Mens' LP

[skatingbc]

After watching Patrick's, Takahiko's and Nobunari's performances a couple times to make sure I didn't miss anything, I think that Patrick still should have won. Maybe the gap in PCS shouldn't have been as big as it was, but I don't think, in this performance, that either Taka or Nobu should have had higher PCS than Patrick. Taka should have been closer than Nobu was PCS-wise. I thought Nobu's circular footwork looked a bit, um, laboured? It looked really haevy on the ice, if that makes any sense. I thought all three gave good performances, but I could agree that Taka and Nobu's PCS should have at least been higher than Evan's.

Can we lay off Patrick though? It's not his fault that the judges made a mistake.

 

[demarinis5]

(snip)
Can we lay off Patrick though? It's not his fault that the judges made a mistake.

It is unfortunate for Patrick and it does take the glow off his win (at least on the forum here). All the guy did was go out there and skate. I don't think anyone thinks it was Patrick's fault.

 

[bekalc]

After watching Patrick's, Takahiko's and Nobunari's performances a couple times to make sure I didn't miss anything, I think that Patrick still should have won. Maybe the gap in PCS shouldn't have been as big as it was, but I don't think, in this performance, that either Taka or Nobu should have had higher PCS than Patrick. Taka should have been closer than Nobu was PCS-wise. I thought Nobu's circular footwork looked a bit, um, laboured? It looked really haevy on the ice, if that makes any sense. I thought all three gave good performances, but I could agree that Taka and Nobu's PCS should have at least been higher than Evan's.

Can we lay off Patrick though? It's not his fault that the judges made a mistake.

Of course I don't think Taka or Nobu should have had higher PCS than Patrick. Nobody's saying they should have. We are just complaining about the 10 point gap.

 

[skatingbc]

Of course I don't think Taka or Nobu should have had higher PCS than Patrick. Nobody's saying they should have. We are just complaining about the 10 point gap.

Okay. From watching their performances, this seems fair enough.

I guess I feel like a lot of people have been more bent on tearing Patrick down than looking at it objectively. I'm a huge Patrick fan, but that being said, I think Taka and Nobu both had great skates and deserved a few extra PCS points.

 

[Medusa]

Aboout Ponsero's program: despite the three monster elements - he does just one Lutz, no Flip, he repeats the Triple Salchow, because of the Flip he is already short of one Triple. So in the end his adavantage with the jumps is very small. Plus he tends to look tentative and often genuinely surprised that he is landing all the jumps. I really think that he is rightly behind on PCS (not really 10 points behind, but 4, 5 points sound about right). On his to-do-lists should be till next year: grow some confidence + add that stupid Flip or the Quad Salchow. I think then we can talk about Ponsero beating Chan.

I think Evan's reaction to Chan's scores sums it up:
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/5672/nogodbn8.jpg

Nice capture.

At least he didn't slam any doors or trashed slender quadless Canadians in the press conference - like a certain Frenchman with a bad temper. But they should totally form a support group. You know, with anger management classes for the next Worlds and Olympics.

 

[screech]

At least he didn't slam any doors or trashed slender quadless Canadians in the press conference - like a certain Frenchman with a bad temper. But they should totally form a support group. You know, with anger management classes for the next Worlds and Olympics.

Figure skating rage-a-holics anonymous! The FSRA.

 

[bekalc]

Well I have a feeling that if Chan wins world with a skate like he did tonight and those HUGE PC scores, that there will be backlash (Finally thank God!)

And either Chan's PCS will go down or other people's PCS will go up.

 

[maharbaforwards]

re:

Patrick was the deserved winner of the SP, LP and the entire competition IMHO. I don't understand why people are assuming that he was held up because of the fact that he was Canadian, because the fact of the matter is- the judges are an international panel. The probable truth is that there are different variables that determine how a particular skater performs in a situation. The audience is perhaps a huge factor in how someone skates. A skater can feed off the enthusiasm of the crowd like was the case at this 4cc with PC, or they can feel enormous pressure from it (see Kim, Yuna and the last GPF). So the fact that he is Canadian does not have anything to do it, but the fact that he was a Canadian CHAMPION and Contender skating in front of a pro-Canadian national audience and feeding from it, probably elevated his performance. The judges should be impervious to audience reaction, but the crowd's enthusiasm makes the performance seem really good. Notwithstanding, I think that Patrick's PCS are well-deserved. Take away all the jumping elements, and that program is still a thing of beauty especially that great last SLSS. People make an argument that it took Lambiel and Buttle (my two favourite skaters of the last generation) AGES to receive PCS of that nature. I argue that, although these two men had great programs with fantastic content, they were rarely ever clean. Granted, PC wasn't clean either but it was a tight landing on a 3Loop and a Waxel which overall did not jar the program and hence should not effect the PCS. Lambiel and Buttle have struggled in the past to skate a falls-free program, and when they have been clean (Buttle's Worlds Free Skate) have gotten high PCS scores (although Brian beating him last year in that department leaves me). I am still :disapp: that we were unable to see a clean performance of that great Lambiel Flamenco or Buttle Glenn Gould programs. I like Evan Lysacek but I think that if we were truthful about PCS, he would probably be second tier (Chan, Kozuka, Oda, Abbott, Joubert, and even Weir above him). He does have the slight technical advantage over PC in that he has a quad (but that should be negated by the +GOE Patrick gets on non-jump and hell, even the jump elements). Regarding the Japanese men and PCS, I think that they do deserve to get high PCS but the fact that they fell mars their respective programs. Kozuka, aside from some tight landings on his jumps, was royally screwed in the SP (Which is glorious in my opinion). How Abbott gets a score that is less than 1 point away from Kozuka with a fall on the 3Lutz and mess ups on the footwork sequence, I will never know. But regarding the LP, both Japanese men were kinda flat IMO and especially Oda. Kozuka's LP is not the same calibre at his SP also IMO, plus he had one fall and one pretty iffy landing on the 3Axel which kinda negate his PCS to me. I don't know if it merits 10 points lower than Patrick, but seeing as PCS are worth even more in the LP it makes sense. Evan's PCS should not beat Kozuka and Oda's. On another aside, Evan comprehensively winning the silver and beating Mroz by 40+ points should hopefully stop the Weir should be sent to Worlds debate.

 

[fumie_fumie]

For those who think Chan's PCS scores are inflated. Read the last post on this thread. The last poster seems to know what he/she is talking about.

Keep in mind that the first PCS score given out is SS, while the other PCS scores tend to pivot within a narrow range of the SS mark. If you have SS, you're a step ahead. I actually talked to a test judge for the USFSA at 4CC and when I made that point he validated it but saying that in some test comps, judges are being asked now to assign CH and IN marks first; the early results are that the marks are coming out differently, so this phenomenon might be studied further. But, for now, if you want to pull big time PCS marks, you can't ignore what you're doing to max out your SS.

http://forums.isu.org/viewtopic.php?t=1063

 

[amateur]

Here's something to think about, Re: Patricks unpopular 10-point PCS advantage (which was in fact only 9.5 points, but I digress... ) over the Japanese skaters in this competition:

The PCS in the LP are multiplied by a factor of 2. So, in fact, the judges are only "giving" Patrick 5 points (or 4.75) higher in PCS, which I think is roughly in line with how they judge the SP (haven't checked), but in the case of the LP, this gap gets exaggerated due to the factoring... having superior PCS gives one more advantage in the LP compared to the SP. I guess the theory being, that you'd then have to screw up twice as much, relative to your competitor, to lose your PCS advantage, which you have ample opportunity to do if you're not the best skater, since the LP is almost twice the length. I see this, arguably, as a potential flaw in the system - is 2.0 too high of a factor, especially for such a subjective (and somewhat misused) part of the scoring?

Now, whether or not the Japanese skaters should have been closer to Patrick's PCS, at least on some components (more particulary in the case of Kozuka, IMO) is another issue ... but I just wanted to point this out to people getting annoyed about the judges "handing Patrick a 10-point bonus"; we should keep in mind that what the judges actually intend with the scores, is exaggerated simply due to the math involved.

 

[amateur]

On a side note, but not related to the point of my last post: In my humble opinion, Chan simply DID skate THAT BEAUTIFULLY in this LP at this competition No problem with the scores.

The SP lead I'm mildly uncomfortable with (I do get just the slightest sense of "frantic" from that SP, that I din't get from the LP performance, but don't know how judges see that nor incorporate it into scores), but even there I don't think the score are outrageous, given how darned packed and relentless that program is.
Like many, I would argue for Kozuka being undermarked in the SP, but not necessarily the rest so much, not to any outrageous extent.

 

[Marine63]

Evan Lysacek

Anyone have a link to Evan's LP? Thanks in advance!

 

[sarukou]

I see this, arguably, as a potential flaw in the system - is 2.0 too high of a factor, especially for such a subjective (and somewhat misused) part of the scoring?

This is a very good point. Why is the factor of the mens PCS so high? Every other event is lower. Shouldn't it be on level with the ladies? Instead of a 1.0 factor for the short and 2.0 for the long, why not 0.8 and 1.6?

 

[bekalc]

But the judges are aware of the 2.0 factor and as such can take that into account when it comes to the PCS they gave out..

And the point is in the short program there was an 8 point gap between Kozuka and Chan on PCS.. Whereas only a 1 point gap between Chan/Evan.

And people always point out Kozuka's performance issues which are there, but Chan has things he can work on there too. .

 

[Mathman]

I think the reason for the 2.0 factor is to try to give the P\program component scores about the same weight as the elements scores.

For the short program, the weight is 1.0. So a typical excellent men's SP, with PCSs 7.00, would be about 35 points TES and 35 points PCS. (In practice, the TES are a little higher for the men's SP.)

For the LP, you should be able to get twice as much on the element side. So the PCSs are weighted twice as heavily to keep pace.

Counting the SS and Transitions on the tech side, this gives a desired balance of 70% tech, 30% presentation (choreo, interpretation and presentation).

For the ladies, they usually get about 80% of the men's scores in technical elements. Therefore the PCSs are weighted .80 and 1.60 to maintain the balance.

Something like that.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

After reading all this disussion on Chan v. Kozuka and Oda, I am beginning to think Lyacek should have won. He was graded correctly and imo, skated the second best of the entire comp.

 

[Tonichelle]

I think Evan should win everytime j/k

 

[Mathman]

I think Evan should win everytime j/k

Well, he worlds the hardest out there anyway.

 

[Tonichelle]

^^ Plus, he's cute to boot! (that's just for Joesitz since I haven't used the cute argument since I was 18)

 

[sarukou]

I think the reason for the 2.0 factor is to try to give the P\program component scores about the same weight as the elements scores.

For the short program, the weight is 1.0. So a typical excellent men's SP, with PCSs 7.00, would be about 35 points TES and 35 points PCS. (In practice, the TES are a little higher for the men's SP.)

For the LP, you should be able to get twice as much on the element side. So the PCSs are weighted twice as heavily to keep pace.

Counting the SS and Transitions on the tech side, this gives a desired balance of 70% tech, 30% presentation (choreo, interpretation and presentation).

For the ladies, they usually get about 80% of the men's scores in technical elements. Therefore the PCSs are weighted .80 and 1.60 to maintain the balance.

Something like that.

In the short program at 4CC, the top 5 ladies' short program marks were an average of 8.67 points higher in TES than PCS.
For the men, the top 5 shorts were 8.89 points higher in TES than PCS.
Should we raise the PCS factor even more to match the technical scores? This would be ridiculous.

I think the PCS were probably intended to be weighted as you said. However, for the top skaters there is a problem when massive GOE's are awarded.
So a typical excellent men's SP, with PCSs 7.00, would be about 35 points TES and 35 points PCS in theory. But with the added GOE's, the equality is thrown off, so that the typical SP is about 42 points TES and 35 points PCS.

This is the problem –– the awarding of so many subjective marks in the form of GOE's and PCS; these subjective marks total more than 50% of the points awarded for a program.
By reducing the factor of the PCS or by limiting the amount of GOE's awarded, there would be a balance of 50% technical and 50% subjective marks.