Hersh on Scoring at Natls

[Mathman]

I believe that it'll be the best to downgrade Mirai's jumps, in the meantime, to give Rachael a much lower PCS to the point that Mirai would be first and Rachael would be the second.

This, though, throws out the whole idea of the CoP and returns to ordinal judging. We thought Mirai was the better of the two, so we will adjust Rachael's score to make it turn out like that.

 

[jennylovskt]

This, though, throws out the whole idea of the CoP and returns to ordinal judging. We thought Mirai was the better of the two, so we will adjust Rachael's score to make it turn out like that.

The judges have been doing it all the time. That is why a lot of times that we, as fans, were frustrated with certain skaters' high PCS or low PCS.

 

[bekalc]

I find the comments following the article interesting, as well.

An important point has been brought up. There is an old saying, "Suppose you gave a party and nobody came?".

Some people write that figure skating needs to be taken more seriously as a sport, and that therefore, the new system is necessary. A long time ago, the sport changed because of the contrast between Janet Lynn and Trixie Schuba. At that time, the sport changed in the direction of what the audience found inspiring and beautiful, as opposed to what they found dull and boring. Following that change, the sport grew in popularity, and became a sufficient money-maker to get shown on TV often, thus inspiring more young people to go into it.

The new judging system may satisfy some sport purists, but if it does not satisfy most viewers, then it will end up seen by relatively few people, and engaged in by even fewer. Lecturing people on why they "should" prefer Rachael's skating to that of skaters they actually prefer to watch, will not bring people to the party.

But the problem with that "artistic crowd pleasing system" was that it was to subjective...And it also didnt' really reward quality. I mean you had skaters who were getting away with flutzing, cheated jumps etc. And this wasn't right. You also had skating skills suffer big time. Figures helped create good edges, nice speed etc. I mean why does Scott think that Anton's small little two foot should have cost him the gold medal to S/P when. A/S program was technically harder and jam packed with difficulty, transitions and choregraphy. Whereas S/P's program was very transitionless. However, Scott had no problem whatsover with G/G's "win" over M/D. If this sport is going to be fair there has to be some standards for deductions and things like that.

The current system needs tweaking but I actually think to say that it doesn't value artistry is ridiculous....Rachael will have a difficult time beating Kim, Asada, Rochette, and Kostner if those guys skate remotely well. And even Ando who is more refined and has spectacular jumps.

Its just people who cannot rotate their jumps, aren't going to be able to compete with Rachael... This is still a sport and there has to be a technical dividing line. I'm willing to bet that there are girls out there who are even better performers than Mirai on skates. But these girls were never able to be successful because they couldn't do the jumps.

It's not artistry/technique against each other. The system needs to reward both and do their best to assure that the champions are the ones who combine both together. However, if you have someone who has given a very poor technical jumping performance and I'm sorry there are more jumps than spins/spirals. Than that should cost them big time over someone who did an excellent technical performance. Which Rachael did-7 triples is Nothing to snuff at or pretend that its nothing.

Originally Posted by jennylovskt
I believe that it'll be the best to downgrade Mirai's jumps, in the meantime, to give Rachael a much lower PCS to the point that Mirai would be first and Rachael would be the second.

You mean like that did at Nationals last year. Tell me how well that one worked out. Maybe the judges didn't think that Mirai was better because of her jumps. I mean people are acting like this is some new issue with Mirai. I could actually see if this underrotation thing was new. But in Mirai's circumstances she's been getting hit for underrotated jumps for the last 3 years. Enough is seriously enough.

 

[Blades of Passion]

You mean like that did at Nationals last year. Tell me how well that one worked out.

It worked out fine because Czisny deserved to win.

Flatt's LP last year at Nationals was atrocious. Really the most lifeless performance she has ever given. She seriously deserved to be 10 points lower in PCS than a non-perfect Czisny.

I thought Flatt's LP this year was pretty good. It might actually be better than Mirai's in terms of choreography, although Mirai skates better.

 

[trinity90]

I totally agree about the problem is the system. If we were still under the 6.0 system rather than the CoP system, Mirai would have one that night over Flatt.

 

[Jaana]

As mentioned in the article I think there definetely should be more TV-cameras to make it fair towards skaters and to avoid wrong decisions.

Well, it will be interesting to watch whether Nagasu and Flatt will be able to repeat their performances at the Olympics... Personally I loved Nagasu´s performance.

 

[gkelly]

As mentioned in the article I think there definetely should be more TV-cameras to make it fair towards skaters and to avoid wrong decisions.

There are lots of TV cameras at televised events, especially when there's a network involved that likes to cut different angles together to shape their coverage of each program.

The technical panel only uses one official video, though, so they only have one angle.

At events where extra camera angles are available because of the TV coverage, how often and when should the tech panel review the same elements from multiple angles? Every jump they review for every skater? One additional angle? Two? Three? People already complain about the time between the end of the program and the announcement of the marks -- this would easily double the time it takes.

Maybe just automatically for quads, triple axels, and combos that end with triple
loop or (ladies only) triple toe? Also every lutz and flip to review the takeoffs?

Or only have the tech panel request access to other camera angles for jumps that are 1) ambiguous from the official camera angle and 2) likely to affect the final results? The network cameras could somehow already be hooked into the tech panel's monitors and they could request replays of certain elements immediately after they review them on their own feed and find them ambiguous?

Or after the event is over, when they know who are the top three to five finishers are, go back and verify the calls for those skaters only, since those will affect the medals? But in that case any standings announced immediately after each performance would have to be considered temporary and subject to change afterward.

All this would require extra wiring and cooperation from the TV networks. And might not prove very useful if the TV camera that would have had the best angle on the blades was focusing on the skater's face instead for TV storytelling reasons.

At smaller events that may not have any TV coverage (e.g., JGP events), where would the money come from to pay for bringing in more cameras and camera operators?

 

[chuckm]

It worked out fine because Czisny deserved to win.

Flatt's LP last year at Nationals was atrocious. Really the most lifeless performance she has ever given. She seriously deserved to be 10 points lower in PCS than a non-perfect Czisny.

Rachael got just 7.32 points lower in PCS than Alissa did. Interesting, because Rachael outscored Alissa in TES by 7.60 points.

If Rachael's PCS scores were lowered by 10 points this year to allow Mirai to win, as has been suggested, that would have been another travesty. Rachael and Mirai skated against one another at Cup of China this year. Neither lady had a good FS, but Rachael beat Mirai by 5 points because Mirai got 5 URs. Mirai's PCS was slightly higher than Rachael's, but only by 0.88.

I thought Flatt's LP this year was pretty good. It might actually be better than Mirai's in terms of choreography, although Mirai skates better.

On the PCS Rachael outscored Mirai in Transitions, Performance/Execution and Interpretation.

Mirai skated to "Carmen", but that sultry temptress was nowhere to be seen in her FS. Mirai may have been girlishly charming, but she sure didn't portray the character of the music.

 

[chuckm]

I totally agree about the problem is the system. If we were still under the 6.0 system rather than the CoP system, Mirai would have one that night over Flatt.

And that would have been the wrong result. Figure skating is a sport, and has technical requirements that must be met to receive full credit for a performance. Mirai did not meet the technical requirements for 3 of her triple jumps.

 

[janetfan]

Mirai skated to "Carmen", but that sultry temptress was nowhere to be seen in her FS. Mirai may have been girlishly charming, but she sure didn't portray the character of the music.

There is much more to Carmen's character that what we saw from Kat's program.

Carmen is not without humor or other feelings and this sultryness you have now mentioned several times is not the only part of her character.

Carmen does smile in the opera and also expresses other human emotions. Carmen is not a one dimensional sultry character for every moment of every scene throughout the opera.

And is Mirai smiling non-stop in her LP? Does she ever show any other emotion? Carmen was fiery and flirty, the confident Mistress of her own fate and not just sultry.

I think many fans enjoyed Mirai's LP as the ovation she received was reported over and over again from just about every source to have been the loudest and longest of the evening.

ETA: I think both Rachael and Mirai took a risk this season with their LP's with intent of growing and showing more maturity.

I think both girls did a good job on their IN and should be applauded for their efforts.

 

[Mathman]

^ Plus, it is not necessary for a skater to pretend that she is a character in an opera. I thought Mirai did a good job of skating to the character of the musical cuts that her choreographer chose.

(Maybe not quite as cleverly as Ryan Bradley, but still... ).

 

[lcd]

Accepting that the entire CoP is on the verge of being an incomprehensible math test for the average casual viewer and fan, a point that Hersh implies though is that for certain reasons, MORE information and more detailed scores should be available at the time of an event. Yes, not everyone can deal with a maze of numbers, but faster explanations would over time better educate an audience, is my view.

 

[Layfan]

Accepting that the entire CoP is on the verge of being an incomprehensible math test for the average casual viewer and fan, a point that Hersh implies though is that for certain reasons, MORE information and more detailed scores should be available at the time of an event. Yes, not everyone can deal with a maze of numbers, but faster explanations would over time better educate an audience, is my view.

Yes. And I get the feeling that's the one point most people seem to agree on. :yes:

 

[kyla2]

Educating The Masses?

I think the concept of "educating" the masses is condescending. The point is that you shouldn't need an explanation of who won and why. It should be apparent after watching the individual performances. The audience knows quality when they see it. When you have an audience (and a former Olympic gold medalist) who come to a different conclusion from the judges, there is something seriously wrong with the system of judging. COP is a disaster plain and simple. As Hersh said, you have skaters and coaches designing programs to amass the most points based on jumping passes. That is the only way a skater like Rachel could have beat a much better skater like Mirai. It is also a negative system in that it ARBITRARILY decides how much to ding for a fall on a jump (not much) and how much to ding for something else like an under rotation. All things are not equal and people are rewarded for trying a jump but failing. That's like getting points towards a touch down in football for an incomplete pass. It's just ludicrous.

 

[Layfan]

I think the concept of "educating" the masses is condescending. The point is that you shouldn't need an explanation of who won and why. It should be apparent after watching the individual performances. The audience knows quality when they see it. When you have an audience (and a former Olympic gold medalist) who come to a different conclusion from the judges, there is something seriously wrong with the system of judging. COP is a disaster plain and simple. As Hersh said, you have skaters and coaches designing programs to amass the most points based on jumping passes. That is the only way a skater like Rachel could have beat a much better skater like Mirai. It is also a negative system in that it ARBITRARILY decides how much to ding for a fall on a jump (not much) and how much to ding for something else like an under rotation. All things are not equal and people are rewarded for trying a jump but failing. That's like getting points towards a touch down in football for an incomplete pass. It's just ludicrous.

I think some explanation is always necessary. I mean, I am glad that there are commentators to identify the different types of jumps and tell the audience whether one jump is more difficult than other or what is making a step sequence more intricate than another.

But ideally, these explanations serve to help audiences understand something they usually can already sense - why one skater is better than the other or why the competition is close. When the explanations leaves everyone feeling cold ... that's where it could be a problem.

 

[Mathman]

...people are rewarded for trying a jump but failing. That's like getting points towards a touch down in football for an incomplete pass. It's just ludicrous.

:agree:

 

[Spun Silver]

On the PCS Rachael outscored Mirai in Transitions, Performance/Execution and Interpretation.

Mirai skated to "Carmen", but that sultry temptress was nowhere to be seen in her FS. Mirai may have been girlishly charming, but she sure didn't portray the character of the music.

I think this particular criticism is a bit silly. The music in Mirai's program represented various characters and moments in the opera, including the march of the toreadors and the "flower song" Don Jose sings when he's just falling for Carmen (before the opera turns tragic), as well as Carmen's music. Obviously Mirai wasn't going to try to mimic a bullfighter, a lovestruck lieutenant, and a gypsy in the space of 4 minutes. Instead, she gave a very high-spirited and confident interpretation of a familiar 19th-century score that's full of rhythm and melody. She had lots of flourishes that emphasized the music's Spanish flavor and hinted at the flirtatious character of Carmen without going into the actual story. You could compare her program to a Balanchine ballet set to a Carmen fantasy, rather than a dramatization of the opera.

Anyway, does COP demand that a sheltered 16-year-old vamp and act like Katarina Witt? COP doesn't even leave enough time for that. Anyway, Witt made very different choices. She or her team chose music that focused on the character of Carmen herself (no bullfighters!), and emphasized the sensuous and tragic sides of the character and opera, ending with Carmen's death. Obviously those choices led to a different kind of program. That in no way proves that Mirai didn't interpret or perform the character of the music.

 

[janetfan]

I think this particular criticism is a bit silly. The music in Mirai's program represented various characters and moments in the opera, including the march of the toreadors and the "flower song" Don Jose sings when he's just falling for Carmen (before the opera turns tragic), as well as Carmen's music. Obviously Mirai wasn't going to try to mimic a bullfighter, a lovestruck lieutenant, and a gypsy in the space of 4 minutes. Instead, she gave a very high-spirited and confident interpretation of a familiar 19th-century score that's full of rhythm and melody. She had lots of flourishes that emphasized the music's Spanish flavor and hinted at the flirtatious character of Carmen without going into the actual story. You could compare her program to a Balanchine ballet set to a Carmen fantasy, rather than a dramatization of the opera.

Anyway, does COP demand that a sheltered 16-year-old vamp and act like Katarina Witt? COP doesn't even leave enough time for that. Anyway, Witt made very different choices. She or her team chose music that focused on the character of Carmen herself (no bullfighters!), and emphasized the sensuous and tragic sides of the character and opera, ending with Carmen's death. Obviously those choices led to a different kind of program. That in no way proves that Mirai didn't interpret or perform the character of the music.

Bravo :agree:
I wish more people would read your post to get a better understanding about the role of music and character portrayal in skating.

It might help them better understand that Ladies and Men can skate to "Scheherazade" and that it is OK for both Yukari and Evan to skate to "Firebird" with different interpretations.

"Carmen" is used so much because it is great music to skate to and has wide audience appeal. It is also open to many interpretations. If it were not it would not be used as frequently.

I was not sold on Mirai's LP after COC and SC. I read that Lori spent time with Mirai in December adding things and polishing the program.

I have to say I thought Mirai's perfromance at Natls was majestic and it is easy to see why the crowd adored her LP. It is easy to see why Scott and Sandra got caught up in it too.

Let's keep it real and agree Mirai needs to work on those urs. Her presentation at Natls was magical!

Maybe not enough to win under the CoP but enough to remind many of us how much we love skating.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

I think the concept of "educating" the masses is condescending. The point is that you shouldn't need an explanation of who won and why. It should be apparent after watching the individual performances. The audience knows quality when they see it.

Then why is Transformers 2 one of the biggest movies ever? This part I'm entirely unconvinced by. It's not condescending to say "Hey, put in some effort, couch potatoes." Or if it is, it's deserved.

 

[janetfan]

I think that the tech panels are causing too much controversy.

Determining the outcome through replays with questionable calls the audience and even the judges can't see will never be acceptable.

Fans have two choices
1. Walk away
2. Fight for a better system.

When Janet Lynn's beautiful free skating made it impossible for audiences to believe she did not win it helped bring about change.

Is it possible Mirai can do the same? Is she skating's savior?

I am being facetious - but sometimes it takes a Rachael/Trixie Schuba skater vs a Mirai/Janet Lynn skater to make it apparent the rules need to be adjusted.

I think Trixie deserved her OGM because like Rachael, her performance was ranked higer under the existing rules of the time.

I still belive artistry in skating - and not just tecnical abilty is what makes it so special - and is what the majority of fans relate to.

We will see how the CoP developes in the next few years. Imagine Yuna winning the OGM and then retiring.

The ISU could find itself in a situation where not a single Lady was able to meet the technical requirements of the Cop while delivering a beautiful, inspiring performance.

Don't laugh - that scenario is quite real and could be only a few weeks away.