Mens' LP

[siberia82]

I have to defend the judges on that one. Dai's total score was much higher than Patrick's, his LP scored a good 15 points higher. Of course, he skated a much more difficult program.

Oops, my mistake. For some reason I read Dai's total score as 246.41 and not 264.41.

I'll word it another way: I think it's absolutely ludicrous that Chan's PB has already exceeded anything Buttle or Lambiel have ever obtained. I still see Patrick as he is right now as a work-in-progress, not the apex of men's figure skating.

Judging from Medusa's quote, I think this is not good for Patrick, either. He seems over-confident.

Yes, he might be suckered into complacency if this overscoring continues.

 

[fumie_fumie]

Judging from Medusa's quote, I think this is not good for Patrick, either. He seems over-confident.

Don Laws is doing a fabulous job keeping Patrick well grounded. You should see how they work over a period of 3 or 4 days, before making any assumption on Patrick.

 

[Buttercup]

I think it's absolutely ludicrous that Chan's PB has already exceeded anything Buttle or Lambiel have ever obtained.

I'm with you on that one. And while I don't think quads are everything, I find it strange the Patrick's LP yesterday scored higher than Joubert's 3-quad program from 2006 CoR (which is Brian's PB). As I've said, if the scoring were more reasonable, we'd all just be happy for Patrick; as it is, it creates antagonism, IMO.

ETA: fumie fumie, I can't make any judgments about Patrick Chan, whom obviously I don't know personally. But what Medusa quoted doesn't sound too great.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Comparing Chan with Joubert - If Joubert does have the quad in his favor, what else does Joubert have better than Chan? and how does the 'else' compare for points?

 

[bekalc]

Comparing Chan with Joubert - If Joubert does have the quad in his favor, what else does Joubert have better than Chan? and how does the 'else' compare for points?

Well I think Joubert's jumps are just as strong in general. Here's one of my issues with Chan's win too. Look at Ponsero, he has amazing skating skills too and jumps. At Europeans he landed 2 triple axels and a quad. Sure some of his jumps at the end had some not so great landings but Yannick's total score for two triple axels and a quad: 151. It's ridiculous and crazy.

Chan has a lot of good qualities, but he's not the only skater in the world with excellent skating skills/jumps etc.

 

[enlight78]

Well I think Joubert's jumps are just as strong in general. Here's one of my issues with Chan's win too. Look at Ponsero, he has amazing skating skills too and jumps. At Europeans he landed 2 triple axels and a quad. Sure some of his jumps at the end had some not so great landings but Yannick's total score for two triple axels and a quad: 151. It's ridiculous and crazy.

Chan has a lot of good qualities, but he's not the only skater in the world with excellent skating skills/jumps etc.

IMHO
Kozuka,Daisuke, and Chan have effortless jumps while Ponsero, Brian, and Evan have muscled jumps so I think they will always be a step behind in GOE because of their technique. I lot of skate is about beauty even with the jumps. I remeber duringh the GPF short Kozuka jumps were all like butter. Also if jeremy or chan just do an average jump they will still get +1 because of how they enter the jump. Brian rarely have any kind of difficulty entries in to his jumps.Both Chan and Jerermy programs are unbelieavably hard.Mroz long program is not to shabby either. If Jeremy had the same butter jumps of Kozuka he would be getting even higher scores than chan. And if Kozuka had chans choreography(complexity) , he too would be unstopable.Chan is pushing the limits just not technically. I still believe that Buttle was never rightfully awarded for what he did,ll and Kozuka skating skills are not fully rewarded but judges are human not computers.

 

[luvsasha]

I'll word it another way: I think it's absolutely ludicrous that Chan's PB has already exceeded anything Buttle or Lambiel have ever obtained. I still see Patrick as he is right now as a work-in-progress, not the apex of men's figure skating.

I agree 100%. I want to preface this by saying that I do like Patrick and I really enjoyed his skate yesterday, but i found it a little disconcerting that he got an 80 for PCS. Lambiel had to work for YEARS to get an 80 and he was IMO one of the best ever. It's just kind of crazy that Patrick got that so early in his career.

 

[screech]

I'm going to restate someting I've said before. I'm a fan of Chan's and think that he did deserve to win 4CC and the LP.

That said, his scores were rather high if looking at other skates by any skater over the season. But then again, so were Evans for having jumps downgraded. And Nobu for downgraded jumps and falls, etc.

That said, Chan's marks, compard to the OTHER MARKS FROM THIS COMPETITION were not insanely high. All scores were higher than they would be if this were at a competition like Europeans. If all the skaters had performed how they did at a different competition I have no doubts that the results would have been the same, but that all the scores would have been lower, with Chan no higher than 155.

It was inflated all around , NOT JUST Patrick, and I don't think anyone is arguing with the results, just the scores he got. So why not the scores everyone got?

Edited to add: People are worried that Chan isn't going to push himself - as of Canadians he was saying he was working the quad but it wasn't worth it yet to put in competition. Just think - 2 years ago he couldn't do a triple axel. 1 year ago he was working to land 1 in competition. Now 2 is his thing. The guy is working so hard and continuing to push himself. I expect to see a quad in his program next year, when the time is right for him to do it. He doesn't seem to be one to just stand by and expect to be on the top without pushing himself. And he also doesn't seem like one who plans to win the Olympics next year and retire at 19. If he wants to stay in longer he needs it and he knows it.

 

[luvsasha]

because everyone didn't win. everyone didn't have an insurmountable lead. and everyone were not skating in front of a home crowd.

 

[screech]

because everyone didn't win. everyone didn't have an insurmountable lead. and everyone were not skating in front of a home crowd.

• There can only be 1 winner
• Patrick's SP was head and shoulders above the rest (maybe not 7 points above the next best, but still should have been a few points above)
• As I said, he would have won the LP and event in front of any crowd if all competitors skated as they did at this event

 

[luvsasha]

I don't think most people think he shouldn't have won. I think they're mostly complaing about the scores. and you said yourself that maybe he wasn't 7 points better than everybody else.

but you know what, i don't really like arguing. I was just trying to answer your question about why aren't people complaining about everybody else's score.

 

[figuristka]

I really did not see any biased behavour by the judges overall towards the Canadian skaters. As i wrote earlier Chan would have won and been marked the same if he had been Japanese, American or Korean. I just think the judges appreciate all the complex parts of his skating. I have no problem with the quad having a higher face value though if its something the skaters and coaches think is important. Perhaps some find Chan too complex in his skating. Everyone likes something different.

 

[Jaana]

Patrick looks to be good and polite person. But I think that few skaters who look like his friends are not really frank to him.

But it was Evan who contemplated that quad is not well appreciated. He pointed how dangerous it was to train this jump. And how dangerous it is to try this jump in competiton. And points for this jump are quit low. Those were his own words. And now he speak about inspiration seeing Patrick to win without quad?

Well, Lysacek did not speak about the quad in this competition, did he? I think lots of people (skaters) may see Chan´s short programme as an inspriration. To be that, it does not need a quad, I would say. But it is true that quad is not really appreciated as much as it should be as a difficult jump, in my opinion. Besides, I remember that Joubert did speak a lot about the quad after 2008 Worlds...

 

[screech]

I don't think most people think he shouldn't have won. I think they're mostly complaing about the scores. and you said yourself that maybe he wasn't 7 points better than everybody else.

but you know what, i don't really like arguing. I was just trying to answer your question about why aren't people complaining about everybody else's score.

I don't like arguing either. I am perfectly find for people having their own opinions and believe that everyone has the right to think they're right because nobody is wrong - we all just view things differently.

I did say that 7 points higher in the SP was a bit much, but he did skate a spectacular SP that was heads and shoulders above the rest. And all (at least most) scores would have been a few points lower if it were a different competition, but sadly, I think there would have been complaining there too, if everyone scored even 2-3 points lower and Chan, heck, 7 points lower in the LP.

I think Chan is suffering from baby ballerina syndrome. Not because he is one, but because of such success so young - people often don't want to see such youngsters defeating the older, more seasoned competitors. Which is fine! But it's happening, and most people are saying that he did deserve to win here. Just that the scores were a bit high. And as I've said, his weren't the only scores that were higher than they would have been if this were, say Europeans.

 

[bekalc]

I really did not see any biased behavour by the judges overall towards the Canadian skaters. As i wrote earlier Chan would have won and been marked the same if he had been Japanese, American or Korean.

Well I don't know about that when you had a judge who gave Oda 5.50 in skating skills marking the Chinese guy higher, and Kozuka 6.0 in skating skills. You can argue this guy clearly had something out for the Japanese.

 

[Oscilla]

It was inflated all around , NOT JUST Patrick, and I don't think anyone is arguing with the results, just the scores he got. So why not the scores everyone got?

...Do you really think Kozuka and Oda were overscored?

IMHO Lysacek's scores were about right, the Japanese were ROBBED, and Patrick's scores make Plushenko's Olympic score look moderate.

I think Evan's reaction to Chan's scores sums it up:
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/5672/nogodbn8.jpg

As i wrote earlier Chan would have won and been marked the same if he had been Japanese, American or Korean.

I disagree. Looking at how the judges scored the event, had Patrick been Japanese he'd probably end up off the podium altogether. [/angry rant]

 

[screech]

I think that they probably would have scored about the same at a different competition (I should have reiterated in that part of my quote about my 'most' being inflated), but with maybe slightly lower TES and higher PCS to even out their score (I agree they should have had a bit higher on PCS - higher at least than Evan whose PCS I don't particularly understand).

As I had said before The results would have been the same elsewhere, but with Patrick's score being about 5 points lower, Evan's maybe 2-3 points lower, and most of the rest hovering around about where they were, give or take a few points.

It's been said before that 4CC has consistently been an inflated event, especially for the winners, so Patrick's score isn't exactly out of the ordinary for a winner of 4CC.

 

[Oscilla]

I think that they probably would have scored about the same at a different competition (I should have reiterated in that part of my quote about my 'most' being inflated),

Nope. It was already mentioned in that thread that they scored higher while skating worse (or much worse).

It's been said before that 4CC has consistently been an inflated event, especially for the winners, so Patrick's score isn't exactly out of the ordinary for a winner of 4CC.

And it's been already said in this thread that if it wasn't so selectively inflated, nobody would bother to argue and whine about the scores.

 

[ks777]

...Do you really think Kozuka and Oda were overscored?

IMHO Lysacek's scores were about right, the Japanese were ROBBED, and Patrick's scores make Plushenko's Olympic score look moderate.

I think Evan's reaction to Chan's scores sums it up:
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/5672/nogodbn8.jpg



I disagree. Looking at how the judges scored the event, had Patrick been Japanese he'd probably end up off the podium altogether. [/angry rant]

I am still confused as to why some judges gave Kozuka 6.0and Oda 5.5 for their skating skills in SP. Actually the same judge gave Oda 5.5 for everything else and gave Kozuka 6.0 for everything else. I feel like some judges were trying so hard to hold Kozuka and Oda down at this competition.

 

[bekalc]

I am still confused as to why some judges gave Kozuka 6.0and Oda 5.5 for their skating skills in SP. Actually the same judge gave Oda 5.5 for everything else and gave Kozuka 6.0 for everything else. I feel like some judges were trying so hard to hold Kozuka and Oda down at this competition.

One thing I noticed was that Kozuka's PCS went slightly up at the long but still were lower than what he got all season... I have to wonder if something was said. But seriously IF I were the Japanese Federation I'd be saying something.