Free Dance

[npa]

Hmm, then why are you always posting in a style that suggests everyone should/must (since you used the word) V/M? And now S/B?

Please don't suggest that D/W fans only like them because of Charlie. Fans like them for their skating-Charlie may be good looking (to some, not all I realize) but that's not the reason I'm a fan. I like their skating and their potential for the future- not everyone will and that's why I love ice dance because there are so many great teams to root for and pick a favorite from.

I don't have anything to prove, do you?

I didnt say, that all must love S/B - i said, that S/B could be National champions soon - its not depending all will love them or no. And if i said, that S/B have better potecial its didnt mean, that all must love them - OK?
victoria90 just ignore us - good point, i will ignore
~tapdancer[Well, I was trying to be kind but this post has me scratching my head - you try to be kind because you allow other people to love other pair? Thanks!
Sorry guys, that i dont love D/W - its my mistake. I will try love them
And ignor my post, because i think -a lot aff teams are better, then D/W - sorry for this

 

[dorispulaski]

You needn't love D&W--

However, it is often worth 'trying' even if not succeeding, to try to understand what people like in one team over another though-I have found that the effort expands my understanding of the sport, for one thing. Additionally, I have learned to like skaters that I never liked before that way, so good on you for trying.

"Many" seems to me a huge exaggeration, though-last year in the world there were perhaps 5 or 6 teams better than D&W. This year, maybe 3 to 5. (And I'm counting injured couples that will to return to skating in that number) To me, neither number is 'many'.

However, comparing S&B and D&W is a good place to start understanding differences of opinion about skaters on the world stage, because it takes the nationalistic component out of the equation.

I detest seeing non-ballet programs skated as though they were ballet. I don't want to see excessive toe pointing in a swing, Charleston, or a tap dance. When someone skates to Let Yourself Go, I want to see them...let...themselves...go. So especially in an OD where the ISU instructions are not to do it like ballroom and to go with the social dancing feel of the original decades, I am puzzled to see S&B trying to ballet it up with endless extreme toe pointing and no getting in the mood. (all the foot is twizzle/twizzle/kick and point the toe. Vary it by making the kick backward and point the toe. (If you want to see a couple that 'gets' the music S&B are unable to get, check out the Kerrs OD). (That does not mean they shouldn't point their toes in the lifts to demonstrate they can do it.). Anyway, check out the Kerrs.

I want to see a Charleston danced with abandon and with Charleston details. And Meryl and Charlie have a lot of very good Charleston details in that program.

The original Happy Feet sequence in King of Jazz 1930
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=872BDE42E21D14FC

Other early Charleston movies
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=96D96DFF8E528BC9

To understand what there really is to love technically about Meryl and Charlie, here's Jonathan Guerreiro's review of their Cup of Russia free dance (you have to scroll down past the photos). In case you don't follow the juniors in ice dance, Jonathan and his partner Katia are the Russian junior ice dance champions, and they are bronze medallists in the JGPF.

http://www.ice-dance.com/events-results/reports/cupofrussia08/blog/

Today we really enjoyed Davis & White. They were on today. They skated the best we have ever seen them. What really amazed us was how technical they were!! On television it can sometimes be difficult to see lobes, edges, and speed. We really loved their spin, because it is just as difficult as it can get, and still they manage to execute it very well. Their circular step sequence was very edgy, and they didn't lose any speed thought it. We liked all of their lifts, especially their first combination lift, which was very innovative and well executed. The only part where I found them a little uncomfortable was the midline step sequence, where they began to slow down in the middle, and the lobes in the one-foot section were small compared to the ones they did in the circular. However, overall it was an excellent performance, and we really think they deserved they marks.

The whole review is worth reading because the competition at CoR was DomShabs, K&N, and Capellini/Lanotte.

A good deal of what is very special about D&W is only best appreciated live, and near the end of the season, when the speed and depth of edge is the best.

 

[npa]

I detest seeing non-ballet programs skated as though they were ballet. I don't want to see excessive toe pointing in a swing, Charleston, or a tap dance.

Thats why i said, that S/B have more potencial - because they have really ballet lines - look at there free leg position. This i what i want to see in ice dance - really classic lines and toe pointing. Really emotions, wich we could understand from body moves, and i really hate pantomima/
If we will compare Emili and Meryl toe poits i think we could see, that Meryl lines is not so good.
And S/B have best timing in ice dance now. And i like there OD - uts only IMHO. And i really dont understand - why i MUST try understand, that D/W is best? Guys, its ice dancing - we all have our favors
Thats why i think they COULD be USA champions soon

 

[cassieandcheetah]

Thats why i said, that S/B have more potencial - because they have really ballet lines - look at there free leg position. This i what i want to see in ice dance - really classic lines and toe pointing. Really emotions, wich we could understand from body moves, and i really hate pantomima/
If we will compare Emili and Meryl toe poits i think we could see, that Meryl lines is not so good.
And S/B have best timing in ice dance now. And i like there OD - uts only IMHO. And i really dont understand - why i MUST try understand, that D/W is best? Guys, its ice dancing - we all have our favors
Thats why i think they COULD be USA champions soon

I actually detest it. I hate S/B for always kicking their legs in unison and flaunting their matching lines. That I feel like is all they do and it gets boring after a while. I wish to see less kick in their programs next year, please.

 

[npa]

I actually detest it. I hate S/B for always kicking their legs in unison and flaunting their matching lines. That I feel like is all they do and it gets boring after a while. I wish to see less kick in their programs next year, please.

They must kicking their legs NOT in unison? :agree: Super!!!
In ice dance lins and unison not important in our days - what important?

 

[cassieandcheetah]

They must kicking their legs NOT in unison? :agree: Super!!!
In ice dance lins and unison not important in our days - what important?

It's obvious when one sees the CD's that Davis and White actually have the best matching lines compared to all the other teams in the US, including Samuelson and Bates. Why the need to do just matching lines in your other programs? OD's and FD's are supposed to be creative and dynamic, the opposite of what CD's require. No, I'm so sick and tired of S/B doing 10 upward kicks throughout the program? Why the need. I just don't understand.

 

[npa]

It's obvious when one sees the CD's that Davis and White actually have the best matching lines compared to all the other teams in the US, including Samuelson and Bates. Why the need to do just matching lines in your other programs? OD's and FD's are supposed to be creative and dynamic, the opposite of what CD's require. No, I'm so sick and tired of S/B doing 10 upward kicks throughout the program? Why the need. I just don't understand.

Interesting point - D/W have best matching lines in CD in USA? Who said this? Interesting what Linichuk thing about this

 

[cassieandcheetah]

Interesting point - D/W have best matching lines in CD in USA? Who said this? Interesting what Linichuk thing about this

I don't mind constructive criticism, but you're being downright disrespectful. I refuse to respond to anything you say. Please quit with the laughing out loud business.

 

[dorispulaski]

At the current moment the only teams Linichuk has at the elite senior level in the US are Belbin and Agosto (always criticized about toe point & matching lines) and Matthews and Gislason, AFAIR. Any others are not top 6 at US Nationals. Matthews is a great skater, but she and Gislason have a lot of work yet to do to excel in unison. However, I think what's being referred to here is specifically in the Viennese waltz at US Nationals, not the Finnstep at 4CC's. None of the North American teams trained that dance very much, and it would be a mistake to evaluate their relative abilities for all times based on it.

 

[dancemaster]

dorispulaski in your post 242
you make some interesting points,
in my view D/W at present are in a different league compared with S/B
D/W and V/M are more of a match for a discussion

 

[jcoates]

dorispulaski in your post 242
you make some interesting points,
in my view D/W at present are in a different league compared with S/B
D/W and V/M are more of a match for a discussion

Agreed. The relative similarity in their career arcs, shared training conditions, ages, etc. makes for a better comparison.

However, I think what cassieandcheetah was getting at in reference to D/W vs S/B is that D/W's various step sequences, linking footwork and lifts across all their programs have a bit more variety of position and hold. Guerreiro's commentary on the CoR FD makes similar points in comparing the top teams at the competition and what it takes to stand out.

Still what S/B do in their steps and lifts is very well done and deserves high marks both because of the difficulty and the clarity of their movements. They create pictures that are very easy to distinguish. It just becomes a bit stale at times over the course of a program, especially a free dance. In the future, I also hope their coaches plan on creating new lifts and making different stylistic choices for music and costumes as well. Otherwise, they could run the risk of getting into a rut and being perceived as one trick ponies. A bit of that happened to B/A and they are still trying to break out of it.

Still, all these teams are young and should be battling it out for some time (hopefully). It should be a lot of fun.

 

[dorispulaski]

It gets even more stale when you have 3 Netchaeva coached teams (S&B, the Hubbells, and Kriengkrairut & Giuletti-Schmitt) all skating in the same competition, one after the other, and looking very, very similar, particularly in the step sequences. Which is of course what we had at US Nationals this year.

I think that Netchaeva is a great junior coach, but her seniors should be looking for different choreographers and do what D&W and V&M did about their lifts. V&M, AFAIR, went to Cirque du Soleil trainers and D&W went to ballet teachers.

 

[rosee]

I think that Netchaeva is a great junior coach, but her seniors should be looking for different choreographers

I agree about the need of outside help, to have an outside view. I was looking at Samuelson & Bates past programs (there's a great collection here ) and no matter what they skate to, they do the sames transitions...

 

[npa]

It gets even more stale when you have 3 Netchaeva coached teams (S&B, the Hubbells, and Kriengkrairut & Giuletti-Schmitt) all skating in the same competition, one after the other, and looking very, very similar, particularly in the step sequences. Which is of course what we had at US Nationals this year.

I think that Netchaeva is a great junior coach, but her seniors should be looking for different choreographers and do what D&W and V&M did about their lifts. V&M, AFAIR, went to Cirque du Soleil trainers and D&W went to ballet teachers.

You know i think, that not a lot off teams shoe different step sequences in different programs. Its reall problems of today rules. - one time you create SQ on 4th level and you show it in all another programs.
I think V/M and D/W show the same SQ during past years. They have a lot off holds only in waltz positions or some time in tango positions. Maybe i am wrong.
I see that Nechaeva-Chesnichenko doing similar programs for there teams. But S/B FD for me was one of the favorite, but i think they made for Hubbels FD in this year very similar to S/B FD last year FD. But i love Appocaliptica FD from Hubbels at JWc 2008 - it was something new in ice dance.
When i talk, that S/B have better potencial i talk about Emily and Evan, not about there coaches. They have really good (best in North America) ballet school
As for Shpilband. Remember his progra,s for B/A and another studiens before 2008? B/A had the same lifts, steps from year to year. Look at his junor teams today - Shibutani show V/M steps from 2007 FD and transitions. its all happened, when coach have a lot off sketaers in his group.
From 1 point - Shpilband-Zueva is reall senior coaches, because there skaters won silvers at WCh and OG. But i dont see them, like coach of champions. When they have 1 step for the gold they start change there favors - like it was with B/A in last year and V/M in this year. Made a champion - its a hard work and this take all your time and all your minds - only in this case you will win gold at WCh with your skaters.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Although they do not score well in competitions, I believe the intensity that the Hubbells bring to their programs, are missing in all the others except for V/M.
Every other team looks like they did what the Choreographer told them to do and gave nothing or little of themselves. The above posts seem to be discussing choreography and not realy the teams.

 

[npa]

I think something new never have huge marks from the judges (maybe only T/D Bolero was an exception, even Dushene indians FD didnt have gold, when they skate it first time).
Last year Hubbles didnt have enough time for last year FD because of ingury, but it was sonething new for me in choreo, in ice dance art.
V/M didnt have enough time in this year too because of injury and recien not good marks for there innovated FD.
I agree, that we could discuss skaters and there choreograher and coaches/ IMHO - S/B have one of the best natural qualities for ice dance.

 

[dorispulaski]

Actually I far prefer the Hubbells of the Netchaeva teams. Unfortunately, once you have the tech down, you have to develop a style and a personality on the ice. Hubbells already have one. S&B, not yet.

And in dance, it is hard to disentangle the choreo from the teams, once the teams reach a certain standard of difficulty.

With lifts, are the great lifts of both V&M and D&W beyond the abilities of S&B? S&B have never tried anything more than generic lifts to date, so we don't know. There is a strength issue associated with the rapid positional transitions in lifts that both V&M and D&W use, and at this point you can't tell whether S&B don't do it because they have never tried it, or just because they can't. F&S, for example, can't-Massimo has been unable to be steady holding up Faiella while skating on one foot all season in their FD initial lift, and all their lifts are from the stock book of Lev4 lifts rather than doing anything a bit different. Lifts are a great place to show superior posture and extension, but S&B have been unable to take advantage of this to date.

In pair spins, S&B have definite, definite problems. They still have not mastered a pair spin of the generic variety, and fall or put a foot down as often as not, plus they have centering and low speed issues. Again, is this a training issue or a lack of strength? At this point we can't know, but we do know they had problems last year and still have problems this year, so we see that either they and their coach did not take immediate action to fix the problem...or that they were just not able to fix the problem..

They do a nice set of twizzles, but don't get a lot of forward speed with them yet. And they don't do them all on one foot, as the DomShabs do. I see them at much the same level as D&W on this skill, but with different issues.

On their footwork, they slow down considerably to get level 4. Many of the teams do this year, because the requirements for the levels are higher. D&W and V&M (when healthy) are definitely a long way ahead of them on this skill despite the S&B cute pointed feet. It is the speed and depth of edge, and size of lobes which counts most in footwork. And the F/W is the easiest place to show the character of the dance-D&W do, S&B do the same f/w for everything, so they never do. This may because of youth or poor choreography, or it may be because they find it difficult to learn new steps. We don't know yet.

S&B are like diamond buttons on denim pants-nicely polished, but not top drawer, and rather boring. What is most troubling is that they don't seem to work to make a bad dance more interesting over the season. Let's contrast what V&M and D&W both did with generic Shpilband choreo. D&W's Eleanor Rigby improved between each showing last year. This year their charleston has gotten more Charlestony every time out. V&M's UoC improved every time out, in both cases because of small changes. V&M's GGITS was better (especially in the transition between GGITS and Money) just between Nationals and 4CC's. S&B's Amazonic stayed the same all year-is this the coach, or a combination of the coach and the lack of creativity of the team?

So if you asked me which of the younger teams had more potential, I'd go with Hubbells and Shibutanis (already interesting to watch) on the PCS side, and Chock and Zuerlein on the technical side, rather than S&B.

S&B seem like nice kids, and I wish them well, and they may prove me wrong. They have good timing and pointed toes, so they have their strengths. But I'd rather watch Hubbells or NavBoms, as well as V&M and D&W.

 

[npa]

Yu remeber what lifts show in 18-19 D/W and V/M?
As for steps seqens - S/B is one of the not a lot off teams have level 4 for the SS in this season (D/W have 1 time in this season in international competitions at 4CC - will see what will happened at WCh with Technical specialist not from USA).
As we talk about lifts at all. I dont think, that D/W lifts we could compare with V/M, Kh/N amd Del/Sh lifts at all. This 3 teams show really innovated lifts. D/W show really strong lifts, but its all generic/ But they must have a lot off plus for the lifts qyality.
Spin - i agree D/W have some of the best spin in World in ice dance
Twizzles- they had problems with twizzles maybe in every competition this season/ His twizzles look out of control some time. She did twizzles in 2 times slower, than Charlie.
At all i cant understand - i really see personality in S/B and didnt see it in Meryl Dawis - what a problem? Its look like you hate S/B - maybe because you see they could be your favorite team?

 

[dorispulaski]

No-if I were to look at teams coming up that are favorites of mine, as I said, in the US, I like Hubbells & Shibutanis, and internationally, I like Riazanova & Guerreiro and Mysliveckova and Novak (if only they would be able to stand up). At this point, I find S&B irritating and a waste of natural talent, and because of that natural talent, a road block to teams I find far more interesting to watch.

You have to realize that I like to see the balletic stuff more in pairs than in dance, so to me, S&B's particular strength is a weakness, and leads to an inability to express the character of the dance in OD's, which is a pet peeve of mine. I am always happiest with teams with great OD's that really knock it out of the park with respect to showing character, or who at the very least seem to be trying to show character.

And the reason I picked D&W and V&M to discuss realative skills is because this thread is about teams that competed at 4CC's. I did bring in F&S, because I wanted an example of a team with bad lifts who skates at top levels. I said explicitly that we don't know whether S&B will have better lifts later. I don't know if it's a lack of initiative to go out and find someone to teach them better lifts, or a strength issue.

And DomShabs because their one foot twizzles are really good, and I wanted an example of what really good is

This is S&B's second year as seniors. I expected to see an improvement, and they have much the same strengths & weaknesses they had last year. So they certainly are no V&M, who were stellar in their second year.

Yes, I think K&N have better lifts than D&W, or for that matter, than any other team. No I don't think D&W's lifts this year are generic. Last year, yes, this year, no.

Yes, I think K&N (and Delschoes, if they are able to compete) will absolutely place ahead of D&W at worlds, particularly as the paso and not the waltz was chosen for the CD-K&N are so different in height that it is difficult for them to do as good a waltz as they will do a paso. I expect both K&N and Delschoes to go into the OD with at least a 2 point advantage on D&W, who I expect to have similar marks to F&S. P&B haven't done a good paso in 2 tries, so I expect them to lag both F&S and D&W, and I expect S&B to be duking it out with Rubleva/Shefer for 12th to 10th. Who knows if B&A, DomShabs, and V&M will be there. None of them are in good shape, and none have had much time to train the paso this year. If there, they will be very good, but I do not expect them to outscore DelSchoes, if DelSchoes are there. it is Isabelle's shoulder, AFAIR, that is damaged, so I expect their paso will be unaffected.

Your assertion was that S&B have the most potential of younger dancers, and so far, I see no evidence of them having superior potential overall, and pointed out why. Like the others, they have their strengths and their weaknesses.

 

[all that]

npa -- Can you please stop with the silly spellings and just spell correctly? I don't know why you pretend you don't know English -- I know you do because I've seen you write correctly (sometimes as npa, sometimes as pani, sometimes as cleoc, etc -- I don't know why you pretend to be different people either. Ugh.) Plus, you can understand all the posts, so you know how to read English. What is the deal with the crazy misspellings??

I get so irritated every time I see you use or because your posts are so difficult to read that I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, funny, or just plain stupid.