Mens' LP

[Hsuhs]

I think Evan should win everytime j/k

Well, Stephane Lambiel himself says in a recent interview Evan should have won this year's Nationals.

(It's in Russian, http://news.sport-express.ru/online/ntext/28/nl283024.html
and it's a handsome interview with him talking about scores inflations, PCS etc. There is an English version of it somewhere as well which hasn't been posted yet, you have to wait till it is, to enjoy it in full)

 

[wonderlen3000]

EVAN should have won!! Aside from 4T<, he nailed all of his jumps, 8 in total. Chan was way too inflated, considering he give up 8.2 for poping the 3A. With his 7 triples, his score should have 150+ most. Well i think isu should just skip the world and olympics and give the chan gold medek. Talk about a suck up.

 

[screech]

Shouldn't the people hating on Chan HOPE he wins worlds? Not since 1984 has the reigning mens world champ won the Olympics... so history is on the haters side if he wins worlds.

 

[Tonichelle]

are people actually hating ON CHAN? I'll admit I haven't read everything word for word, but it seems that what's coming in question is the JUDGING, not the SKATER.

 

[Mathman]

By reducing the factor of the PCS or by limiting the amount of GOE's awarded, there would be a balance of 50% technical and 50% subjective marks.

I would have no objection to that. But that is the old 6.0 division. Fifty percent "technical" and 50% "artistry."

The CoP is based on a completely different idea. The division is not between technical and presentation, but between "elements" and "program."

In principle, 50% of the mark was supposed to be given to the individual elements, including both base marks (what elements did you do) and GOEs (how well did you do them). The other 50% (the program component scores) was awarded to the program as a whole.

The PCSs are split 40% technical (skating skills and transitions) and 60% presentation (the other three PCSs).

I'm not saying it has to be this way, but I think that was the basic idea behind the CoP. It's not tech versus artistry, it's individual elements versus program-as-a-whole.

 

[sarukou]

Shouldn't the people hating on Chan HOPE he wins worlds? Not since 1984 has the reigning mens world champ won the Olympics... so history is on the haters side if he wins worlds.

Chan will win both the World and Olympic title.
Why? He has played the system so perfectly; a system that rewards quality and skating ability over difficulty and risk.

Does it matter that he doesn't include a quad? That he rarely skates a clean long? That he has troubles with a second triple axel?
No. Because "skating is more than just the jumps." "It is not figure jumping, it is figure skating."
Only problem is, figure skating is a sport. And it is less of a sport in 2009 than it was a decade ago.

 

[sarukou]

I would have no objection to that. But that is the old 6.0 division. Fifty percent "technical" and 50% "artistry."

CoP is somewhat different in it's division. It is more like 40% actual completed elements (Technical), and 60% PCS and GOE's (presentation). Reverting to 50/50 would just make sense.

The CoP is based on a completely different idea. The division is not between technical and presentation, but between "elements" and "program."

In principle, 50% of the mark was supposed to be given to the individual elements, including both base marks (what elements did you do) and GOEs (how well did you do them). The other 50% (the program component scores) was awarded to the program as a whole.

I understand. However, the "program as a whole" (i.e. technical and presentation combined) seems to be more in favor of skating and quality vs. the technical elements themselves.
Arguably in the 6.0, jumps were accounting for too much, which was part of the reason for the introduction of CoP. Now it has swung the other way –– in the CoP, presentation and quality are rewarded more than the jumps. Figure skating needs to find a balance between the two in order to truly succeed.

The PCSs are split 40% technical (skating skills and transitions) and 60% presentation (the other three PCSs).

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I don't think there is a description of a "technical program component score?"
Anyways, even though each individual component was intended to be judged separately, this is obviously not happening. They are being used like the presentation score of the 6.0.

I'm not saying it has to be this way, but I think that was the basic idea behind the CoP. It's not tech versus artistry, it's individual elements versus program-as-a-whole.

I agree that was the basic idea. Sadly, the CoP has morphed into something completely different.

 

[Tonichelle]

it's interesting... the argument is the CoP is too much for the technical and not caring about the quality and it's also the CoP cares too much about the skating/quality and not enough about the technical

seems to me if both arguments are right then it's doing the best job that any judging system can.

 

[bekalc]

Chan will win both the World and Olympic title.
Why? He has played the system so perfectly; a system that rewards quality and skating ability over difficulty and risk.

Does it matter that he doesn't include a quad? That he rarely skates a clean long? That he has troubles with a second triple axel?
No. Because "skating is more than just the jumps." "It is not figure jumping, it is figure skating."
Only problem is, figure skating is a sport. And it is less of a sport in 2009 than it was a decade ago.

Well to be fair it's not like any of the men are really consistent.

Let's take Kozuka-he's landed that second triple axel in his long ONCE internationally. I suspect the issue isn't that he has problems with the triple axel, it's more how late the triple axel is.

Johnny and Joubert refuse to skate COP friendly. They are essentially 6.0 skaters.

Oda-has horrible programs and is not delivering in competition time... HE was amazing in practice apparently...

Evan-underrotates his triple axel and rarely gets credit for two and the quad hasn't been happening cleanly either.

So with all of this is why Chan with one triple axel is winning so much. Of course his scores are huh?

IF Daisuke can get healthy, and I really fear he might not, he should be able to wipe the floor with Chan. And that might save men's skating.

I do think the PCS gap with Chan and others will narrow. If it's Kozuka improving etc.

Quite frankly a part of me strongly suspects that the last thing the Japanese Federation actually wants is Kozuka winning the OGM next year... He's very young, way younger than Oda and Daisuke, and I'm sure the Japanese Federation is banking on having Kozuka in Sochi.

 

[sarukou]

it's interesting... the argument is the CoP is too much for the technical and not caring about the quality and it's also the CoP cares too much about the skating/quality and not enough about the technical

seems to me if both arguments are right then it's doing the best job that any judging system can.

How do you get that "it cares to much for the technical and not the quality"?
Everything I've said states completely the opposite.

As I've said, CoP puts a lot of emphasis on quality (GOE's) and skating (PCS). This is why skaters like Buttle and Chan are excelling. Everything they do is quality, and is rewarded greatly. They are both excellent skaters, somewhat lacking in the technical department.

A lot of people like that skating and quality elements are rewarded more now. Others, myself included, feel that these things are rewarded a little too much at the moment, and a balance of difficulty/risk vs. quality/presentation needs to be found.

The quality of skating has improved much under CoP, however the sport itself has suffered as a result. Skaters have little motivation to try risky elements, because quality is rewarded more than risk.

 

[Tonichelle]

surprisingly you're not the only one who complains about the CoP and not everyone's argument is the same as yours...

I wasn't replying just to you.

 

[Buttercup]

Chan will win both the World and Olympic title.
Why? He has played the system so perfectly; a system that rewards quality and skating ability over difficulty and risk. Does it matter that he doesn't include a quad? That he rarely skates a clean long? That he has troubles with a second triple axel? No. Because "skating is more than just the jumps." "It is not figure jumping, it is figure skating." Only problem is, figure skating is a sport. And it is less of a sport in 2009 than it was a decade ago.

I hope Chan doesn't win the OGM, at least not as he's skating now. Not because I have something against Patrick, but because I feel other skaters are better and more interesting to watch (yes, I know Patrick has good footwork. He still doesn't interest me).

As for the "it's not figure jumping" line we hear so often - really if someone doesn't want to do the harder jumps, why are they in singles? There's a discipline that's all about footwork and transitions and being musical: ice dance.

CoP is somewhat different in it's division. It is more like 40% actual completed elements (Technical), and 60% PCS and GOE's (presentation). Reverting to 50/50 would just make sense. Arguably in the 6.0, jumps were accounting for too much, which was part of the reason for the introduction of CoP. Now it has swung the other way –– in the CoP, presentation and quality are rewarded more than the jumps. Figure skating needs to find a balance between the two in order to truly succeed.

I think GOEs are being misused much more than PCS right now - it's like grade inflation in schools and academia, with competent being good and good being excellent. It just makes the scores less meaningful. I agree there must be a way to find better balance between the tech and the presentation. There's not enough incentive to push it technically, and for all that Johnny Weir has complained about being forced to put in a quad, I think it's pretty clear that less people are doing them - I'll take that as proof that the risk vs. reward on that is not sufficient. I want to see clean programs but I also want to see people trying to move figure skating forward. I miss the Plushenko vs. Yagudin years.

Johnny and Joubert refuse to skate COP friendly. They are essentially 6.0 skaters. So with all of this is why Chan with one triple axel is winning so much. Of course his scores are huh? IF Daisuke can get healthy, and I really fear he might not, he should be able to wipe the floor with Chan. And that might save men's skating.

Agreed about Johnny and Brian, though I think Joubert has put in a fair amount of work to make his programs more CoP friendly - particularly on spins. But yes, the system as set up right now is rewarding other things and IMO is leading figure skating in a very cookie-cutter direction. I don't mind an even playing field for the athletes, the crazy creative people and the subtle and understated skaters - but I think what Chan's scores this season are showing us is that it's not an even playing field anymore. I'm not sure about Daisuke - I really wanted to see what he came up with after leaving Morozov to get a better sense of the direction he's going in.

 

[Medusa]

I'm not sure about Daisuke - I really wanted to see what he came up with after leaving Morozov to get a better sense of the direction he's going in.

Well, the short program Dai had planned is incredible. It's also a Tango, but a very modern one. And where Chan's Tango is all neat, dapper, nice and well-behaved and in my opinion without the special Tango feeling (which isn't really his fault, he is after all just an innocent teenager - how can he realise the obscenity, the passion of Tango?), Dai's Tango is full of spunk and passion, playful gestures and sexy movements.

 

[Tonichelle]

Medusa - I love how you describe Tango... both Chan's and what a Tango is (that was a very poorly constructed thought. Must get some sleep now.)

 

[Buttercup]

Well, the short program Dai had planned is incredible. It's also a Tango, but a very modern one. And where Chan's Tango is all neat, dapper, nice and well-behaved and in my opinion without the special Tango feeling (which isn't really his fault, he is after all just an innocent teenager - how can he realise the obscenity, the passion of Tango?), Dai's Tango is full of spunk and passion, playful gestures and sexy movements.

Ok, thanks for the info... I'm not sure what I think of this. On the one hand, if Dai can really convey the feeling of a tango, it might be cool to watch. On ther other hand, I hear tango and it's an automatic not another one. What was his LP supposed to be?

His current choreographer is the person who did the Bachelorette EX for him last year, right? I really liked that program. :agree:

 

[Medusa]

Ok, thanks for the info... I'm not sure what I think of this. On the one hand, if Dai can really convey the feeling of a tango, it might be cool to watch. On ther other hand, I hear tango and it's an automatic not another one. What was his LP supposed to be?

His current choreographer is the person who did the Bachelorette EX for him last year, right? I really liked that program. :agree:

Dai's Tango

 

[Buttercup]

Medusa - thanks for the link. Yes, it's a good one. I wonder if he'll just keep the same programs for next season. The one thing I did notice is that while it's very well presented, I'm not sure how much Dai "feels" the music - it's more like he's projecting it than sensing it. Does that make sense? Where you the one who mentioned that connecting to the music seems less natural for him than for some of the other skaters?

Back to Patrick and the tango, I agree he needs to find more age-appropriate music. He's a young guy and he's doing all this serious grownup stuff instead of having fun.

 

[Medusa]

Medusa - thanks for the link. Yes, it's a good one. I wonder if he'll just keep the same programs for next season. The one thing I did notice is that while it's very well presented, I'm not sure how much Dai "feels" the music - it's more like he's projecting it than sensing it. Does that make sense? Where you the one who mentioned that connecting to the music seems less natural for him than for some of the other skaters?

Back to Patrick and the tango, I agree he needs to find more age-appropriate music. He's a young guy and he's doing all this serious grownup stuff instead of having fun.

Well, with him being "less connected" I meant less connected than Lambiel and Abbott (and Akiko Suzuki, Alexander Abt - there are really very few in my opinion), who are the two skaters where I have the feeling that they instinctively move their body with the music and not because the choreography tells them to. I still think that Dai is very very musical, with a great rhythmic feeling.

I have no problem with Chan doing a Tango. As I said, there are very few programs that really have the total musical power, this incredible it-factor to them. And especially with Spanish / Latin-American - themed stuff you rarely get the the complete perfect interpretation, not even in icedance.

Perhaps Chan will develop it later on, Stéphane had several Spanish-themed stuff during the beginning of his career, that wasn't overwhelming and suddenly, wham, there came Poèta, and then Carne cruda and than his new Tango, with Poèta perhaps being my favourite program of all time.

And as far as Tango feeling goes, Dai's short program is head and shoulders above every other Tango program this season (well, Suzuki's Libertango is perhaps even more special - but she is a girl and I am not interested in them that's why she doesn't count here). Verner, Chan, Abbott - their Tangos are good, with decent musicality, but really well-behaved and respectable (do you speak German? In German I would say that they are "bieder" and "brav"), none of them gives me the feeling that they got "it".

This is of course just my opinion.

By the way this was a good one:

As for the "it's not figure jumping" line we hear so often - really if someone doesn't want to do the harder jumps, why are they in singles? There's a discipline that's all about footwork and transitions and being musical: ice dance.

 

[Hsuhs]

IF Daisuke can get healthy, and I really fear he might not, he should be able to wipe the floor with Chan. And that might save men's skating.

What, Dai-chan as a Savior on a white horse?

 

[Buttercup]

Well, with him being "less connected" I meant less connected than Lambiel and Abbott (and Akiko Suzuki, Alexander Abt - there are really very few in my opinion), who are the two skaters where I have the feeling that they instinctively move their body with the music and not because the choreography tells them to. I still think that Dai is very very musical, with a great rhythmic feeling.

It's not that he's not musical, just less, I don't know, natural than some of the others you mentioned? Dai can interpret really well but it's like he has to tell himself what to do (and sure, it can be great to watch when he's on) instead of sensing it insticntively. I'm not sure I'm explaining myself well.

Perhaps Chan will develop it later on, Stéphane had several Spanish-themed stuff during the beginning of his career, that wasn't overwhelming and suddenly, wham, there came Poèta, and then Carne cruda and than his new Tango, with Poèta perhaps being my favourite program of all time.

See that's what I meant - I know the judges love them some Patrick Chan, but I think he's trying to skate much older than he actually is, instead of letting it develop naturally over time. He's 18 - doesn't he want to do something fun and young and more contemporary than Rachmaninoff?

The last few posts is just us ping-ponging, I wonder if everyone else is sleeping? * And as I type, Hsuhs cuts in, good to know someone else is here! Dai is not my choice for a savior, having repeatedly stated that I didn't like Swan Lake I guess that's no surprise... but at least he's original and has the technical stuff to go along with it, which goes a long way as far as I'm concerned. And he left Morozov so his footwork's bound to be more fun when he returns from rehab!

OT - sadly, my German is pretty non-existent, because I stupdily chose to take French in high school. I don't speak any French, either. At least I can usually make myself understood in English .