Olympics/World Championships Skating Requirements

[Tonichelle]

who is "too old" to skate? if they still have it and measure up chances are they are in the running to make the team...

 

[i love to skate]

There can be a degree of fairness if a so called "World Championship" makes every effort to open the competition to the very best possible skaters. Like they do at Tennis Grand Slams. Who says that skating has to continue with such an outdated and unfair system that rewards medocrity and punishes excellence.
Why are so many here afraid to consider change. This is just a discussion. The system won't change. BTW, this sytem is very good for Joannie because it keeps several skaters with tthe potential to place above her out of the competition. What is wrong with having as many of the best skaters competing and not only two thirds of them competing for a championship? If you think I say this to give USA a better chance you totally miss my point.

The reasons I don't like the idea of altering the World system are:
-I don't like cutting out the small federations who have skaters who dream of competing against the best in the world, just like the bigger federations. I don't think those skaters should lose their shot or thrill of a lifetime.
-I also think a skater should "earn" the right to compete for their country. If you can't make it out of your National Championships then tough luck.
-I don't want a World Championship or Olympics that consisits of skaters from only two or three different countries.
-Skating has a Grand Prix Final already that allows more than three skaters from one country.
-You never know what country the next amazing skater may come from. Was Korea considered a skating hot bed capable of producing a World Champion?

In all fairness you are/were against the new judging system. Why were you afraid or dislike change in that area?

Why bring Joannie into this? Who are the skaters that can place above her that are being left out? Joannie has proven herself to be a world contender this year and has shown that she can compete alongside anyone. She is very focused on herself and her training and I don't think is really thinking or worrying about anyone else.

 

[janetfan]

Maybe a rethorical question, because I thought it might have been clear along the lines.
I thought we were rude Euros.

It was sort of a rhetorical question. Maybe it depended on whether you answered or not.
Actually, I was curious how you might answer. The term "Old Europe" was used here a few years ago by a not so very favorite of mine, former US secretary of defense Donald Rumsfeld. He was having all kinds of trouble with the French and Germans getting then to support his war effort against Saddam.
Unfortunately, "New Europe" backed him along with England and Italy and the rest as they say is history.
BTW, I have been to Germany many times and had a business partner in Karlsruhe for ten years. I used to attend the Frankfort Music Messe for years and after the show woud spend some time visiting other parts of Germany - or other neigboring countries.
My German friend used to make me laugh so hard when he would talk about Austrians - he did not like them or their "Old World Manners." Maybe that is where part of my last message was derived from.
Sorry this is so off topic - but maybe it is an improvement over my posts about adding 16 Japanese Ladies and 12 American Ladies to the Olympics.

 

[janetfan]

who is "too old" to skate? if they still have it and measure up chances are they are in the running to make the team...

Oh come on - Fumie will be close to 50 by the next olympics. She lies about her age

 

[Tonichelle]

Fumie isn't the best Japan has technically. that's the reason she's being passed up by others, not because she's "too old"... seems to be a bit of a double standard you have...

 

[janetfan]

The reasons I don't like the idea of altering the World system are:
-I don't like cutting out the small federations who have skaters who dream of competing against the best in the world, just like the bigger federations. I don't think those skaters should lose their shot or thrill of a lifetime.
-I also think a skater should "earn" the right to compete for their country. If you can't make it out of your National Championships then tough luck.
-I don't want a World Championship or Olympics that consisits of skaters from only two or three different countries.
-Skating has a Grand Prix Final already that allows more than three skaters from one country.
-You never know what country the next amazing skater may come from. Was Korea considered a skating hot bed capable of producing a World Champion?

In all fairness you are/were against the new judging system. Why were you afraid or dislike change in that area?

Why bring Joannie into this? Who are the skaters that can place above her that are being left out? Joannie has proven herself to be a world contender this year and has shown that she can compete alongside anyone. She is very focused on herself and her training and I don't think is really thinking or worrying about anyone else.

I really enjoyed your reply. Cant answer all of it (have to go) but would say from Japan certainly if either Miki, Yukari or Fumie are left of the team that is a break for the other top skaters. We will see at Skate Canada if Caroline has closed the four point gap with Joannie from WTT. A Frank Carroll trained Mirai may be like a rocket this year. And a clean Alissa and Rachael can do well. These are all skaters that might not be competing who could beat Joannie on a given night. I mentioned her because she has a good shot at a medal and without any doubt there are a few skaters who could beat her in Vancouver but they wont be there to get the chance. I am not against Joannie and like her skating and also admire the type of girl she appears to be.

Fumie isn't the best Japan has technically. that's the reason she's being passed up by others, not because she's "too old"... seems to be a bit of a double standard you have...

I wasn't aware of that. Who else have I said is too old?
and it should have been obvious that I was kidding. Is there a double standard for that ar GS?

 

[Tonichelle]

I guess I'm confused. your earlier posts were about how some of the best skaters are being left out of the major competitions because their federations are allowed only up to three skaters/teams... then you brought up the problem of skaters that are 'too old' not being allowed to compete... then there's a mention of Fumie being 50...

all I said was that Fumie might not make the team not because of age, but because her technical ability isn't caught up to what the others in her country can do. I say that as a fan, I love watching Fumie even if I don't think she's the best to come from her country - now.

 

[janetfan]

I guess I'm confused. your earlier posts were about how some of the best skaters are being left out of the major competitions because their federations are allowed only up to three skaters/teams... then you brought up the problem of skaters that are 'too old' not being allowed to compete... then there's a mention of Fumie being 50...

all I said was that Fumie might not make the team not because of age, but because her technical ability isn't caught up to what the others in her country can do. I say that as a fan, I love watching Fumie even if I don't think she's the best to come from her country - now.

Thanks toni. I said it earlier with Fumie and Yukari in mind (maybe it was more of a single standard type of double standard. ) But whether for men or women the clock does run down on a skater's competitive career. I could have easily said the same thing about Johnny or Evan or almost any skater in their 20's.
It was really meant that the fours years bewteen Olympics can be a long time for skaters to carry on. Fumie is a marvel to me - I think she is 28 and I would not be surprised in the least if she makes the Japanese Natl team this year. But four years from now might be much tougher. The same could be true for many of the guys.

 

[janetfan]

She represented Greece at 2009 Worlds in Los Angeles. In the short program she did a nice double Axel, but unfortunately popped both her intended Lutz combo and her loop into singles. It must have been Caroline's dagger eyes boring into her back that made her stumble.

Maria did not qualify for the free skate and finished 47th overall, so Caroline got her revenge.

i know you are rightfully dishing it back at me and that is fine if not wildly overstated. (Caroline actually put some wax on Maria's blades causing her to slip all over the ice.) There were no dagger eyes
I would add ....that we were denied seeing many of the best skaters in the world......at... ...Worlds ....so many lesser skaters could have their chance .....and Cinquanta would keep their federations vote.

 

[psycho]

.He had stated more than once publicly that he dislikes certain skaters and that he is resentful of their success.

Examples? I want quotes and publications, since this is " on record".

I've read and watched more interviews with Weir than I am willing to admit, and never once did I get this from him.

So back it up please.

 

[seniorita]

Truth to tell, I doubt if Caroline has ever heard of Maria Papasotiriou.

Truth to tell, half and more of the board has never heard of her
Thank you MM for giving 15 minutes of fame to my national lady, even if she was 47th.

 

[antmanb]

I am not sure if I know what the moral of the story is either. I do see an injustice when girls who have practiced and worked so hard have to miss a competition full of so many skaters who are not close to being in their class. Japan is a good example. Should either Fumie or Yukari be watching a skater from "wherever" competing in Vancouver when this skater could not make the Jr team in Japan? It is ridiculous and I believe quite an injustice to leave skaters this good at home so a skater from India or wherever can skate at the Olympic festival. If India wants to have skaters at the Olympics they must do what China did. Build rinks and training facilities, bring in foreign coaches and work hard to get up to world standards. That is how figure skating gets better. Getting a free ticket because your federation paid it's dues is how you dilute a sport and punish some of it's best competitiors. Maybe the moral here is that life is not fair and Olympic Festivals are not about the best but about who paid for their spot in the competition. Sorry but I think it is wrong and I don't support it.

But how exactly would China have got to teh world championships in the first place if they weren't allowed to compete there because they weren't good enough? It's Chicken and Egg.

Maybe it would be fairer to up the numbers and allow 4 or maybe 5 skaters frmo one country to attend but once you start saying the countries who are less successful can't go that's when those countries stop putting any funding into their skating programmes and they pull out and the world Championships is no longer that anymore but a competition between the two or three countries who were dominant when the rule change came in and still ahev any kind of skating programme.

Ant

 

[life684]

I personally don't think skaters are the most hard done by Olympic and World championships rule to limit the number of athletes from a single federation. Think of a wrestler who is no.2 in the world but the trouble is no.1 happens to be his countrymen. Weightlifting is even worse (at olympics), each federation can send 4 ladies for 7 events, chinese usually have 5 or 6 world champions.

When one thinks of it skating rule seems fair, with this rule a federation can still sweep the podium, if they have the talent and the politicking works in their favor. and personally I would not want 25 race walkers from russia or 12 sprinters from USA or Jamaica competing in an event.

 

[Buttercup]

But how exactly would China have got to teh world championships in the first place if they weren't allowed to compete there because they weren't good enough? It's Chicken and Egg.

I agree. There has to be an opportunity for skaters whose countries don't have a great figure skating tradition, otherwise the sport will never develop in new places. It's not like everyone gets three slots at Worlds, and of course the stronger federations don't have to choose just one person to send. If skaters can't make the world team out of the own country, I really don't see why Clara Peters or Maria Papasotiriou should be held accountable for that.

Re the Chinese, as Ant noted it's a bad example. Bin Yao and his partner went to the 1980 Worlds and it was a notoriously awful performance - people were actually laughing at them - but learning by competing against the best skaters in the World helped him become a better coach and develop the Chinese pairs program.

Ant, are you going for 4000 today?

 

[seniorita]

i said many times my view yesterday, so today I just wanna ask

Ant, are you going for 4000 today?

will we have an anniversary party of your 4000 posts of british humor????
arty:

 

[antmanb]

And a clean Alissa ... can do well. These are all skaters that might not be competing who could beat Joannie on a given night.

Honestly i don't think a clean Czisny or Flatt should beat a clean Joannie. If that isn't what you are saying then i'm not sure there's much to add to the discussion as a clean skater A could always beat a seriously flawed skater B, but if skater A rarely skates clean, and skater B is consistent enough to not be seriously flawed then it's a moot point.

A clean Jenna McKorkell could do pretty well against a clean field and do exceptionally well against a flawed field, but what does this actually tell us? Also when will Jenna put two back to back clean performances...but you could substitute Jenna's name with nearly any other skater in this example.

Buttercup and Seniorita - seems i'm teetering on the edge!

Ant

 

[janetfan]

But how exactly would China have got to teh world championships in the first place if they weren't allowed to compete there because they weren't good enough? It's Chicken and Egg.

Maybe it would be fairer to up the numbers and allow 4 or maybe 5 skaters frmo one country to attend but once you start saying the countries who are less successful can't go that's when those countries stop putting any funding into their skating programmes and they pull out and the world Championships is no longer that anymore but a competition between the two or three countries who were dominant when the rule change came in and still ahev any kind of skating programme.
Ant

Good points Ant, I wonder though - you and several others have expressed a similar point that "soon it will be a competition bewteen two or three countries.
Is that the best point many have against a more modern and fair approach to getting the best skaters in the world to compete at Worlds?
I think it is unrealisitic to say it will get down to two or three. USA and Canada won't quit. Japan won't quit. Do you really think the Russians or French or Germans will quit? The Italians will never quit as long as speedy is around.
If USA and Russia are skating then China will never quit. It seems as if Koreans have gone crazy over skating so I doubt they will quit.
Has England given up Tennis even though they have not had a male champion in what - 70 years? Actually, they still host a nice little tournament.
And what if India quits? Is that automatically good or bad for skating?
I am not so sure about all of this.
I think about the US Open Tennis Championship. It, along with the other Tennis Grand Slam events appear to be flourishing. TV money is huge, and attendance is great. Tennis uses a draw based on player's rankings to decide who will play at a tournamanet. These events also wisley allow for several wild card invitations should an inured or retired palyer wish to return. Boris Becker played at Wimbledon up to the end of his career. Why? Because it was so good for tennis to have him "playing in his living room." I don't recall such nonsense over does he qualify, or is this fair to let him play? It seems to me unwise NOT to let a skater like Plushenko, Sasha or Michelle return to the sport.
It seems equally unwise to base a world championship on having as many skaters from as many different countries competing. The goal should always be to have the best. This apparently does not work in skating. Skating is questioned on many levels and even the IOC has threatened to do something drastic at times if skating didn't clean up it's act.
It's a new day and I have already said too much on this topic. Thanks for your comments, they are appreciated.

 

[seniorita]

we can also put a limit of the maximum paragraphs someone can write on the same post
(joke , i love newspaper size posts)

what teetering means Ant?I need to push you on the other side?

 

[Audrey19]

I think many of you are missing a point. Let's take the example of Caroline and Maria P. or any other skater at worlds who didn't qualify or the LP. Caroline has a definite chance of cracking the top 10 at worlds, whereas Maria doesn't have a decent chance of qualifying for the LP. However, Maria got to go to worlds because she is from a small federation which doesn't have a tough competition to make the worlds team. Caroline is from a big federation and of course, according to the rules she didn't earn her spot. But those rules are the problem. It's not Maria's fault that Caroline couldn't go to worlds, not at all. But it is extremely unfair that the rules don't allow more than three skaters per federation, and the system of securing or earning the 3 spots is pointless as well. All Caroline, Mirai, Ashley, Kimmie and I'm sure some others are much better than many of the skaters competing at worlds. But the world or olympic championship is supposed to be a contest of the best of the world. But it is not, since some world class athletes are left out.
With the system we currently have we have many skaters competing for small federations because they are afraid of the competition for the spots on the worlds team. And why would you mind seeing more than 3 skaters from one country at worlds? Don't we want to see the best? Other sports don't have that kind of limit, so why should figure skating?
We could establish a qualification round where all skaters compete regardless of their nationality.
If we take a closer look, we can see that this would not only leave 2 or 3 countries. In men's, the top five at worlds 2009 were from five different nations:
USA, Canada, France, Czech Republic, Italy. Other countries have internationally succesful skaters as well: Japan, Russia, Belgium, until very recently Switzerland, and there are more who have decent skaters.
I'm pretty sure that a changement of the rules would be a step in the right direction.

 

[gkelly]

No one wants to address my suggestions in post 45 of this thread?