Mirai's Triple Lutz Unfairly Downgraded?

[SkatingAnalyst]

This is the mistake I made when I posted the stills. You can tell nothing from them. You need to post a slo mo vidoe. I looked and Racheal is at less than 1/4 pre-rotated on take off. Her landing looked to be about 1/8 -1/4 UR

I think that others are correct in that the judges may be critical if you are 1/2 turn pre rotated (perhaps more if you look at her entire body which is what the panel may see in regular motion) on take off and 1/4 on landing then you are missing 3/4 of a turn in the air and your triple is 2-1/4 turns in the air. Sounds under rotated to me but I am not a techincal controller.

Racheal has the right technique.

Racheal's landing is not perfectly pretty... but
rotated fully to be ratified. No doubt about that.

 

[Layfan]

After she jumped and was coming down, the toepick of her landing foot touched the ice before reaching the 1/4 turn mark - that is, the point at which the jump has achieved what is considered to be 2 and 3/4 rotations from the point of where the takeoff started.

Some technical controllers seem to consider a jump landed the very moment that a skater's toepick reaches contact with the ice and also do not into the consideration the point at which the jump actually left the ice (rather than the point at which the beginning of the takeoff started).

Here is Flatt's 3Lutz from the SP:

Takeoff:

"Landing":

I do not consider a jump to be landed at this point...the body weight is still in the air and only the very tip of the toepick has reached the ice. A very strict (ie - less canny, less educated) tech specialist might downgrade the jump, though, since at this point it is short of having reached the 1/4 turn mark.

Strict downgrading was applied to Mirai Nagasu at the competition, but not to Rachael Flatt.

Thanks! I see that now. I think I might be able to see it in Mirai's case but as to whether it came at the 1/4 mark or a bit later who the heck knows? No, I don't envy the technical analysts job either ... but it gets on my nerves that such a close call could be so very costly for Mirai. I do think it should be penalized though. I'd be interested in seeing a slo-mo of Rachael's.

So how does one go about fixing underrotations? Is it just a matter of practice or do you have to change your technique? I think i read somewhere that skaters ususually can tell if they have under-rotated a jump. Any of the skaters out there think that's true?

 

[Mathman]

Can chronic underrotation be fixed?

Now that the wuzrobbed fireworks (thanks again, Scott Hamilton ) have died down, we are left with a sober consensus that Mirai underrotated three and maybe four of her six triple jumps in the LP. This is consisent with her international results. So it looks like this is just the way she learned to land her jumps, much like Caroline Zhang learned a faulty take-off on toe jumps and Yukari Nakano learned a leg wrap.

I used to assume that all an underrotated jump needed was a bit more oomph to carry around a few more degrees in the air. Mirai, however, has oomph to spare in terms of height and hang-time, so it must be her actual technique that needs correction.

So I have the same question as Layfan. What can a coach do -- if anything -- to address this problem?

 

[janetfan]

Now that the wuzrobbed fireworks (thanks again, Scott Hamilton ) have died down, we are left with a sober consensus that Mirai underrotated three and maybe four of her six triple jumps in the LP. This is consisent with her international results. So it looks like this is just the way she learned to land her jumps, much like Caroline Zhang learned a faulty take-off on toe jumps and Yukari Nakano learned a leg wrap.

I used to assume that all an underrotated jump needed was a bit more oomph to carry around a few more degrees in the air. Mirai, however, has oomph to spare in terms of height and hang-time, so it must be her actual technique that needs correction.

So I have the same question as Layfan. What can a coach do -- if anything -- to address this problem?

We can also report that the tech caller, Lisa Marie Allen and Mirai's coach, Frank Carroll have quite a history together.

Frank's skater, Linda Fratiane won a very disputed Gold medal at 1980 Natls over Lisa Marie.
There was a controversy and bad blood. But US skating gave Linda the Gold as a way of helping her Olympic chances.

How is it possible that the tech caller missed some obvious to the eye calls against Sasha - but nailed Frank's skater?

Why do some think Rachael and Ashley had a few less than stellar jumps overlooked and only Mirai was dinged and on some questionable calls at that?

 

[Layfan]

Now that the wuzrobbed fireworks (thanks again, Scott Hamilton ) have died down, we are left with a sober consensus that Mirai underrotated three and maybe four of her six triple jumps in the LP. This is consisent with her international results. So it looks like this is just the way she learned to land her jumps, much like Caroline Zhang learned a faulty take-off on toe jumps and Yukari Nakano learned a leg wrap.

I used to assume that all an underrotated jump needed was a bit more oomph to carry around a few more degrees in the air. Mirai, however, has oomph to spare in terms of height and hang-time, so it must be her actual technique that needs correction.

So I have the same question as Layfan. What can a coach do -- if anything -- to address this problem?

Haha! It's true Scott Hamilton always seems to be in the middle of these things. This isn't really a controversy though - the hubbub is mostly restricted to us fans, although some mainstream press did write about the fact that there were murmurs in the audience. But then most of those articles go on to explain about the URs and Rachael's higher technical content and that's it. I have yet to see one truly questioning Rachael's victory, which I think is good. I may have wished things turned out differently and I may wish the COP system allowed it to turn out differently. But Rachael's victory was fair.

As for Scott. I like Scott. I think as a complete outsider of the skating world I can really appreciate what he's done for skating. He certainly helped keep up my interest. When you put yourself out like that you're bound to make mistakes and bound to say a few things you might regret. Kudos to him for publicly eating crow after Rachael one. He said he "blew it.' So he obviously agrees Rachael won fair and square too.

And Scott's over the top enthusiasm is not always enough to start a big ado. He seemed to think Paul Wylie won the 1992 Olympics and no one listened to him

 

[Layfan]

We can also report that the tech caller, Lisa Marie Allen and Mirai's coach, Frank Carroll have quite a history together.

Frank's skater, Linda Fratiane won a very disputed Gold medal at 1980 Natls over Lisa Marie.
There was a controversy and bad blood. But US skating gave Linda the Gold as a way of helping her Olympic chances.

How is it possible that the tech caller missed some obvious to the eye calls against Sasha - but nailed Frank's skater?

Why do some think Rachael and Ashley had a few less than stellar jumps overlooked and only Mirai was dinged and on some questionable calls at that?

Oh no!! I hope this wasn't the motivation for anything

 

[janetfan]

Oh no!! I hope this wasn't the motivation for anything

Well there were obviously a few agendas being played out.

The tech caller was generous to a fault with Sasha.

Ashley and Rachael were also treated with a degree of leniency.

The only skater to have strictest of calls against her was Mirai.

Now when we consider the past and the fact that Frank's skater was always placed above Lisa Marie we have a motive. A very strong motive as Lisa wuzrobbed at 1980 Natls and Frank's skater was given the Gold.

Payback - even thirty years later is still a b_ _ _ _ !

There is no reason to blame Scott. He was shocked because he thought Mirai had skated well enough to win.
This is looking more and more like a real stinker.

 

[Mathman]

Well there was obviously a few agendas being played out.

Sorry, but I think this whole line of thought is absurd. I certainly hope Mirai isn't listening to any such grasping at straws.

What Mirai has to do is correct her technique so as to give the technical callers no gray areas where it could go either way. If every jump is right on that 90 degree borderline, she will win some, lose some. And that is just what has happened all year, both at nationals and internationally.

The worst thing that could happen to the girl is if she somehow got it in her head that that the judges are picking on her because of stuff that happened before she was born. :disagree:

 

[janetfan]

Sorry, but I think this whole line of thought is absurd. I certainly hope Mirai isn't listening to any such grasping at straws.

What Mirai has to do is correct her technique so as to give the technical callers no gray areas where it could go either way. If every jump is right on that 90 degree borderline, she will win some, lose some. And that is just what has happened all year, both at nationals and internationally.

The worst thing that could happen to the girl is if she somehow got it in her head that that the judges are picking on her because of stuff that happened before she was born. :disagree:

I am not suggesting to feed this to Mirai. I stating clearly that anyone who watched can see the techcaller was, to be kind, off her game and totally inconsistent.

There were different standards and to deny it seems strange.
I am a big Sasha fan but with my own eyes I could see how mistakes were being overlooked.

You can disagree all you want but this is kind of obvious. Like you have reminded me many times in the past it is part of figure skating.

I am not so upset now that I have a little more insight into it.

Sasha was ordered to be held up as was Rachael. That is the team US Skating wanted if possible. Mirai surprised them and Sasha couldn't do it and that's the way it goes in skating.

 

[Layfan]

Sasha got a break on her flutz but the real reason she beat (barely) Rachael in the SP may have been because she had the highest PCS of the night and deservedly so. I'm sure if Sasha were on the team we'd be having a furious discussion on whether she was given a break, especially if it came at the expense of giving Rachael a spot on the team. (My guess is that it would have come at the expense of Mirai.)

I do get the feeling that they wanted to send Rachael to the Olympics as the national champion. At the same time, Rachael skated her heart out and made it easy for them to do it. It's not like Rachael had a bunch of stumbles and and was crowned anyway. The judges can easily defend their choice. CoP and Rachael's solidity makes it easy for them to do that. That's why I am much more interested in discussing whether there are flaws in the CoP system, since Mirai was the winner in my eyes. That's something concrete. I'll never know the truth about a tech's motivations, so there's only so far that discussion can go. That's also why I hated the discussions about whether Sasha was making up her injury or not.

(But it is fun to know all these backstories and figure skating certainly has given people reason to be suspicious.)

 

[janetfan]

Sasha got a break on her flutz but the real reason she beat (barely) Rachael in the SP may have been because she had the highest PCS of the night and deservedly so. I'm sure if Sasha were on the team we'd be having a furious discussion on whether she was given a break, especially if it came at the expense of giving Rachael a spot on the team. (My guess is that it would have come at the expense of Mirai.)

I do get the feeling that they wanted to send Rachael to the Olympics as the national champion. At the same time, Rachael skated her heart out and made it easy for them to do it. It's not like Rachael had a bunch of stumbles and and was crowned anyway. The judges can easily defend their choice. CoP and Rachael's solidity makes it easy for them to do that. That's why I am much more interested in discussing whether there are flaws in the CoP system, since Mirai was the winner in my eyes. That's something concrete. I'll never know the truth about a tech's motivations, so there's only so far that discussion can go. That's also why I hated the discussions about whether Sasha was making up her injury or not.

(But it is fun to know all these backstories and figure skating certainly has given people reason to be suspicious.)

Those are good points and I can agree to an extent with them.

Where I have a problem is blaming Scott for this. He called it like he saw it.
Let's consider the LP's for a sec.

Did Scott point out mistakes from Mirai? I think he questioned her last jump.

And Ashley? I should go back and listen but I think we heard "maybe two footed and few other mistakes in her LP.

I agree US Skating wanted Racahel to go - and as the champion. I think it is clear to see they hoped for Sasha to be second but it wasn't possible despite overlooking some of her mistakes.

It appears that if Sasha couldn't make it then Ashley was their hope for the other spot on the team.

Ashley did beat Mirai in the LP which seems hard to believe. Only Ashley's missed Lutz in her SP ruined it for them.

Mirai was barely able to hold onto second despite her 7 point lead over Ashley's inflated SP score.

I don't think Ashley beat Mirai in the LP either but with help from the tech caller she did.

 

[gkelly]

Now when we consider the past and the fact that Frank's skater was always placed above Lisa Marie we have a motive. A very strong motive as Lisa wuzrobbed at 1980 Natls and Frank's skater was given the Gold.

Payback - even thirty years later is still a b_ _ _ _ !

Wendy Enzmann was the technical controller and Troy Goldstein was the assistant technical specialist.

Do you have any conspiracy theories based on anything that happened in the last 30 years about why those two officials would go along with a plot to enforce this agenda you've imagined?

Or about reasons for all the downgrades and edge calls given to other skaters who placed lower in the standings?

 

[Layfan]

Those are good points and I can agree to an extent with them.

Where I have a problem is blaming Scott for this. He called it like he saw it.
Let's consider the LP's for a sec.

Did Scott point out mistakes from Mirai? I think he questioned her last jump.

And Ashley? I should go back and listen but I think we heard "maybe two footed and few other mistakes in her LP.

I agree US Skating wanted Racahel to go - and as the champion. I think it is clear to see they hoped for Sasha to be second but it wasn't possible despite overlooking some of her mistakes.

It appears that if Sasha couldn't make it then Ashley was their hope for the other spot on the team.

Ashley did beat Mirai in the LP which seems hard to believe. Only Ashley's missed Lutz in her SP ruined it for them.

Mirai was barely able to hold onto second despite her 7 point lead over Ashley's inflated SP score.

I don't think Ashley beat Mirai in the LP either but with help from the tech caller she did.

I definitely agree that Scott is not remotely to blame and that he was definitely not the only person who reacted that way to Mirai's skate. I thought Mirai had won as soon as she finished all her jumps and I didn't need Scott for that. I also am puzzled that Ashley finished second to Mirai in the FS. And it is impossible for me not to admit that Sasha got a break from the tech caller. I can't help but get the same sense that you got about what US skating wanted: First choice was Rachael and Sasha and second choice was Rachael and Ashley.

The only thing that makes me pause is that Rachael was after all third in the SP. Anyhow, I think the right two girls were chosen to the Olympics. Ashley blew it. Sasha blew it even more.

 

[Bruin714]

Seems like the Technical Specialist is meticulously examining every one of Marai's jumps in slow motion. I hope the TS at the Olympics sruntinizes every jump and downgrade just about everyone, even YuNa and Mao. The controversy will hopefully change the UR Rules for good.

If hardcore fans, and even expert commentators and judges can't clearly see the UR with the naked eye, it shouldn't matter that much.

 

[janetfan]

Wendy Enzmann was the technical controller and Troy Goldstein was the assistant technical specialist.

Do you have any conspiracy theories based on anything that happened in the last 30 years about why those two officials would go along with a plot to enforce this agenda you've imagined?

Or about reasons for all the downgrades and edge calls given to other skaters who placed lower in the standings?

No I don't at the moment and I don't know the two tech specialists you mentioned. It was posted on another thread that Lisa was the tech caller and I remember 1980 and the disputed victory by Fratiane over Lisa.

Still, my last post is not about an old grudge but about agendas being played out.

I respect your knowledge and know you to be a fair poster.
Do you think Sasha's jumps were marked with the same standard as Mirai's?

If you tell me the tech calls were as fair as possible and with no bias shown I will take your word for it.

 

[chuckm]

Lisa Marie Allen could not have made the UR calls on Mirai as a "payback", because she was only one of three members of the tech team. The tech specialist and the assistant tech specialist MUST agree on a call. If they don't, then the technical controller (who is a judge) makes the final decision.

It's not as if Nationals 2010 was the first time Mirai had received UR calls. Mirai has been gigged repeatedly by ISU tech teams for her URs over the past two years.

Mirai needs to correct her technique on her pick jumps if she wants to maximize her scores.

 

[janetfan]

I definitely agree that Scott is not remotely to blame and that he was definitely not the only person who reacted that way to Mirai's skate. I thought Mirai had won as soon as she finished all her jumps and I didn't need Scott for that. I also am puzzled that Ashley finished second to Mirai in the FS. And it is impossible for me not to admit that Sasha got a break from the tech caller. I can't help but get the same sense that you got about what US skating wanted: First choice was Rachael and Sasha and second choice was Rachael and Ashley.

The only thing that makes me pause is that Rachael was after all third in the SP. Anyhow, I think the right two girls were chosen to the Olympics. Ashley blew it. Sasha blew it even more.

Let's see a slow-mo on Rachaels 3x3. It looked far from perfect to me and that was in realtime. Wonder why that is not being talked about more?

 

[janetfan]

Lisa Marie Allen could not have made the UR calls on Mirai as a "payback", because she was only one of three members of the tech team. The tech specialist and the assistant tech specialist MUST agree on a call. If they don't, then the technical controller (who is a judge) makes the final decision.

It's not as if Nationals 2010 was the first time Mirai had received UR calls. Mirai has been gigged repeatedly by ISU tech teams for her URs over the past two years.

Mirai needs to correct her technique on her pick jumps if she wants to maximize her scores.

Ok, your comments are appreciated. gkelly aslo mentioned it too.
Even though Sasha's comeback didn't get her on the team - it is nice to know our tech callers could see she fixed her flutz.

Yea

 

[Layfan]

Let's see a slow-mo on Rachaels 3x3. It looked far from perfect to me and that was in realtime. Wonder why that is not being talked about more?

It was talked about earlier in this thread, I think, and people are questioning it. Even if she had been downgraded for that though, I doubt it would have cost her her place on the team. That was the point of the last bit of my last post. I think Mirai should have won and Rachael should be second. But I take a modicum of comfort in thinking that the right two girls were chosen for the team based on their performance at nationals.

 

[bekalc]

Seems like the Technical Specialist is meticulously examining every one of Marai's jumps in slow motion. I hope the TS at the Olympics sruntinizes every jump and downgrade just about everyone, even YuNa and Mao. The controversy will hopefully change the UR Rules for good.

If hardcore fans, and even expert commentators and judges can't clearly see the UR with the naked eye, it shouldn't matter that much.

How can hardcore fans see? I may be hardcore fan, but I'm not an expert... Plus I don't think Scott was really analysing things as careful as a tech caller would be.

Where I have a problem is blaming Scott for this. He called it like he saw it.
Let's consider the LP's for a sec.

Scott knew that Miria had underrotation issues and flutzing issues. This scenario has been happening with Mirai all season long. He should have waited. I felt besides the last triple toe that a lot of Mirai's other jumps on the NBC screen were hard to see in real time because we were seeing her from way behind and couldn't even really see her feet...