Mens SP

[bekalc]

Figure skating is not just athletic contests, fortunately. It is equally weighted among technical challenges and artistic appeals. I hope this is still the case.

It is apparent that after his performance, even Joubert himself was visibly disappointed.

And Joubert should be disappointed it wasn't his best skate. He would have had a bit of a cushion if he had landed that 4/3.

But it's one of those cases of where even if the choregraphy could be better, I think that Joubert's program does have artistic merit. And he has good basic skating skills as well to back that up. Yes, I want harder choregraphy. But I will take harder jumps over harder choregraphy.

 

[antmanb]

Is this in reference to Lysacek? Because AFAIK, with GOEs taken into account, his combination scored higher than Joubert's I believe it was in the LA Times but can't check right now.

No it wasn't a reference to Lysacek it was simply a mathematical observation on the IMO faulty scoring. From memory the base mark for a 3Lz+3T is 10 (6+4). Joubert got more than 10 points for that faulty combination.

My observation is - either the GOE was not awarded correctly by the judges which left him getting more points than an adequate 3Lz+3T, or the quad is given too much value because there is no way that a quad/triple combination with that many errors should score higher than a clean 3/3.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

But I'd also rather see a little more simple choregraphy and harder jumps than harder choregraphy and less jumps. If you are going to make a "it's a competition argument." I don't want transitions at the expense of quads and triple axels. You don't see a lot of people falling on transitions or their choregraphy.

That's just not a valid argument - people do actually fall on transitions and choreography and it might not be as often as people do on quads but that's because there are completely different skills in use for both - people by and large don't leave the ice with both feet when they execute choreogprahy or transitions. It's comparing completely different skill sets.

Ant

 

[Medusa]

No it wasn't a reference to Lysacek it was simply a mathematical observation on the IMO faulty scoring. From memory the base mark for a 3Lz+3T is 10 (6+4). Joubert got more than 10 points for that faulty combination.

My observation is - either the GOE was not awarded correctly by the judges which left him getting more points than an adequate 3Lz+3T, or the quad is given too much value because there is no way that a quad/triple combination with that many errors should score higher than a clean 3/3.

Honestly - I don't think it's wrong. It's a huge risk to do the Quad, Joubert didn't fall nor underrotate. Therefore he got the base value for the risk he took. I think it's fair. And it's always that way in figure skating. If you do a 3A and step-out - like Verner - you get about 6 points. If you do a 2A, even with +2 GOE, you won't get more than 5.5 points. Or do you think that a step-out 3A should be worth less than a 2A?

The result should have been that Joubert's PCS shouldn't have been this high, because he wasn't clean. He got the same PCS with clean performances, that shouldn't be that way.

 

[figuristka]

I think perhaps the judges get caught up in the performance, what i mean is both Brian and Evan really skated with alot of energy and determination. They really went for it and held nothing back.I appreciate that too. Patrick skated next to perfect, perhaps visably not with as much fire, or excitement but an inner confidence, with control and precision. I know the judges are only human but there is a huge problem when they give both Brian and Evan higher marks in
TR Transitions
CH Choreography
IN Interpretation

Can argue about the Skating skills and Performance/Execution but its more understandable after the high performance level of Brian and Evan.

 

[bekalc]

That's just not a valid argument - people do actually fall on transitions and choreography and it might not be as often as people do on quads but that's because there are completely different skills in use for both - people by and large don't leave the ice with both feet when they execute choreogprahy or transitions. It's comparing completely different skill sets.

Ant

You don't see people falling on transitions and choregraphy that often Ant. This suggest it just doesn't carry the same risk. How many times have we seen Chan fall on his choregraphy, and how many times have we seen Joubert fall on his Quad?

I have no doubt that hard choregraphy is darn hard. But in men's singles once again I'd rather see harder jumps.. Frankly in the end, I want the best balance of hard jumps and choregraphy. In someways Joubert and Chan represent opposite ends of the extreme.

IN Interpretation

In the case of interpertation does Chan really deserve that much of higher marks just because he has harder choregraphy. I've heard complaints that some of Chan's moves seem to be garned at points... There can be an argument that a high performance can get higher interpertation marks. But I agree about the transitions/choregraphy thing, Chan deserves higher marks for that than Joubert/Evan.

 

[Alicja]

You don't see people falling on transitions and choregraphy that often Ant. This suggest it just doesn't carry the same risk. How many times have we seen Chan fall on his choregraphy, and how many times have we seen Joubert fall on his Quad?

How do you define choreography?

 

[Tinymavy15]

I think that the main probelm here is the consistebncy in judging. If Brian and the other quad-landing-men always got good scores for thier quadsm, there would not be an issue, but how many times have we seen Brian and others land a shaky quad and over taken easily by a non-quad lander. last year's men's event was a case in point. It seems that the judges wanted to gove joubert the scores he deserved last season, year i know he fell on the lutz last season, but that -1 for the music was insane. Is this thier way of making amends?

I agree that the quad need to be worth more. But right now it is not. BTW, was Brian's combo even ratified? was that a real combo or was it ruled a sequence?

 

[BBI*CEO]

Just a theory - could it be that by rewarding Joubert the judges wanted to send a message to the skaters that it is better to risk the quad and stop playing it safe with clean 3A programs?

 

[Medusa]

I agree that the quad need to be worth more. But right now it is not. BTW, was Brian's combo even ratified? was that a real combo or was it ruled a sequence?

It was a combo. If it had been a sequence, we would have seen that in the TES for sure, because you are not allowed to do a sequence and he would have only gotten the points for a botched solo Quad.

 

[Mathman]

Figure skating is not just athletic contests, fortunately. It is equally weighted among technical challenges and artistic appeals. I hope this is still the case.

Yes and no. Under the new judging system the weights are 70% technical, 30% artistic.

On the tech side are the base values for individual elements, the GOEs for individual elements, and the two program components Skating Skills and transitions.

On tthe presentation side are Presentation/Execution, Choreography, and Interpretation.

In practice, I think the weighting is more like 80-20 because P&E, CH, and INT pretty much just track SS.

It is apparent that after his performance, even Joubert himself was visibly disappointed.

I agree. Joubert was visibly disappointed because he thought he had blown the competition by flubbing his combo.

I don't, however, believe that he was musing to himself, "Oh dear, I think the judges might not like my choreography."

Yes, I want harder choregraphy.

Better choreography. I think the ideal is harder technical elemetns, better artisty.

 

[sillylionlove]

First...Dodhiyel...great post and I agree with you.

Second...at this point I have a who cares attitude...if the US gets three spots, Japan get three spots, Canada gets three spots and France gets three spots...then I guess everyone will be happy!!!

You can be a world champion and suck the next year (see Meissner, Ando). Let's wait and see what next year brings!! I suspect that things will be much different!!

 

[bekalc]

Just a theory - could it be that by rewarding Joubert the judges wanted to send a message to the skaters that it is better to risk the quad and stop playing it safe with clean 3A programs?

And good for them for doing so.

 

[antmanb]

Honestly - I don't think it's wrong. It's a huge risk to do the Quad, Joubert didn't fall nor underrotate.

It isn't a huge risk to do a quad if you land it with more or less the same consistency in practice as your other jumps. Any jump is a risk because so much can go wrong with them. If it is a risk - it's the balance between getting the highest points for executing the hardest jump compared with the penalty for not executing it properly. I'm all for Brian getting those points when he actually lands it no he didn't fall - that's about teh only thing he didn't do. He did under-rotate the triple toe - not enough for it to be downgraded. Look at the GEO criteria (which i finally managed to find on the ISU site! http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=934):

The guidelines say for the combination jump:

Stepping out on the landing of the second jump -2 - GOE He clearly, undeniably stepped out of the second jump in the combination. That cannot be questioned - not a single judge should have awarded anything greater than -2, clearly they did as he only lost 2.2 points for the combo.

One/both jumps under-rotated up to 1/4 rev (not downgraded) -1 or -2.
More subjective but on the Eurosport footage Chris Howarth commneted that he wanted to look at the triple toe to see if he got the rotation - the slow motion clearly showed he was less 1/4 rev short but he was short.

Touch down with one hand or free foot -1

Again - undeniably he touched down with his hand on teh landing of the quad.

Weak landing (on toe, wrong edge) -1
He landed the quad on the toe hence the fre hand down, and he landed the triple toe on teh wrong edge - that caused the step out.

I faul to see why a jump combination with that many errors should come up still scoring more than the base value of any of the harder 3/3 cmobination.

Therefore he got the base value for the risk he took. I think it's fair. And it's always that way in figure skating. If you do a 3A and step-out - like Verner - you get about 6 points. If you do a 2A, even with +2 GOE, you won't get more than 5.5 points. Or do you think that a step-out 3A should be worth less than a 2A?

No of course I don't think a step out on a triple axel should be worth less than a 2A - did i say that anywhere? That is no comparison to what I am saying. The quad combination had certainly 2 errors and maybe as many as four errors with it and it still got more points that a jump only 2 levels of difficulty lower. The correct cmoparison with a triple axel might be more along the lines of - should a triple axel with a hand down, step out, slight under-rotation (not enough to downgrade) and landing on the wrong edge get a skater more points than a 0 GOE triple flip?

Ant

 

[i love to skate]

Just a theory - could it be that by rewarding Joubert the judges wanted to send a message to the skaters that it is better to risk the quad and stop playing it safe with clean 3A programs?

No I don't think so. And it rarely pays off to try the quad unless you land it. I think what people are having the hardest time wrapping their heads around are the PCS scores. I don't understand at all. Oh well, on to the Long tonight!

 

[bekalc]

Joubert lost two points on his quad. Basically one point for his hand down, and the other for his triple with the step out.) I suspect the judges don't put -3 on quads for mistakes like Jouberts because that would lead to minus -4 which isn't fair either.

I could see maybe -3 off of GOE for what Joubert did. I agree that Joubert's PCS scores were high versus Chan's.

 

[Medusa]

No I don't think so. And it rarely pays off to try the quad unless you land it. I think what people are having the hardest time wrapping their heads around are the PCS scores. I don't understand at all. Oh well, on to the Long tonight!

Nobody gets those PCS scores, it's quite muddy. And I really can't wrap my head around the Verner thing, he got high PCS all season long for immensely botched performances (more PCS than Joubert got for his botched performances!!!). Now he actually lands highly difficult jumps - and the PCS took a dive!

Well, yes. On to the LP.

 

[antmanb]

You don't see people falling on transitions and choregraphy that often Ant. This suggest it just doesn't carry the same risk. How many times have we seen Chan fall on his choregraphy, and how many times have we seen Joubert fall on his Quad?

This isn't a Joubert versus Chan argument for me - i haven't watched Chan's SP from worlds yet but I've seen his GP performances (not his 4CC) and i was left pretty cold and didn't understand why people were talking up his presentation skills.

Again - you can't compare the skill set out jumping and actually skating. Are you really advocating that skating should become more about falling than not?

I have no doubt that hard choregraphy is darn hard. But in men's singles once again I'd rather see harder jumps.. Frankly in the end, I want the best balance of hard jumps and choregraphy. In someways Joubert and Chan represent opposite ends of the extreme.

Don't you think the system tries to get there now? Jumps are more heavily weighted than any other element or category in a program. Would making the quad worth more really help the balance between hard choreography and hard jumps? I personally don't think they would - if the quad is worth more than skaters like Joubert would definitely focus on the quad and have even less choreography then they would otherwise try.


Ant

 

[antmanb]

I agree that the quad need to be worth more. But right now it is not. BTW, was Brian's combo even ratified? was that a real combo or was it ruled a sequence?

Why would it be a seuqence- he put a hand down and had no movements or steps between the two jumps - are you thinking of Ponsero who did a double three on the landing of his quad?

Ant

 

[museksk8r]

Nobody gets those PCS scores, it's quite muddy. And I really can't wrap my head around the Verner thing, he got high PCS all season long for immensely botched performances (more PCS than Joubert got for his botched performances!!!). Now he actually lands highly difficult jumps - and the PCS took a dive!

Well, yes. On to the LP.

I know! Part of me is baffled by the scoring of Verner and then the other part of me thinks it's because his performance in the Europeans LP swayed the judges away from him momentum-wise. They feel they can't depend on him, and his scores are taking a hit as a result, and that's a real shame. He should be rewarded for skating well at this SP, not based on failed momentum from past performances.