Caroline Zhang's 2009-10 season

[Andalusia]

Haha, we're not twins separated at birth, are we? I've always wanted a sister.

I have an older sister, but I wouldn't mind another one.

Rachael wasn't clean at Four Continents, if I recall correctly.. And well, I believe that she had some minor downgrades that Zhang did not have at WTT (on a combo jump)

Flatt got higher Pcs than Zhang at World Team Trophy. If she can continue to improve her skating skills, repeat the loop instead of her flutz or work on the flutz, and work on getting her 3/3 around. Flatt can beat Zhang...

The fact is though at that year's Nationals Rachael was coming off of beating Caroline at Junior Worlds, and the best Grand Prix finish of the ladies.

I would also like to point out that Caroline had nothing to lose at Four Continents and Junior Worlds. We don't know if she would have really finished ahead of Flatt at Worlds.

Caroline had both 3/3s downgraded at 4CC, and I believe a spin as well. Her loop was also poorly executed in the SP. I don't think Rachael could have made many more errors than that.

And it's not surprising that you only say if Rachael improves this, if Rachael improves that, she can beat Caroline. It works both ways. If Caroline improves in those areas that you cited, she could easily beat Rachael, too. As it is, she is already beating her with subpar skating skills.

Based on what we last saw of them, if both were to go completely clean, I still think Caroline would beat Rachael as far as international competitions go. They both have to work on their basics, sure, but Rachael's spins are also quite poor - they are very slow and the positions are mediocre.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The difference between Michelle and all other skaters, for me, is that MK was more of a danseur on skates than any other skater, including Caroline. You were actually watching MK perform a solo dance on skates despite the fact that she was also competing. Maybe there were others in prior times but none, imo, during the 80s and 90s.

Caroline, unfortunately, has to face the demands of the CoP and all the horrendous restrictions put on skaters for the Long Program. It just ain't like the times when there was a Free Skate.

I think if Irina was not so sickly in her last years of skating, she more than others would be very special under the CoP because she was a tough competitor moreso than MK. (Watch out for Leonova - very similar.)

Caroline: Work the Technical, and don't worry about the PCS except to entertain the audience.

 

[antmanb]

I think if Irina was not so sickly in her last years of skating, she more than others would be very special under the CoP because she was a tough competitor moreso than MK. (Watch out for Leonova - very similar.)

I don't know about that Joe. Irina and Michelle spent many years going head to head and we know that Michelle won many more of those than she lost which would say to me of the two, Michelle was the tougher competitor, otherwise Irina would have the medals to show for it.

Both seemed to suffer and lose their competitive edge at the big O.

Ant

 

[janetfan]

I don't know about that Joe. Irina and Michelle spent many years going head to head and we know that Michelle won many more of those than she lost which would say to me of the two, Michelle was the tougher competitor, otherwise Irina would have the medals to show for it.

Both seemed to suffer and lose their competitive edge at the big O.

Ant

I think Michelle skated very well at the '98 Olympics. Perhaps Tara skated better or maybe the judges had another agenda besides deciding who was the best Lady skater at that competition. What was the famous quote from Tat regarding which American skater would win?

 

[antmanb]

I think Michelle skated very well at the '98 Olympics. Perhaps Tara skated better or maybe the judges had another agenda besides deciding who was the best Lady skater at that competition. What was the famous quote from Tat regarding which American skater would win?

I actually agree and would say that both Michelle and Irina skated amazing LPs in Nagano. I've never believed that there was anything wrong with the judges decision in Nagano at all and i say that as a die hard Kwan fan. I also think Tat said what she said in jest, and even if she didn't she does talk a fair amount of crap like her claiming the Kerrs got a £1m funding so i'd take what she says with a pinch of salt!

Ant

 

[PolymerBob]

The fact is that Caroline seems to have more fans that Rachael, Alissa and Mirai combined. I am not sure why - or what it is about Caroline because many of the posts here point out flaws and parts of her skating that could be improved.

I think the big reason Caroline has so many fans is the unique way she came to prominence. The way it's supposed to work is a skater does well at the national level, whether junior or senior, then goes out to the international competitions and does well there.

Caroline doesn't fit the mold. She did fair to mediocre at the national level. Somehow, she barely landed a spot in the 2006 Junior Grand Prix, and won her first competition in Mexico by .... um .... 53 points! Then she faltered slightly at 2007 Junior Nats, then won Junior Worlds.

Now, consider the next 2 National championships. In 2008, the judges missed an element in her short, raised her score to fix the mistake, then lowered it again when someone pointed out such mistakes could not be fixed. She is knocked out the final group and finishes fourth. Then in 2009, she gets beat by the grace, beauty and elegance of a three triple program.

It’s like she's the Coyote in the Roadrunner cartoons. Despite her best efforts, she just cannot succeed at the national level. That’s why so many of us are pulling for her.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think Michelle skated very well at the '98 Olympics. Perhaps Tara skated better or maybe the judges had another agenda besides deciding who was the best Lady skater at that competition. What was the famous quote from Tat regarding which American skater would win?

Tat said something to the effect that Carroll should have given the Russian judge a bottle of vodka because he didn't care which girl would win.

However, the Russian judge said with glee that he was happy to mark down America's favorite.

I always thought that the USSR was out to beat the USA, and in this case to allow the lesser of two evils to win gold. I think revenge came in 2002 when Sara won.

 

[antmanb]

Tat said something to the effect that Carroll should have given the Russian judge a bottle of vodka because he didn't care which girl would win.

However, the Russian judge said with glee that he was happy to mark down America's favorite.

I always thought that the USSR was out to beat the USA, and in this case to allow the lesser of two evils to win gold. I think revenge came in 2002 when Sara won.

I just don't buy the Konspiracy theories around this event - it wasn't a 5-4 split from memory so one judge alone and countless bottles of vodka wouldn't have affected the result.

Edit - i looked it up and it was a 6-3 split.

The judges that went with Lipisnki: Australia, Hungary, Austria, Russia, Ukraine, France.

Judges that went with Kwan: Germany, USA and Poland.

Eastern bloc didn't even have a majority of the panel and it didn't just split down those lines anyway.

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I just don't buy the Konspiracy theories around this event - it wasn't a 5-4 split from memory so one judge alone and countless bottles of vodka wouldn't have affected the result.

Ant

I don't think anyone was arguing the results. It was the attitudes of the backgound players.

 

[janetfan]

I just don't buy the Konspiracy theories around this event - it wasn't a 5-4 split from memory so one judge alone and countless bottles of vodka wouldn't have affected the result.

Edit - i looked it up and it was a 6-3 split.

The judges that went with Lipisnki: Australia, Hungary, Austria, Russia, Ukraine, France.

Judges that went with Kwan: Germany, USA and Poland.

Eastern bloc didn't even have a majority of the panel and it didn't just split down those lines anyway.

Ant

Poland, since breaking free of the "Soviets" does not vote with them. France and Italy, whenever they have anybody in contention for a medal seems to always vote with them.
The Aussie judge was probably drunk on a bottle of Russian vodka.

 

[evangeline]

I just don't buy the Konspiracy theories around this event - it wasn't a 5-4 split from memory so one judge alone and countless bottles of vodka wouldn't have affected the result.

Ant

Ah, 1998 Nagano ladies' event, that old chesnut. A sure sign that summer is truly here.

Even though I am a Kwan-fan, I would have to agree with the skepticism about a *conspiracy* perpetuated at Nagano, particularly by the Russian judge. The ladies' decision at Nagano was a 6-3 split--Austria, Australia, Hungary, Russia, Ukraine and France gave Lipinski the first place ordinals; Germany, Poland and USA ranked Kwan first. I don't think there's anything terribly dodgy there. I do agree with what Tarasova is saying in principle though--either way, the US was clearly going to win the ladies event. Would the Russians (or ANY other country, really) care about which American girl was going to win enough to go through the trouble of fixing the results?

Anyways, I would also say that affected the result most was the skating order and Lipinski's admittedly impressive 3Lo-3Lo and 3T-half loop-3S sequence that were both very late into the program (and Kwan's lack of a 3-3).

 

[janetfan]

I
It’s like she's the Coyote in the Roadrunner cartoons. Despite her best efforts, she just cannot succeed at the national level. That’s why so many of us are pulling for her.

There doesn't seem to be any talk about Mirai or her switch to Frank Carroll except from me. Is this topic a sore spot with some Caroline fans?
I wonder if some wish that it was Caroline who had switched over to Carroll?
I think Carroll will be able to fix up Mirai's UR problems and working around Evan and Carolina may be a positive experience for Mirai. The Toyota Center is also supposed to be a great place for serious skaters to train.

Is Caroline going to be coached by committee as Mirai previously was? I wonder about that. So much of coaching can be judgement and experience. If a skater is being told different things from different people what will the outcome be?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Even though I am a Kwan-fan, I would have to agree with the skepticism about a *conspiracy* perpetuated at Nagano, particularly by the Russian judge. The ladies' decision at Nagano was a 6-3 split--Austria, Australia, Hungary, Russia, Ukraine and France gave Lipinski the first place ordinals; Germany, Poland and USA ranked Kwan first. I don't think there's anything terribly dodgy there. I do agree with what Tarasova is saying in principle though--either way, the US was clearly going to win the ladies event. Would the Russians (or ANY other country, really) care about which American girl was going to win enough to go through the trouble of fixing the results?

Just so I am reading correctly who and where did the word conspiracy start on this thread?
The results have been known for 10 years now. I believe the question was something about Tat's remark about how the Americans could have had their favorite win with gifts to the judges. No conspiracy, just graft.

 

[PolymerBob]

There doesn't seem to be any talk about Mirai or her switch to Frank Carroll except from me. Is this topic a sore spot with some Caroline fans?
I wonder if some wish that it was Caroline who had switched over to Carroll?
I think Carroll will be able to fix up Mirai's UR problems and working around Evan and Carolina may be a positive experience for Mirai. The Toyota Center is also supposed to be a great place for serious skaters to train.

Is Caroline going to be coached by committee as Mirai previously was? I wonder about that. So much of coaching can be judgement and experience. If a skater is being told different things from different people what will the outcome be?

Mirai had other problems not related to coaching. At least that's what we, the general public, have been told. Weather it was injury, too many coaches, or her refusal to obey Charlene, we will have to wait and see what Frank can do.

As for Charlene coaching Caroline, Charline may have made some mistakes while coaching Mirai. Perhaps she has learned from those mistakes.

 

[bekalc]

I have an older sister, but I wouldn't mind another one.



Caroline had both 3/3s downgraded at 4CC, and I believe a spin as well. Her loop was also poorly executed in the SP. I don't think Rachael could have made many more errors than that.

And it's not surprising that you only say if Rachael improves this, if Rachael improves that, she can beat Caroline. It works both ways. If Caroline improves in those areas that you cited, she could easily beat Rachael, too. As it is, she is already beating her with subpar skating skills.

Based on what we last saw of them, if both were to go completely clean, I still think Caroline would beat Rachael as far as international competitions go. They both have to work on their basics, sure, but Rachael's spins are also quite poor - they are very slow and the positions are mediocre.

Of course Caroline can improve too. But in Rachael's case, Rachael is a better basic skater than Zhang is, so Rachael has more to work with when it comes to basic skating.

 

[vlaurend]

Can I ask where you found this out from?

It may have originally come from me. A friend of mine was on a session with her and saw her skating to it. Not sure which section of the pas de deux, but that was definitely it.

 

[Andalusia]

By half a point.

I would not say that Caroline had nothing to lose at 4CC. She needed to beat Alissa and Rachael to prove that she was as good as they were after questionable judging at Nationals.

I remember that JW. If Caroline hadn't been downgraded on the loop, she would've repeated as champion and beaten a clean Rachael.

At 4CC, Caroline skated next to last in the FS; she also remarked how nervous she was at competing against the likes of Mao and Yu-Na. If she had nothing to lose, neither did Rachael, who was not coming in as the national champion. Rachael also would've had less reason to feel demoralized, as she had made the World team in spite of questionable judging. And judging from how Caroline was sobbing after her bad SP at '09 JW, I'd say she was feeling pressured. Maybe, after being left off the World team, she had all the more reason to prove to TPTB that she belongs amongst the top ladies?

The fact is that Caroline seems to have more fans that Rachael, Alissa and Mirai combined. I am not sure why - or what it is about Caroline because many of the posts here point out flaws and parts of her skating that could be improved.

I think Caroline's more popular because, out of the new baby ballerinas, she seems to have come into prominence first. She obliterated the field on the junior circuit, so many were expecting great things from her. Also, I wasn't active on the boards at the time, but this performance was the first to cause quite a stir, I think:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdrR01JJmQY

You'll notice that, on YouTube, this vid has had way more hits than those of the other new girls. One can see why this brand of skating is so popular, especially with young girls who might be unaware of the finer points of skating technique. The attention getting moves (reminiscent of Sasha, who also made an impression very early on), the overall 'prettiness' of the program - these are appealing to the masses. I also think, out of the new crop, Caroline most exudes a delicate, slightly fragile quality, which is traditionally quite popular (Mirai has the flexibility, too, but her skating is more strident).

All the above contributes to Caroline's popularity, but I don't think people would be getting quite so het up over her if she had the consistency of a Bebe Liang, for example. I know I certainly wouldn't - I don't know how many skaters I've been invested in, whom I eventually gave up on because of their frustrating inconsistency. This is why Caroline's skating career excites some; they can see she's a steely competitor, and the greatness that may be in store for her if she manages to fix her many technical issues. Rachael also has that consistency, but it's quite obvious that many find her skating boring. Perhaps that's why I can barely find any vids of her on YouTube, and her performances are always uploaded late, if at all, after competitions are over. Guess whose are usually put up early.

It may have originally come from me. A friend of mine was on a session with her and saw her skating to it. Not sure which section of the pas de deux, but that was definitely it.

Thanks.

 

[feraina]

Of course Caroline can improve too. But in Rachael's case, Rachael is a better basic skater than Zhang is, so Rachael has more to work with when it comes to basic skating.

I don't think Rachael was a better basic skater to begin with. But I think she's been working harder or at least to greater effects over the last two seasons. Caroline has improved relatively less on this front, in fact she looked a little awkward/gangly last season with her newly gained height and longer limbs. Maybe it's because Rachael went through her growth spurt two seasons ago, or at least she's not had a sudden spurt like Caroline (3 inches in one season, 5 inches the next!), so she could make more steady progress on skating skills and jumps, etc. Whereas, Caroline and Mirai had to deal with a lot more sudden growth (Mirai grew 3 inches in one season, 4 the next), and adjusting to this height wasn't easy. Caroline's first competition at SC last year came after a 3-inch growth spurt over the summer (she couldn't even fit into her Sleeping Beauty dress that she only got a few months previously) and injuries that were probably related to the growth spurt; so she had a hard time keeping up the technical skills and training her new programs. We saw from Mirai how much that physical growth and also the emotional turmoil of being a teenager can affect skating. So it was impressive that Caroline managed in one season to regain and stabilize all her skating skills, and maybe we as fans shouldn't be too impatient about her improving faster -- after all she fared a lot better than Mirai, another talented skater and fierce competitor, who faced all the same problems.

Now that Caroline's height growth seems to be stabilizing (only 1/2 inch so far this summer), and she's got a coach with a much better eye for overall program packaging, I wouldn't be surprised if she finally does make some significant progress on the speed/performance front.

As for why she's a popular skater, hmm. She had a lot of "wow" moves at a young age, and she has an innate musicality and grace that shone through a masterpeice of an exhibition program (You Raise Me Up) at age 13. You just felt like she had so much to give, and it is only a matter of time before that rising star really shines. Plus her slightly fragile disposition that someone mentioned, it makes you really want to root for her. I also find her endearing, she's growing up in our eyes, and I for one can relate to the excitement and angst of her teenage years.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

i remember saying at the St. Louis Nats that Caroline was the next big thing in US figure skating. She only did doubles then, but the charisma was there, and she had all the flexibility one talks about on these pages.

I had not seen Rachael at the time to pass any "winning" comparisons.

There are 3 big international skaters out there - do not forget.

 

[janetfan]

i remember saying at the St. Louis Nats that Caroline was the next big thing in US figure skating. She only did doubles then, but the charisma was there, and she had all the flexibility one talks about on these pages.

I had not seen Rachael at the time to pass any "winning" comparisons.

There are 3 big international skaters out there - do not forget.

Not sure which three you mean but I believe Miki, Joannie and Carolina are all in their 20's. Mao and Yuna both turn 19 in a couple of weeks. Caroline just turned 16. I think if her growth spurt is over she can work hard and go forward into this season and with an eye on 2014.