I don't respond as most of you. I dont read without responding.
You imply that I dont follow or read when posted on federation or isu.

The juinor grand prix is mao shimada. She won it. In fact dominated.
Did she skate in junior international events?
The junior international is Elena gouda.

Yes it does seem the international events and challenger are less important.
Maybe u can tell me who won olympic or medal without a gp final top 6.
I know In past japan skaters got to world based on grand prix final or nhk.

The federation post how their skaters make envelop or make olympic or world team

It get reposted in this forum sometimes.
Canada does not get reposted
But it in their web page.

That i look read and interpret

U claim I misunderstand or don't know because I don't post in this forum enough.

 

[SmileHappy34]

It is not my job to correct or claim a interpretation. Nor claim someone post too much.

Everyone has right to interpretation and how post.
Without feeling neglected or dumb or stupid stressed or belittled.

Because it not another person's interpretation doesn't make it wrong.

 

[4everchan]

You seem to think that because I don't respond as most of you. I dont read without responding.
You imply that I dont follow or read when posted on federation or isu.

I wasn't talking to you at all.

The juinor grand prix is mao shimada. She won it. In fact dominated.
Did she skate in junior international events?
The junior international is Elena gouda.

Yes it does seem the international events and challenger are less important.
Maybe u can tell me who won olympic or medal without a gp final top 6.
I know In past japan skaters got to world based on grand prix final or nhk.

The federation post how their skaters make envelop or make olympic or world team

It get reposted in this forum sometimes.
Canada does not get reposted
But it in their web page.

That i look read and interpret

U claim I misunderstand or don't know because I don't post in this forum enough.

Again, I was talking to someone else and I quoted that user to make that clear. Please read again

 

[SmileHappy34]

I wasn't talking to you at all.

Again, I was talking to someone else and I quoted that user to make that clear. Please read again

Yes you were reply to someone else.
So was i.
However the message of being allowed to respond whether person or not .
Is getting lost

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

The topic here is about ranking points for specific competitions. In that sense, my point is still valid. The smaller competitions are not easily accessible to all skaters so I am very fine for them to have lower ranking points. It makes perfect sense if they are cost prohibitive for some skaters, whether they are from Japan Canada or Argentina, that they are not so heavy in ranking points. The rest, is off-topic. I am pretty aware that Canadian skaters, coming from a big federation, have some perks, like access to rinks and excellent coaches. However, that makes strong skaters who still do not learn to perform under pressure because they do not have enough competition experience. There are plenty of skaters in Canada who skates just as well and often much better than many of the skaters who are participating in those smaller events. I will assume that you can understand this concept and will stick to the main topic here, ranking points.

Well, I hope that I won't bother others by repeating, but your point is not valid because accessing Grand Prix is much less accessible, cost, previous competitions and all, than accessing two International Competitions. I'm perfectly aware that Skate Canada is doing very little financially even for its best Skaters and that this gives an advantage to those who have more personal or sponsor financial means, but what does this have to do with World Rankings? It changes nothing to the difference in accessibility between Grand Prix competitions and International Competitions.

 

[4everchan]

Well, I hope that I won't bother others by repeating, but your point is not valid because accessing Grand Prix is much less accessible, cost, previous competitions and all, than accessing two International Competitions. I'm perfectly aware that Skate Canada is doing very little financially even for its best Skaters and that this gives an advantage to those who have more personal or sponsor financial means, but what does this have to do with World Rankings? It changes nothing to the difference in accessibility between Grand Prix competitions and International Competitions.

Well, that's fine. Not the first time we disagree on something. Not the last time either. I do believe strongly that it's a good thing to lower the points of these rather small competitions. Some people disagree... some people do not care. In the end, honestly, the main problem is being able to grab so many points in GPF compared to Euros and 4CC. And in the end number 2... will it really change much the rankings ? Nope... because people will do what they have to do or what their Fed wants them to do.. no matter what the ISU says.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Well, that's fine. Not the first time we disagree on something. Not the last time either. I do believe strongly that it's a good thing to lower the points of these rather small competitions. Some people disagree... some people do not care. In the end, honestly, the main problem is being able to grab so many points in GPF compared to Euros and 4CC. And in the end number 2... will it really change much the rankings ? Nope... because people will do what they have to do or what their Fed wants them to do.. no matter what the ISU says.

It wasn't the last indeed, because to me, the Grand Prix Final is a sort of mid-season dress rehearsal of World Championships and by this, deserve nearly as many ranking points (though not quite as many). I admit that it's my perception of the importance of this competition, and that the only compelling thing is that it's "another way of selecting the best of the best", by successive eliminations.

 

[4everchan]

It wasn't the last indeed, because to me, the Grand Prix Final is a sort of mid-season dress rehearsal of World Championships and by this, deserve nearly as many ranking points (though not quite as many). I admit that it's my perception of the importance of this competition, and that the only compelling thing is that it's "another way of selecting the best of the best", by successive eliminations.

Exactly. I never gave much importance to GPF. So we do agree on one thing : we don't agree LOL