I think Lysacek got the PCS he well deserved and so did Kozuka. This competition is being held in Canada, why would the international judges prefer Lysacek over Kozuka undeservedly there...?
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Men's SP
- Thread starter Spun Silver
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I think Lysacek got the PCS he well deserved and so did Kozuka. This competition is being held in Canada, why would the international judges prefer Lysacek over Kozuka undeservedly there...?
Chan wasn't overmarked. He prolly would have gotten those scores at any other event had he managed to skate the program cleanly and land his 3xl like he did here and at Nats. He basically got pretty much level 4s on everything except his circular footwork. He deserved this. And no irritable or opinionated person can take this away. He skated his heart out and I'd like to see Kozuka do the footwork Patrick did tonight. Kozuka may have excellent basic skills, but until he pairs it with the level 4 difficulty of footwork and seamless transitions without hardly any crossovers inbetween then maybe I'll accept the 'he wuzrobbed' cries.
Yes, Daisuke's score was quite huge. Lower than Patricks's today, though.
I don't think it would be so annoying if the scoring was uniformly inflated... But after watching the programs (except Evan's, which I haven't found yet) I feel that the scores were completely ridiculous. In no way there should be such gap between Patrick's PCS and Takahiko's/Nobunari's. Takahiko's scores look extremely ungenerous when compared to his GPF SP (high 7's dropping to migh/mid 6's)... After seeing the scores I thought that the Japanese boys completely fell apart, which wasn't the case.
I agree that Patrick should be in the lead, but to beat his his PB by more than 7 points?! His previous PB was 81.39 at TEB, and people already thought that the scoring at TEB was very generous.
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- Jan 6, 2007
1. but why wasn't Kozuka rewarded for his excellent skating skills?
2. I actually think he has seamless transitions
3. yes, Chan's footwork looks a lot more complex than Kozuka's, it's also a lot more frantic - Kozuka doesn't toss his head around or makes those high-kicks (I think Chan had about 5 of those high-kicks in his program) - because it doesn't suit the music, nor the theme of the program.
And that is what bothers me: with those huge scores: it's like the judges are saying - this is the style we approve of. Any other ideas, like Kozuka's zen-like jazzy program, score automatically 5 points worse. Is that the message they want to send? We might end up with cookie-cutter performances just like with the ladies, the approved style: not spunky masculine (like Joubert), but not overly balletic feminine either - just everybody trying to pull a Buttle-Chan-Takahashi-program - and most of them probably failing badly, because those three are amazing outstanding skaters - but just because they are this outstanding, musical, doesn't mean I want to see only this style, this footwork...
I didn't like it a year ago and I don't like it now.
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Depends on what you think excellent skating skills are. His performance I don't think was as good as his previous performances. He seemed tentative in some things. And to me sometimes he just seemed to be going through the motions...
Whatever there was of them...
No of course the high kicks and head toss wouldn't suit the music Kozuka picked...but it does highlight Chan's music. And fyi, he had 3 kicks - a little bit of an exaggeration at 5. However, it doesn't mean that Kozuka's footwork couldn't be a lot more difficult even though his music is slower and jazzy.
It's not like Kozuka didn't get high scores. He just didn't get them last night. And Kozuka didn't perform as he did previously. Erego the lower marks. And Chan did, erego the high marks.
There is a slight diffculty with this system that certain things tend to score higher technically. Somehow the ISU needs to find a way to balance that out with the PCS scoring that would allow the simple moves that would enhance the music's style and make the program beautiful like some of the older programs that still hold up in some senses. I do think that skaters will need to get more creative if the ISU doesn't manage to tinker with the scoring system which kind of makes programs look a lot a like for certain skaters who don't know how to interweave the technical with the performance aspect.
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- Mar 25, 2008
Ant - my own feeling is that 4CC is a generally overscored event. But scoring seems to have gone up this season in general, with PBs for just about everyone. It seems like in Plushenko's time the judges were overscoring through the PCS, whereas now any cleanly done element will score +GOE. I thought positive GOE meant good/excellent, not just competent. So now we regularly see 80+ SPs and LPs in the 150s or even higher - but I don't see how the skating has improved, or even how the skaters/coaches have figured out how to work CoP better. Guys were regularly getting high levels as early as the 2005-6 season, but not these sort of scores (with a few exceptions).
I have no problem with Patrick Chan getting high levels; from what I have seen of his skating, the levels are indeed reflective of what he is doing. I do not think, however, that he should be getting the GOEs he likely received last night (and in earlier events). Yes, I've heard all about how he does steps leading into everything and takes no time to set up jumps. I've looked at his programs. He doesn't. That is - he does on some jumps, but certainly not universally and in some cases no more than other skaters.
As Okami noted, Patrick Chan was better scored than Dai last year; in fact, it looks like he just got the highest SP score by any skater not named Plushenko. He did this without a quad - ok, so did Dai last year, or Kozuka at GPF (which, you guys will remember, neither Kozuka nor Chan won). But Chan is not the first skater to skate a very well excuted SP, and the others were not scored like this - not even close, except for Dai. Stephane Lambiel and Jeffrey Buttle never got higher than 84, and regularly got less - yet I seem to remember some super programs from both. Johnny's Swan got him exactly 80 at Torino. I cannot believe it was 9 points worse than whatever Chan did. So why are we seeing such crazy scores that we haven't before, except during Plush's overscored final season? I have no answer to that one.
Medusa's post went up while I was typing, and I agree with just about everything in it. This sort of scoring can also lead to even more cookie-cutter skating, instead of each guy doing his own thing (Chan included) and doing it well. And Kozuka - even if not in top form - is not a skater who should get that sort of PCS.
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Kozuka may have been tenative, but apparently he had a low ball judge who gave him PCS from 5.5's to 6.25. I'm sorry that's wrong!.
Kozuka was very fast and light accross the ice, that's from people who were there. He deserved at very least high 7's to 8s on skating skills. He should have at least gotten a 35 on PCS that's an AT LEAST. This is one of those cases where I want to know who that freakin judge was.
Kozuka was very fast and light accross the ice, that's from people who were there. He deserved at very least high 7's to 8s on skating skills. He should have at least gotten a 35 on PCS that's an AT LEAST. This is one of those cases where I want to know who that freakin judge was.
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After watching Patrick's program a couple times now and comparing it to some of the other men, I think that Patrick has more connection to the music than a lot of the other skaters. He throws himself into the choreography and uses his whole body to feel the music. Also, he entered his flip combo and lutz from connecting steps. Before the axel, he didn't have steps and the jump preparation was from a corner to the middle of the ice, a fraction of most of the other skaters. Some of the men take a length of the rink to prepare for their jumps.
I'm not saying that Patrick maybe was overscored a bit, but I think most of us knew going into 4CC that overscoring would happen.
A remark on PCS though...
How the hell did Evan Lysacek get more PCS than Kozuka or Abbott? He's only 1.25 behind Chan! That's a bit ridiculous...
I'm not saying that Patrick maybe was overscored a bit, but I think most of us knew going into 4CC that overscoring would happen.
A remark on PCS though...
How the hell did Evan Lysacek get more PCS than Kozuka or Abbott? He's only 1.25 behind Chan! That's a bit ridiculous...
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- Joined
- Mar 12, 2007
Great skate from the top 3!
Patrick did a wonderful job, his footwork is the best in class. But the 50+ TES is rediculous. His 3A still seems to be >1/4 pre-rotated to me and the lip is obvious. That said, I really admire him for handling the pressure so well.
Comments like this are troubling, and the comments about the PCS. However good/great Chan is, is he truly THAT much better than everyone else? Come on, really? Better than Kozuka, better than Dai at his best, etc.?
If he lips, he should get dinged for it. And if we're going to scrutinize UR so much, then we need to look at pre-rotation, too.
I know several people are being offended by the so-called "bashing," but I haven't heard anyone say Chan isn't super -- just that he's maybe not THAT much better than every other current or past skater ever scored under COP.
It's just worrying. I don't overall like COP, but I will say that it has often seemed to lead to more actual judging of the event and the performances of the day, rather than reputation judging, so when we see results like this, it gives you a kind of "nothing's changed" feeling.
ETA: Someone made an interesting suggestion -- would it be feasible and desirable to have judges for certain elements, such as a judge for the jumps, a judge for the spins, etc.? How about one judge for each PC score? An idea worth considering.
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- Jan 23, 2004
My answer is why not. I think Patrick's 50 plus TES score was bit ridiculous.
I meant him being above Abbott and Kazuka, PCS-wise, was a bit ridiculous. If you leave the numbers out and just rank them from 1st-whatever, there is no way he should be ahead of those two, from a PCS perspective. I agree that the event has probably been overmarked, but as a whole, not just certain skaters.
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- Jul 11, 2003
Good idea! but is it financially challenging? the CoP is a nitpicking system and should be treatd as such - not like it was a more serious 6.0 system. Each judge a specialist in indiviual element could enter his score and be responsible for what he gives.
No one can deny the great skate of Patrick that SP night, but the score, to me, was somewhat inflated. It will be difficult to overtake him by the contestants, so the gold medal has lost a tight race. It reminds me of Joubert in Tokyo who had such a huge score after the SP, then skated so poorly in the LP but won anyway because of the lead he held after the SP.
Saturday morning in vancouver will not be the nail biter we anticipated. Patrick would have to have a complete meltdown and nobody wants that.
In place of the nailbiting competition, I will look for some stunning LPs from Patrick, Evan, Kozuka, Mroz, Jeremy, and Nobunari. They are all good skaters and wouldn't it be super if they all skate their best?
Forget about placements. This is the rehearsal for Worlds.
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- Jul 11, 2003
Gold. Do not understand laptop as a problem.
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- Nov 8, 2008
Patrick skated the best last night. He deserved to be the leader but the 88.90 score?? Looks like the Canadian are really getting the hometown discount right infront of everyone face. His score at most should be around 83-84 range. Once again the judges use the PCS mark to inflated the score beyond eveyone reach.
Looks like we going to get another alla Plushenko score at this coming Olympics being held at home town. At least Plushy has a quad in his program. Let see if the judges give him 170+ for his LP with only 8 triples.
Kazuko PCs was way too low. Other than the scratchy landing on 3A, the rest of the program was. Spins are fast and center. Footwork is great. Evan was right now his average 80+ range so good for him. I hope he nail the quad in the LP.
Looks like we going to get another alla Plushenko score at this coming Olympics being held at home town. At least Plushy has a quad in his program. Let see if the judges give him 170+ for his LP with only 8 triples.
Kazuko PCs was way too low. Other than the scratchy landing on 3A, the rest of the program was. Spins are fast and center. Footwork is great. Evan was right now his average 80+ range so good for him. I hope he nail the quad in the LP.
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- Jul 11, 2003
While the Euros will give chance to one their own. No problem.
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- Jul 11, 2003
One has to remember that Evan's program was choreographed by the dowager queen of figure skating, and those European judges obey her. btw, how many European judges there in Vancouver?
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- Oct 27, 2006
I guess my point is to try to focus more on the skating than the actual scores. I am absolutely not an expert with this new judging system, but I feel the placements were correct. What I like about COP is that skaters are judged on everything...not just the jumps. I feel that the programs are way more interesting now than they were through the 80's and 90's (especially with the men). But, my tastes have also changed. I used to feel that the guy who landed the most difficult jumps deserved the win (in fact, in my younger days I preferred Elvis to Kurt!!! When I rewatch their programs now, I don't even know what I was thinking! I love both of them, but will watch Kurt's programs again and again.). I don't necessarily feel that way anymore. Unless youa re an expert and have studied all of the intricacies of the COP, can you REALLY say with absolute certainty, that certain skaters were robbed??
I really resent that. I guess I do agree Patrick was overscored a bit. There is only one Canadian judge on the panel. I think the Canadians are performing well for two reasons. One, they are a strong team no matter where they are. Two, performing in front of you home country, I think, can give a skater that extra energy to perform their best. The team has done phenomenally so far, so please don't take that away from them by saying that they are getting preferential treatment because they're at home.
