Plushenko will honour us with his presence in 2010! | Page 14 | Golden Skate

Plushenko will honour us with his presence in 2010!

I love mathematics but this is headache when you watch fs ..once upon a time it looked so easy:cool:..someone fell and oops:p, he/she was not the winner:laugh:..so you could concentrate on other things, costumes, hair etc :p
at that time the most difficult case for me was to get who would win when the winner of sp was not the winner of Lp, etc.
How the judges think all this in so little time?
Am I out of universe?I thought until now that axel had 7.5 base value:unsure:
 
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seniorita said:
Am I out of universe?I thought until now that axel had 7.5 base value:unsure:
Click to expand...

They changed the values last year. A lot of people (Brian Joubert for one) thought that the hardest elements, like triple Axels and quads, were undervalued, allowing weakings to cruise under the radar and win with a bunch of wimpy spins and moves in the field.

In response, the ISU put ip the value of triple Axels from 7.5 to 8.2. A quad toe went up from 9.0 to 9.8, a quad Salchow went up from 9.5 to 10.3, etc. :cool:
 
i remember the fuss with skaters about the quad but somehow i never read that the same happened about the 3axel, thank you:)You really are the MathematicMan:p
what is funny about the new system is that there is no roof on marks, in ten years from now they may give 100 points for quad and raise everything respectively and the same problems will occur:cool:
 
Blades of Passion said:
Yes the zayak rule has been in place, but skaters were never hammered in the past if they accidentally did too many jumps. I remember Yagudin doing 2 Quad Toes, 2 Triple Axels, and 2 Triple Toes in one program. The judges didn't mark him down simply because he "should have" just done a double toe instead of a triple toe.
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How do you know that he wasn't marked down? That was under 6.0, you can't categorically say anything authoritative about what happened there unless you are one of the judges. Under 6.0 any repeated element was supposed to not count (like falls and two footed jumps etc), but then 6.0 was the complete opposite of COP in that it wasn't a cumulative scoring system so it makes no sense to look at infractions under the two systems. COP is about racking up points and 6.0 was about taking points away.

Blades of Passion said:
It's closer to reality to mark the extra jump as a double rather than say the entire jumping pass didn't exist at all. The rule as it is written under CoP is akin to a badly written computer program script that causes inadvertent flaws in the program. The intended purpose of the rule is being distorted.
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I couldn't disagree more. If the rule, which has been accepted, is "if you do a fourth combo then nothing in that combo will count", that is the reality. Knocking off a rotation for the sake of it is even more far fetched than the phantom sequence MM pointed out earlier.

Blades of Passion said:
Also, it should also be noted that if a skater does a Triple jump they have also done a double jump. If you rotated 3 times, you also rotated twice.
Click to expand...

:rofl: :rofl: um...ok.

Ant
 
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Mathman said:
I think I am with Blades of Passion on this one. The rules are the rules, but long standing does not shield a rule from criticism. A rule is a bad one if it is arbitrary and capricious and if it runs counter to the Big Rule -- the athlete who performs the best ought to win.

The problem with the rule decreeing no credit at all for an extra sequence lies in the severity of the punishment, compared with other Zayak violations.

Skater A begins his program with 3F, 3Lz, 3F, Lz. This skater already has two Zayak violations. His penalty is, he loses 20% of the value of the second flip and 20% of the value of the second Lutz -- a total of 2.3 points.

Skater B does 3F+2T, 3Lz+2T, 3F+2Lo, 3Lz+3T. This skater's last combo is a Zayak violation. The penalty is 100% of the value of both of his last two jumps -- a total of 10 points.

Is this a good rule?
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The problem with the rule is that is it inconsistent. The phantom sequence rule is the most stupid rule the ISU came up with. The Zayak rule under 6.0 was simple, but I suppose we will never really know if the judges ever paid much attention to it. My opinion is - if you break the Zayak rule you should get 0 points for the element. If you don't do a combo on the end of a repeated triple - 0 points. If you do a combo on the back of a third repeated triple - 0 points.

Ant
 
Mathman said:
PS. Speaking of "reality," what Oda actually did was

4T+3T
3A
3S+3T
3A
3Lo
3F+2T+2Lo
3Lz
2A

In "the world of rules" (to quote BoP on another thread :laugh:), Oda did four combos/sequences. How many did he do in the real world?
Click to expand...

My preference for the rules would be that in this case the secnod triple axel get 0 points. Just out of interest what the point difference have been if that had happened?

Ant
 
antmanb said:
My preference for the rules would be that in this case the secnod triple axel get 0 points.
Click to expand...

That makes sense to me, too. Put the penalty on the element that is in violation of the rules, not on some later element.

Just out of interest what the point difference have been if that had happened?
Click to expand...

In Oda's case, the points would have been about the same. Base value for a triple Axel is 8.2. Base value for a 3F+2T+2Lo is 8.3.

After penalty, second half bonus and GOE, Oda got 8.42 for his second triple Axel. He probably would have got about 10 points for his flip combo in all.

Although the Zayak rules have been in place since before the CoP, the actual CoP penalties for Zayak violations are subject to change. At 2005 Worlds, Irina Slutskaya did 3Lz+3Lo, 3S+2Lo+2T, 3Lo, and 3Lo+2Lo. (What can I say? -- the girl was on fire! :) )

The third 3Lo was a Zayak violation, so she lost credit for that jump but still got credit for the 2Lo that was the second jump of the combination. Her total score for the "combo" was 1.5, the value of the double loop.

The next year they changed the rules so that she would have got 0 fior the whole element.

By the way, I presume she could have done a fourth combo and got full credit for it, since her third combo was not scored as a combo but rather as a solo 2Lo.
 
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What are the Rules for miscalculation?

I remember that the results had Oda win over that young Canadian skater one year in a GP, but afterwards it was discovered that the scores for the two were not correct, and the Canadian should have won. (Being a gentleman, the Canadian did not protest.)
 
Joesitz said:
What are the Rules for miscalculation?

I remember that the results had Oda win over that young Canadian skater one year in a GP, but afterwards it was discovered that the scores for the two were not correct, and the Canadian should have won. (Being a gentleman, the Canadian did not protest.)
Click to expand...

I seem to recall something about a miscalculation for Oda but i didn't think it was the difference between winning and silver. Are you sure?

Ant
 
antmanb said:
I seem to recall something about a miscalculation for Oda but i didn't think it was the difference between winning and silver. Are you sure? Ant
Click to expand...
I was hoping someone would remember the competition, too. It was all about gold and Oda was in the K&C crying with happiness for his first gold medal. The Canadian did not protest.
 
Joesitz said:
That was the one, with Mabee being informed of the wrong calculation but didn't want to ruin Oda's happiness. It was Crhis' finest moment in his conduct as well as in his skating.
Click to expand...

Definitely agree with you there. It would have been Chris's first Gold Medal as well, I think. Even 2nd, I think, was probably one of his best results!
 
That is great news, if he can be competitive again, why not come back?It will be interesting next season if he will, Plusenko was a different class of a skater.
 
Joesitz said:
I was hoping someone would remember the competition, too. It was all about gold and Oda was in the K&C crying with happiness for his first gold medal. The Canadian did not protest.
Click to expand...

This was definitely not 4CC 2006. After that competition Nobunari did not cry in the K&C - he just said "Aaah, I'm so angry at myself." And then he was hauled off K&C and given oxygen (skating on the altitude din't agree with him very well, and he hurt his hip quite badly).

A year later (early 2007), during a TV show "Gakkou ni Ikou!" he was asked what was the most frustrating/sad moment in his career. He said it was that Four Continent Championships and that he could not forgive himself for falling on the axel and stopping in the middle of the program. He spoke with a broken voice and hid his face under his cap, and the show host asked if he needed time to cry (as a joke). Nobunari replied "No, I'm fine now." But then the camera zoomed in on his face an he really had tears in his eyes. He definitely wasn't happy about winning.

I think you are mistaking this event with NHK 2005 - it was in that event that Nobunari got his first senior Gold medal (and indeed he put on quite a show in the K&C). There were no Canadians in the medal contention, though, and no scoring controversy, either (that would be the Japanese Nationals, where Nobunari was stripped of the Gold medal he has already received and a second medal ceremony was held).

I don't remember there being any controversy about the final score at 4CC - and I remember such things quite well. I tried to google the information about this event and checked out the articles I saved back in 2006, but I found nothing. The controversy was that Nobunari stopped in the middle of the program and just skated around for a long while, missing his spin and a fair bit of choreography. Still, he got quite decent PCS, and some people were snarking that he got a pity PCS gift, like Zhangs at Olympics 2006.

He didn't won the LP, though (Mabee did) - he won only thanks to his big lead from SP.
 
Back to Plushy. The questions remain:

1. Is his Tech today as good as it was in 2006?

2. Is he practicing to increase his Tech from 2006?

3. Is he now up to the level of his adversaries?

It's not about what he was, it is about his abilities now in keeping the determinants: Joubert, Lysacek, and who else among the upstarts down on the lower steps of the podium.
 
Joesitz said:
Back to Plushy. The questions remain:

1. Is his Tech today as good as it was in 2006?
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone will know this until he skates a competitive programme. What't eh earliest that will be? I'm guessing Cup of Russia 2009. The youtube clips available in this thread show him having mixed success with quad toe-loops and triple axel combinations.

Joesitz said:
2. Is he practicing to increase his Tech from 2006?
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Again the youtube clips in this thread show him working on footwork with loops in, and getting up to scratch with the "new" code (new since his last competition in 2006). I would assume that he'll be working back towards his 2 quad, 7 triple programs of old jump wise and i don't think anyone else in that time has upped the ante jump wise consistently so i'm not sur more jumps is a risk worth taking, both in terms of injury in training them, and risking them in competition.

Joesitz said:
3. Is he now up to the level of his adversaries?

It's not about what he was, it is about his abilities now in keeping the determinants: Joubert, Lysacek, and who else among the upstarts down on the lower steps of the podium.
Click to expand...

Again I don't think it will be possible to tell that until we see everyone compete next season. It would be just as foolish to assume that the skaters at 2009 worlds won't be at least working towards improvements for the 2009-2010 season as it would to base Pluschenko's ability on what he was doing in 2006. It will certainly be an interesting season if Pluschenko does come back, not least because there are so many men in the hunt for a medal come Vancouver. I can't wait to see how this competition pans out!

Ant
 
^^^
All three questions answered perfectly. I was just trying to wake up those fans who are still looking at 2006 for inspiraton .

His style will be the same, and he will be judged with high PCS.

his spins will be the same, but his simple spins will be judged with high GoEs.

It's his jumps that will be judged the most. If he lands them successfully all the other parts of the CoP will fall into place. JMO.
 
Joesitz said:
^^^
I was just trying to wake up those fans who are still looking at 2006 for inspiraton .
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not looking in 2006 for inspiration, he has skated more memorable times in front of audience since then. it just happens that in 2006 was his last competition to compare with:)

Joesitz said:
^^^His style will be the same, and he will be judged with high PCS..
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Which top skater of 2006 has changed his style by now?Just curious..:cool:

Joesitz said:
^^^
It's his jumps that will be judged the most. If he lands them successfully all the other parts of the CoP will fall into place. JMO.
Click to expand...

i thought this was pretty much what was happening also now.:p
 
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