Mirai's Triple Lutz Unfairly Downgraded?

[Bennett]

I'm just confused because both of Rachael's 3f-3t were slightly cheated, about the same amount as Mirai's were, and she did't get UR calls and Mirai did.

The other thing is that Sasha and Ashley 2-footed a number of jumps, which is normally a clear indicator that the jump is UR, and didn't get UR calls.

Yeah, I have difficulty understanding these. Many of Sasha's jumps looked very URed. So did Rachael's 3-3 a little. Could anyone be so kind as to explain why from a technical standpoint?

 

[Mrs. P]

On URs, I would definitely give it minus 3 in the GoE automatically, but if it does not disrupt the program it should only get a minus 2.

The down grading is absurd, imo.

They do not downgrade a Lutz when it is presented as a Flip. Do they? It seems they bring in this thing called an attempt[ into the score to appease the Flutzers.

That's a pretty good point. So perhaps it should get the same deduction as a ! or an e maybe. I think it's pretty reasonable for a UR to be part of the GOE score rather than the base value.

And come to think of it, don't other sports take out points in execution rather than the base value? In gymnastics, for example the first part of a score, the difficulty mark, remains the same while the grade of execution score (which starts at 10.0 and is deducted depending on how the move is executed) determines the total score. I think diving is similar.

This is kind along the lines of what I think people need to talk about. While people were making some great points...all I could get out of the commentary was the whole artistry vs. technical arguments, how COP just sucks and will cause the downfall of figure skating, and so on and so on.

 

[bekalc]

And come to think of it, don't other sports take out points in execution rather than the base value? In gymnastics, for example the first part of a score, the difficulty mark, remains the same while the grade of execution score (which starts at 10.0 and is deducted depending on how the move is executed) determines the total score. I think diving is similar.

No. I seem to recall in gymnastics if a skill is viewed as underrotated or you miss a skill you can less the difficulty base.

 

[Mathman]

Edge jumps are widely prerotated especially in combos.

It seems to be next to impossible to use a loop as the second jump in a combination and not be guilty of pre-rotation. Otherwise, you have to land backward and go right straight up on the same edge without any rotation on the ice at all. I don't think anyonehas gotten a 3F-3Lo or a 3Lz-3Lo ratified this season.

I now actualy Iike the Liashenko approach (for sport).

I agree. Liashenko was criticized for "telegraphing," but what's wrong with that? She tells the judges and the audience, "See this edge? Check it out. Unquestioned pure outside back edge, right? Want to see it some more, just to make sure? OK, now that we have that settled, here I go!"

 

[chuckm]

All the CoP haterz will have to pray that the Europeans Ladies tech team won't be officiating at the Olympic and/or Worlds.

Tech Controller: Benoit Lavoie (CAN)
Tech Specialist: Claudia Unger (GER)
Asst Tech Spec: Olga Baranova (FIN)

In the SP, 15 of the 41 skaters received a total of 21 UR calls
In the FS, 15 of the 19 skaters received a total of 27 UR calls

The only skaters in the FS not to be dinged for URs were Kostner, Gedevanishvili, Sebestyen and Gozeva.

During Nationals, the earbud tech specialist David Kirby remarked that most callers are inclined to give the skater the benefit of the doubt, but there are a few who are excessively strict. I can imagine that when you get a tech team were two of the three members are overly strict, you'd get results much like the Euros ladies got.

However, I don't think the Nationals tech team falls into that category.

 

[FlattFan]

Thanks for the stats.

Looks like there's a pattern between long and short program.

In the long, even the better skaters who made it through the cut off got hit with plenty of downgrades. Did they "forget" how to jump? Of course not.

Mirai clearly fits the pattern to a tee.

 

[gkelly]

Looks like there's a pattern between long and short program.

In the long, even the better skaters who made it through the cut off got hit with plenty of downgrades. Did they "forget" how to jump? Of course not.

Mirai clearly fits the pattern to a tee.

It looks like both for both Mirai and the better jumpers at Euros, most of the downgrades in the LP tended to come either later in the program than any of the SP triples (i.e., fatigue may have been a factor) and/or on triple toes at the ends of combinations (difficult to rotate by the nature of the element).

 

[FlattFan]

So it proved my point: Jenny Kirt and those who think how could Mirai "forgot" how to jumps in the span of 24 hours are certified nuts.

"But they looked almost the same" said Jenny

Almost is the key word. You almost rotate one day. The next day, you almost almost rotate, then you get hit with a UR.

 

[janetfan]

So it proved my point: Jenny Kirt and those who think how could Mirai "forgot" how to jumps in the span of 24 hours are certified nuts.

"But they looked almost the same" said Jenny

Almost is the key word. You almost rotate one day. The next day, you almost almost rotate, then you get hit with a UR.

I think Jenny's comment was meant more as an opinion and her point was that tech callers might be getting too strict.

It is an opinion that many share - and certainly a differeing opinion from yours does make make someone a "certified nut."

 

[FlattFan]

I think Jenny's comment was meant more as an opinion and her point was that tech callers might be getting to strict.

It is an opinion that many share - and certainly a differeing opinion from yours does make make someone a "certified nut."

No, because she or you said the jump from the LP looked "almost" the same as the SP, therefore it should not be downgraded.
What kind of logic is that?

 

[Blades of Passion]

They said her 3Toe completes rotation. What do you mean "the commentators had hesitation?" They looked at the replay and said, yup, she rotated that jump.

No, they said it was within a quarter turn and by the tone in their voices you can tell it was just barely.

The real-time commentary for Flatt's 3-3 in both the SP and LP was "she hung on to that."

The real-time commentary for Mirai's 2Axel-3Toe was "WOW, BEAUTIFUL!"

It's ridiculous that the latter was downgraded if the former was not.

I'd like to invite you to be objective.

I personally even feel that Flatt's victory was fair. It should have been very close, though, not a win by nearly 12 points.

 

[janetfan]

No, because she or you said the jump from the LP looked "almost" the same as the SP, therefore it should not be downgraded.
What kind of logic is that?

It is an opinion and therefore subjective. It's meaning is both clear and logical to me. It is addressing the same lack of consistency some of us saw at Natls.

You don't have to agree with her but I don't think it is complicated or hard to understand what she was saying.

It would be similar in fact to what many said about Natls.

 

[prettykeys]

I personally even feel that Flatt's victory was fair. It should have been very close, though, not a win by nearly 12 points.

I agree. I know a lot of people believe Mirai clearly won (and I agree that she was the star of the ladies), but when I saw the event on TV I couldn't really say either way. It was too close to tell. But what did surprise me was the margin by which Rachael won...

I don't know if the American judges thought like this, but maybe they decided that Flatt has the best chance of having the highest placement of all the US ladies in the future international events, so they wanted for her to win and to do it with a statement. "This is our champion, and she won by this much!"

 

[janetfan]

I agree. I know a lot of people believe Mirai clearly won (and I agree that she was the star of the ladies), but when I saw the event on TV I couldn't really say either way. It was too close to tell. But what did surprise me was the margin by which Rachael won...

I don't know if the American judges thought like this, but maybe they decided that Flatt has the best chance of having the highest placement of all the US ladies in the future international events, so they wanted for her to win and to do it with a statement. "This is our champion, and she won by this much!"

I think I agree. What supports that strongly is that US Skating put Rachael in the very exclusive "200 point club."

I wonder if the margin of victory was stretched to make the statement Rachael is like Yuna, Mao and Joannie. She can score 200 points just like they can.

We will see how many points she scores in Vancouver - and for that matter how the scoring goes at the Olympics.

 

[chuckm]

Rachael's FS score (130.76) pales beside Joannie Rochette's FS score (144.08). At least scores in the low 130s have been achieved in the past by multiple skaters. No lady has every scored anywhere near 140, let along above it. If Rochette had not fallen on the 3Z in the SP (she scored 64.14), she would have gotten a SP score over 70, and her total score would have eclipsed Rachael's by nearly 5 points.

But Nationals scores are not meant to be taken seriously. It's a way of giving National champions a big sendoff, to boost their confidence. Personally, I don't think Rachael is particularly in need of confidence boosting, as she is one of the most consistent skaters I've ever seen. But that's Nationals for you.

If Mirai had completely rotated two of those 3 URd jumps, her score would have been a lot closer to Rachael's.

 

[FlattFan]

No, they said it was within a quarter turn and by the tone in their voices you can tell it was just barely.

The real-time commentary for Flatt's 3-3 in both the SP and LP was "she hung on to that."

The real-time commentary for Mirai's 2Axel-3Toe was "WOW, BEAUTIFUL!"

It's ridiculous that the latter was downgraded if the former was not.

I'd like to invite you to be objective.

I personally even feel that Flatt's victory was fair. It should have been very close, though, not a win by nearly 12 points.

Well, a barely within a quarter turn is, by definition, a fully rotated.
Outside of a quarter turn is, by definition, a double.
Rachael rotated her triples, barely or not.
Mirai did not rotate her triple, doesn't matter how flowy and high she got. She underrotated. NBC showed a clip, clearly showing she URed.
Since when does Scott's commentary become an objective compass?

I like you to watch the clips and not interpret Scott's and Sandra's tone to make up your mind.

 

[FlattFan]

It is an opinion and therefore subjective. It's meaning is both clear and logical to me. It is addressing the same lack of consistency some of us saw at Natls.

You don't have to agree with her but I don't think it is complicated or hard to understand what she was saying.

It would be similar in fact to what many said about Natls.

I think it's particularly complicated to understand what she/you were saying.
It's like someone said, "in my opinion, 89 degree = 91 degree"
It's an opinion and therefore subjective, but it does not make it logical or sane.

So yeah, I still don't understand what she/you were saying/trying to say/meaning to say/saying what she/you mean.

 

[janetfan]

I think it's particularly complicated to understand what she/you were saying.
It's like someone said, "in my opinion, 89 degree = 91 degree"
It's an opinion and therefore subjective, but it does not make it logical or sane.

So yeah, I still don't understand what she/you were saying/trying to say/meaning to say/saying what she/you mean.

So you are saying it is simple to see the difference between 89 degrees and 91 degress?

When it pertains to a jump I have my doubts about that.

I think I will go with Jenny on this point. :yes:

 

[FlattFan]

So you are saying it is simple to see the difference between 89 degrees and 91 degress?

When it pertains to a jump I have my doubts about that.

I think I will go with Jenny on this point. :yes:

I'm not saying it is simple to see the difference betwen 89 and 91. I'm saying there's a difference between 89 and 91. One is a double, one is a triple. Almost is almost, almost is not exact. Just because Jenny think it's almost the same doesn't mean it is the same and an invalid downgrade.
Please do not twist my words. And in my opinion, Jenny is an idiot for saying "almost" to make a case for why a jump should not be downgraded.

 

[janetfan]

Here is a link to Jenny's blog about Mirai, COC, UR's and CoP

It seems to fit the topic and thought it might add some insight for those who missed it.

http://trueslant.com/jenniferkirk/2...skaters-routines-best-for-the-sport/#more-898