Olympics/World Championships Skating Requirements

[gkelly]

If you want to have the best skaters at the world championships, you need to have some way of determining who the best skaters are. That would need to involve some sort of competitions by which individual skaters and/or individual federations qualify spots in the championships.

Suppose the determination of "best skaters in the world who deserve to compete at the world championships" was based on all other international senior competitions that season, possibly with consideration also given to junior internationals and/or competitions from a year or two previous as well. In that case, you'd end up with something along the lines of the current ISU rankings, perhaps with different weightings for the various kinds of competitions.

Then you would need to determine who gets to enter the whatever the qualifying events are, to have a chance of qualifying for the world championships.

Let's say there is absolutely no limit set by the ISU on the number of skaters from any one country who can participate in these international competitions, and there are enough such competitions available to accommodate all senior skaters who want to enter or whose federations want to send them out.

So the US might choose 20 different ladies to participate in these events this year. They'll draw a cutoff somewhere, somehow, for financial reasons even if there are an infinite number of international competition spots available. They're not going to choose 120 different ladies, even if that's how many senior ladies there are in the US this year. And remember that maybe half of those 120 US senior ladies are no better and in some cases considerably worse than the worst skater at Worlds. But the 21st-best US lady might be better than the third-best German lady who gets to compete at Nebelhorn. Or the 11th best Japanese lady might be better than the 20th-best American, but the Japanese federation chose only to send out 10 ladies

If only 30 skaters qualify for Worlds based on the international rankings, then it's highly unlikely that there would be anyone better than those 30 who never got a chance to compete in any international competition at all. Especially if some of the potential Worlds-qualifying events take place later in the season than most nationals (Euros/4Cs and Junior Worlds under the current schedule). The skaters who don't get to enter the qualifying events are not likely to be good enough to qualify, even if they are better than some skaters from smaller countries who did get the chance to enter the qualifying events and place poorly.

Depending on how the results for the various events are weighted and whether placements or scores are used, the rankings of who qualifies for Worlds might be skewed in such a way that if you take the top 30, many will believe that the 32nd skater on the list was actually better all season than the 29th best on the list but suffered from the luck of the draw, luck of the weighting system, luck of what judging panels and technical panels officiated at her events, etc. To some extent, which of the skaters ranked 29-32 performed "better" than the others might be a subjective opinion. There's no way to guarantee that who should or shouldn't make the cutoff is completely obvious.

"Better than" is also often debatable, because skaters' skill levels often vary enough from one event to the next, especially when it comes to jump success, so results at any given event do not necessarily mean that that order of who was better than whom that week would be true the following week.

When the world championships had qualifying rounds, in some senses you could argue that they were not part of the actual championships but rather a separate competition to determine which skaters get to move on to the actual championships.
This argument would have been more compelling in the years when the qual round results did not count toward the final results.

Similarly, we could now argue that the 50+-skater short program at Worlds is a qualifying event to determine who gets to qualifying for the final long-program round of 24 skaters.

And a world championship should not have 15- 20 skaters that have absolutely no chance of beating 10-20 other skaters who are so clearly and totally superior.

So what if we consider "the world championships" to consist of the final round -- i.e., the long program.

In most cases, the skaters who place, say, 16-24 do indeed have a chance of beating many of the skaters who place 1-15. In most cases it's a slim chance, but there are certainly examples of skaters who placed low at Worlds one year, maybe not even advancing to the long program, or to the short program when there were qual rounds, but who proved themselves among the top 10 skaters in the world the previous or following season.

There are more than 24 skaters in the world who are good enough to place in the top 24 at a world championships on any given day.

If they didn't place high enough when given the opportunity to qualify for that final world championship round of 24, then they don't get chance to prove it this year. Better luck next year. That's true whether they take themselves out of the running in the earlier competition phase(s) at Worlds, or by placements in an international qualifying series, or by placement at national qualifying competition(s) used by federations to determine who to send to Worlds.

There may be 5 or 10 US ladies in any given year who are capable of placing top 10 in the world under the existing system with a maximum of 3 skaters per country at Worlds. But if they all got the chance to compete at Worlds, they would not all end up in the top 10, or even in the top 24 and get to skate their long programs.

With only 24 spots available in the final round at Worlds, no matter what qualifying system is used, some of the best skaters will end up not qualifying.

 

[antmanb]

If a country decides to devote 95% of their skating resources to short track I don't see why that should get them any special treatment when it comes to figure skating.

What do you mean by special treatment? All I want to see is each federation getting one spot at the world championships. Your argument seemed to be that it doesn't matter if a lesser federation doesn't get to send it's skaters if they stand no chance of beating the skaters from other federations who stay at home. The point of raising less strong federations in skating (which is exactly what Korea is for figure skating) was that without the exposure to worlds which that country currently gets but which it might not if it's skaters were booted in favour of the 4th and 5th placed US and Japanese skaters.

I don't see how she can be used as an example when she appears to be a once in a generation type of talent.

The only example I am using her for is precisely because she is a once in a generation talent coming from federation that does not have a historic list of strong skaters, therefore would the talent of Yuna had been spotted/nurtured/allowed to develop if Korea hadn't had the opportunity to send her to worlds?

To be honest this argument can go round around ad inifinitum unless you actually propose a system for how entrance to worlds will be made. If evvery federation can send one skater but a number of other federations can send more than three based on smoe sort of criteria, then i don't really care. If the proposal is to exclude other skaters to allow one or two federations to field a team of 5 or 6 then i am completely against the idea.

If Korea does not have more world class figure skaters it is partially because they are so fanatical about other areas of skating. Meantime, they will have a second skater in the Ladies - and she is not bad. USA and Japan have so many better than her though and that is what I think is unfair. Fumie might not get to Vancouver but a second Korean skater ranked maybe 30th in the world will. That is nice, a wonderful thing for Korea and their second skater. But anyway you cut the deck it basically sucks for Fumie, Caroline, and other skaters that are so much better. Doesn't the hard work and sacrifices they and their families have made count for anything?

Well since you specifically mentioned Vancouver, i'd say again - but that's just the Olympics - it happens in every sport, it happens to the Tennis players and they don't seem to lose any sleep over it.

They are being excluded for one reason only and that is because they come from a strong federation.
I honestly don't know why I feel so strongly about this but it just feels so unfair.

Allow me to be presumptious and say you feel so strongly because you're American and want more of your skaters there especially as it will be difficult enough to choose who the two ladies that go are.

And a world championship should not have 15- 20 skaters that have absolutely no chance of beating 10-20 other skaters who are so clearly and totally superior but are forbidden to compete by politicized rules.
It is a system that rewards mediocrity and punishes achievement. It is a system that keeps speedy in power. It can't be considered a real world championship either.

Now that's just not true. In any field at worlds or wherever there's always going to be half the field that stand little or no chance of beating the top half of the draw that's just competition. I seriously doubt that there are 10-20 skaters sat at home that could do any better, and even if there are that statement would be based on many assumptions like "if they skate clean". If there really were such strong skaters sat at home then why was there not a single US lady at the GPF - that's their chance to show the supposed dominance of the skaters that were left behind at home for worlds since in theory if the field is that strong they could qualify more than the three that go to worlds.

And that there is precisely the best example - did the US deserve any more than the two places it qualified in the ladies this year? To my mind no. Zhang should probably not have been left off the team but should have been there in addition to Czisny? That's a big question given Csizny's results - given her inconsistency isn't she just another mediocre skater who couldn't break the top of the field? How do you compare her with any other nation's national champ and whether she should go to worlds in their place?

Ant

 

[antmanb]

Of course you could say that. But maybe they haven't sacrificed or trained as hard as the better skaters. We don't really know the answer to that.
But aside from that, how do you justify a WC when there is a good chance the medals are tarnished. Maybe the bronze medalist wins their medal because Miki or Yukari is sitting at home and was not allowed to compete. That doesn't feel like a very legit WC medal to me. I would always place an asterik next to it.

I just can't believe that the medals would be tarnished at all - there are only three of them up for grabs and the top federations send three skaters. If a skater cannot grab a medal at their own national championships what makes you think they could get one at the world championships against the field they already lost to at home, plus all the other skaters in the world?

Ant

 

[janetfan]

I just can't believe that the medals would be tarnished at all - there are only three of them up for grabs and the top federations send three skaters. If a skater cannot grab a medal at their own national championships what makes you think they could get one at the world championships against the field they already lost to at home, plus all the other skaters in the world?

Ant

Johnny Weir - might have won a medal last year at Worlds and the fact that he was sick contributed to him not skating his best at US Nationals. OK, who cares about Johnny, his failure or his future. He was sick and that's the way it goes.
But doesn't even a small part of you think there might be some way to address a situation like this so that Johnny could have skated at Worlds last season? USA could have bumped Brandon Mroz but why should our silver medalist who finished 9th at Worlds have to be cut out?

There is a strong chance that Johnny might have medaled or even won with a great skate last year. But he was not allowed to compete.

gkelly has better ideas and analysis about this than I do - I just have questions.
I just see something that manages to fall short of being a legitimate competition and only wish there was a better way. Johnny can't compete and watches 40 to 45 skaters he will beat when healthy skating for the World championship.. It feels wrong to me. It doesn't feel legit or true. Maybe this is why skating can't sell anymore in the USA. Men reject it as being a sport and it is not all that hard to understand when the rules and secret scoring system are considered.

 

[janetfan]

Allow me to be presumptious and say you feel so strongly because you're American and want more of your skaters there especially as it will be difficult enough to choose who the two ladies that go are.

Ant

That is one way to interpret it even though for Ladies I have used more examples of Japanese skaters who have a much stronger claim to an additional skater(s) than USA.
But maybe we should try this out. Base it on the WTT results and that might be a fair way to reward a federation for it's all around excellence and dedication to the advancement of figure skating.

OK, I am just kidding about that and based on all of the various friendly arguments I have heard from posters here I will settle down and accept the status quo. Besides, it is getting too hard keeping up with such long posts.

Thankyou mm, I get your point about such long posts now.

 

[Mathman]

If every federation can send one skater but a number of other federations can send more than three based on some sort of criteria, then I don't really care. If the proposal is to exclude other skaters to allow one or two federations to field a team of 5 or 6 then I am completely against the idea.

I think there are two considerations that trump any amount of internet opinion.

The first is money. In recent times the ISU has enacted draconian measures to reduce the costs of their operations. Worlds in particular is so expensive that most countries cannot afford to host it and the ISU can't either.

For instance, starting this year, if a skater does not skate well enough in the short program to make the free skate, that skater's room and board allowance is terminated after breakfast the day following the short program. (You messed up your double Axel, you think we are going to buy you lunch?! )

They reduced the number of judges from 12 (or 14) to 9, feeling that those few dollars saved in transportation and accomodations for three extra people might be the straw that breaks the ISU's budget. Never mind the risk to the quality of judging.

They pulled out all financial support for Skate America, telling the USFSA that they (the USFSA) must earn it by first securing an Anerican TV contract not only for Skate America but for other ISU events. (That is how the ISU was able to stage the World Team Trophy -- the Jappanese Federation negotiated with Japanese television and corporate sponsors to pay for everything, so all the ISU had to do was skim a little money off the top.)

Cinquanta has indeed been arguing along the exact lines that Janetfan is championing, that we need to cut out the weak sisters who are not going to win anything anyway. The difference is, Janetfan supports this view in order to have a fairer and more meaningful and competitve World Championship event, while Cinquanta just wants to save money.

Anyway, the bottom line is the bottom line. The ISU may very well drain away some of the skaters from the shallow end of the talent pool. But they will not invite more skaters from countries with stronger programs.

The second point to consider is this. The ISU is basically a private club. If you want to join the club, there are certain entry requirements, like you have to agree to hold a certain number of events including a national champioship, etc. You also pay your dues.

Once you are a member of the club, you succeed to the rights and privileges of membership. One of these rights and priviledes is that you get to send your national representative to ISU championship events.

I think it is a tough sell to convince the membership to abandon these rights for the supposed greater good of the sport.

 

[janetfan]

Thanks for that post mm. Very clear and concise and even with tired eyes I read it all.
My eyes are tired from proofreading my own posts

 

[enlight78]

So basically MathMan figureskating will be slave to ISU and the feds until it popular enough to be finacially independent. And if it does, will the skaters become independent since the prize money might actuall be enough for them to make a living with out the assistance of skating shows or their federation.

 

[janetfan]

So basically MathMan figureskating will be slave to ISU and the feds until it popular enough to be finacially independent. And if it does, will the skaters become independent since the prize money might actuall be enough for them to make a living with out the assistance of skating shows or their federation.

As mm has pointed out previously the purpose of the Grand Prix series was to eliminate competiton and to keep as many of the best skaters possible under the direct control of the ISU. There were some good things accomplished and skaters like Michelle might have left the competitive ranks to make money skating as a pro like so many skaters before her had done had it not been for the improved financial opportunities for "amateur" skaters.

But sometimes we can see the results are not always so good when there is little or no competition. Many here think the Grand Prix saved skating, others might think ISU needs to be saved from itself.

Right now the TBA slot at SA is potentially important enough to determine whether the event makes money this season. There are times when survival trumps rules. We will see how it all turns out but if Michelle returns along with Sasha NBC will be able to sell some advertising this fall. Without them it will be so much tougher.

 

[Mathman]

So basically MathMan figureskating will be slave to ISU and the feds until it popular enough to be finacially independent. And if it does, will the skaters become independent since the prize money might actuall be enough for them to make a living with out the assistance of skating shows or their federation.

I don’t really have a well thought out position on all of this.

But I believe that the root of the problem is that figure skating has never been able to free itself of the designation “Olympic sport.” As long as skaters cherish above all the chance to go to the Olympics, and as long as the ISU is in bed with the IOC (Cinquanta is on the Council) I do not see any possibility of changes in the direction of making the sport more “skater-centered.”

Here is what would be cool. Why can’t this whole generation of skaters – Mao Asada, Yu-na Kim, Miki Ando, Joannie Rochette, Carolina Kostner, Lambiel, Buttle, Joubert, Weir, Lysacek – all the usual suspects – get together after the Olympics and start up pro competitions again. It seems to me that there is potential to beat the ISU at its own game. If handled right, why wouldn’t these skaters be in greater demand for a series of competitions than whoever is left over or the young kids with Sochi on their minds?

 

[Mathman]

As mm has pointed out previously the purpose of the Grand Prix series was to eliminate competiton and to keep as many of the best skaters possible under the direct control of the ISU. There were some good things accomplished and skaters like Michelle might have left the competitive ranks to make money skating as a pro like so many skaters before her had done had it not been for the improved financial opportunities for "amateur" skaters.

That brings up the second possibility for change -- and probably a more realistic one than expecting the skaters themselves to sieze the initiative and instantly sprout a bouquet of entrepreneurial talents.

What if some of the more active federations decided that they would be better off standing alone? A sizeable number of officials in both the USFSA and in the Japanese federation supported the World Skating Federation. What would stop them from taking back control of their own events? What exactly are they getting out of the ISU anyway?

(Unfortunately, there is an answer to that rhetorical question -- the Olympics.)

 

[antmanb]

Whole post

:agree:

Thank you Gkelly that was a very clear post that expressed many things that were rolling around in my head but i couldn't seem to express. The crux of the issue is exactly as you say - whatever system you have in place which allows more skaters from one federation and/or cuts out weaker skaters will still rely on a qualification competition of some sort. Ice is slippery and skater rarely (if ever nowadays) perform to the full potential and skate clean, so there will always be arguments about how skaters coudls shoulda woulda placed. The timing of the qualifying competitionwould also affect this.

Ant

 

[enlight78]

:agree:

Thank you Gkelly that was a very clear post that expressed many things that were rolling around in my head but i couldn't seem to express. The crux of the issue is exactly as you say - whatever system you have in place which allows more skaters from one federation and/or cuts out weaker skaters will still rely on a qualification competition of some sort. Ice is slippery and skater rarely (if ever nowadays) perform to the full potential and skate clean, so there will always be arguments about how skaters coudls shoulda woulda placed. The timing of the qualifying competitionwould also affect this.

Ant

There will be issues and problems and exceptions to every system. One will never have perfert one, but to have a better one (if only slightly) is all we can hope for. I think the question is which one is the lesser of two evils, so to speak. Do you cut the buds or the blossoms that are already in bloom. Do you do a combination of both. If you had to speak to a skater personally ( forget the rules). Would you prefer to tell top ten skater (ISU rankings) X you can't go becuase you have three other good skaters from your nation already going. Or skater X you can't go becuse there 50 other skaters that performed better than you.

 

[janetfan]

There will be issues and problems and exceptions to every system. One will never have perfert one, but to have a better one (if only slightly) is all we can hope for. I think the question is which one is the lesser of two evils, so to speak. Do you cut the buds or the blossoms that are already in bloom. Do you do a combination of both. If you had to speak to a skater personally ( forget the rules). Would you prefer to tell top ten skater (ISU rankings) X you can't go becuase you have three other good skaters from your nation already going. Or skater X you can't go becuse there 50 other skaters that performed better than you.

I would not like to have to tell either skater but if I had to choose I would tell skater #51 that they just missed qualifying. I would encourage them and tell them to train hard and that next year you should qualify.
For the skater who came in #4 at their Natls I would tell them look into getting a new passport from anywhere but Japan or USA and we will see them next year contending for a medal.

I like that Tennis Grand Slams have "wild cards" that they can issue to players who have been injured or have not played enough that season to qualify automatically. That let Boris Becker and Pete Sampras play at Wimbledon and US Open when they were older and still dangerous players and just as importantly they were huge fan favorites. I believe Pete won his last US Open as a wild card and not sure about Boris but think he made the final four at Wimbledon as a wild card.
In both cases having such great, respected players competing added much to the tournament.

I just wonder if skating couldn't come up with something similar. But maybe it is not practical and Tennis is a different sport than skating.
It does appear that the skating Grand prix's are allowed to add what I would consider wild card entries. Certainly Michelle or Sasha could fall under that category.

 

[Mathman]

It does appear that the skating Grand prix's are allowed to add what I would consider wild card entries. Certainly Michelle or Sasha could fall under that category.

Historically the individual Grand Prix events were invitationals. Whoever threw the party invited the "guests." These events still maintain something of the spirit of invitationals, except that now there are ISU rules about who must and who may not be invited.

Anyway, the host country can invite whoever they want from their own country as wild cards (for instance, the USFSA can invite Michelle to Skate America, no questions asked.) In addition they can invite a crowd favorite like Tugba Karademir (number 35 on the ISU ranking list), even though Tugba will not be contending for a medal, nor is the Turkish Skating Federation in a position to return a favor.

In contrast, Worlds is more like an "open." It is open to all national federations, strong, weak, or in between. No qualifying necessary, just show up.

Unfortunately it is not open to every individual skater, just to every national skating federation.

 

[seniorita]

Anyway, the host country can invite whoever they want from their own country as wild cards (for instance, the USFSA can invite Michelle to Skate America, no questions asked.) In addition they can invite a crowd favorite like Tugba Karademir

wait, you mean they can invite someone outside their country who is not in the rules?have we said that before?it is not on my notes!!!
or you mean they can invite from different federation like the Tugby only for just to skate without competing in the 12?

 

[Mathman]

wait, you mean they can invite someone outside their country who is not in the rules?have we said that before?it is not on my notes!!!
or you mean they can invite from different federation like the Tugby only for just to skate without competing in the 12?

It is all within the rules. Certain skaters are guaranteed one or two spots. After those guarantees are met, the hosting federations have quite a lot of leeway as to who else they will invite to fill up the remaining spots, up to 12 in all.

If I remember correctly they can invite anyone on the active top 75 personal best list -- which includes just about everyone.

 

[seniorita]

I m noting down!
I just meant if Nhk could invite kwan for example.
And now I re-read I think i understood wrong, I thought you meant the skater from Turquey will be invited but no to compete, like to a gala or something, I m stupid, Sorry!

 

[Mathman]

I just meant if Nhk could invite kwan for example.
And now I re-read I think i understood wrong, I thought you meant the skater from Turquey will be invited but no to compete, like to a gala or something, I m stupid, Sorry!

About NHK, since Michelle Kwan is not on the active list and did not have a personal best (or a top finish at Worlds, etc.) last year, she is not eligible to be invited to NHK.

Except that, the ISU could rule that Michelle falls into the category of previous World medalists who missed last season due to injury. Kind of a stretch in my opinion, but I am sure the ISU would go along with it (and for Plushenko, too, if he wanted to do another event besides Cup of Russia.)

About inviting skaters to do the gala who are not in the competition, the ISU is increasing firm about not allowing this under any circumstances. A few years ago everyone was worried that Skate America would be a box office dud because both the U.S. ladies champion (Michelle Kwan) and the U.S. men's champion (Todd Eldredge) decided not to compete. So Todd (who lived nearby and was very popular locally) offered to skate an exhibition just to help sell tickets. But the ISU said, no go.

 

[seniorita]

now i think i have all in a crumble in my head..Why is it kind of stretch for Michell (or Plush) ??hadnt we said that these skaters fall in h category, and thats why Sasha got two invitations?
Did I do a wrong homework?